applying finish too early.

[Gretch Flo]

Ok-been thinking of this for awhile-need new food discussion for fodder as has been mentioned.
I mostly turn greenish (some dead wood 1- sev years old) Most wood doen;t wet my shoulder. I turn 12" and below most of the time-bowls. usually 3/8" thick ]and below and usually dries in 5-20 days (oak taking the longest),according to my moisture meter.
(wagner 609.,)
Alot of discussion has been centered on when the wood is stablized for finishing.-whether it is weighing, or meter. When the meter no longer changes over a few days I consider it "stable" for adding a Danish oil, or Mahoney's walnut oil. Lately, I have been wet and dry finishing on the lathe 1-3 coats of Mylands sanding sealer (which makes the amounts of danish oil or mahoney;'s oil less), and then Deft's danish oil sanded in and wiped dry at 600, 800grit.. It has not really "stablizede at that point.
I think it is getting to the finish I want. It sets on the upstairs table to dry and when "stable" with meter, add more coats of either. Trying to get a satin and yet somewhat shiny coat. Some woods just get dull with Mahoney;s, especially after a few days to a week., Too many coats make hand buffing tedious.
Sooooo My question is I am adding some danish finish when not totally dry and yet wipe it off right away along with the saw dust.I think it may help prevent cracking.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH ADDING THIS KIND OF FINISH IF IT IS NOT "BONE" DRY"-WARPING IS NOT THE ISSUE. Does it cloud the finish? I haven;t really seen the problem but think about is especially when there is all this discussion about waiting for it to stablize. Gretch

 

[Odie]

Hi Gretch......

I'm not sure I'm understanding your questions the way you intend them to be understood.

Do you have any photos to show us exactly what you are asking?

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

You probably have moisture working its way up from below beneath your finish. Check "blush." Applies to the sealer. Three coats is a finish, not a sealer in my opinion.

The moisture coming out sort of makes an emulsion of the uncured oil, too. Especially if it's forced to stay on or near the surface rather than sinking and spreading in.

Bag in plastic and easy nuke your turning if you are impatient. Better it should be too dry than too wet.

 

[Barbara Gill]

I use a penetrating oil finish. I found that if I put the finish on when the wood is still wet it is not as transparent as when the wood is dry. I have also found that the water will eventually leave the wood and the finish will be fine.

 

[Gretch Flo]

finishing too early.

I guess I wasn't clear. I DO Not have a problem the way I am doing it in the final outcome. Just wondering IF it had moisture and hadn't "stablized" ( many of the discussions on this forum discuss how to tell WHEN it is "stable" (weighing it, meter). before finishing. )
What happens if it isn't really "stable" (concerning moisture). Does it ruin the finish????
Barbara answered it (at least with penetrating oil -which is similar to what I use). Thanks.

 

[MichaelMouse]

You answered your own question -"I think it is getting to the finish I want. It sets on the upstairs table to dry and when "stable" with meter, add more coats of either- if you were concerned only with the long view. Can tell you what has caused the observed problem - and did. Eventually the dissimilar substance will out, as you mentioned. Depends on whether you are willing to wait for the final product to stabilize by evaporating through your obstacles or just from bare wood, which takes much less time.

I prefer to let things dry, even to the point of giving them a bit of help if I'm in a hurry.

 

[Odie]

I guess I wasn't clear. I DO Not have a problem the way I am doing it in the final outcome. Just wondering IF it had moisture and hadn't "stablized" ( many of the discussions on this forum discuss how to tell WHEN it is "stable" (weighing it, meter). before finishing. )
What happens if it isn't really "stable" (concerning moisture). Does it ruin the finish????
Barbara answered it (at least with penetrating oil -which is similar to what I use). Thanks.

Just wondering, Gretch.......

Is there a specific reason you wish to apply a finish prior to the point where the moisture content has stabilized to your locality? .....any benefit to this that you are seeing?

To respond to your question, it's my belief that stabilization is best realized by weight. The moisture meter (mine is an older mini Ligno E) does not give conclusive evidence that stabilization is complete, simply because you will get different readings at different locations on the wood. The moisture meter is best for initial indication of moisture content, but weight taken over intervals of time is very conclusive.......loss of weight means it isn't done yet, where a weight that is unchanged over time.....is! Patience is a virtue!

Once the wood is anywhere near the final shape, not too many of us wish to push those prongs of the moisture meter into the wood for testing, as well.

ooc

 

[Gretch Flo]

moisture meter

"Is there a specific reason you wish to apply a finish prior to the point where the moisture content has stabilized to your locality? .....any benefit to this that you are seeing?"

No-just wondering what would happen if it weren't entirely stable. The only answer I have yet is from Barbara where it clouds the finish which is what I suspected. There has been so much discussion about bagging and weighing and writing it down and redoing, alcohol etc.etc, So what if is has a few more drops of moisture to go was my question is using an oil finish, which we can use if wet and dry sanding the wet wood. I was just curious.


"To respond to your question, it's my belief that stabilization is best realized by weight. The moisture meter (mine is an older mini Ligno E) does not give conclusive evidence that stabilization is complete, simply because you will get different readings at different locations on the wood.".

Odie, with the wagner pinless(radio waves penetrate1/2",3/4" or 1" deep into the wood (model dependent), even if there is finish on it. , you can scan instantaneously in several spots (heart wood, sap wood, crotch figure, knots, spalting, thicker areas (rim or base) etc). I keep tract in my head the readings and can't watch them go down almost daily in thinnish bowls. Yes, Michael, I have seen the figures go UP when the humidity goes up in the summer!!!!When the various areas stop going down I figure it is "stablized.I have not seen a problem (that I recognize) doing it this way. Many people on this forum don't believe or trust my meter-granted it is expensive-used to cost $134-now closer to $200. It was a gift. So I am not seeing a problem beginning my finish the way I do, and was curious as to what to look for if I am misinterpreting moisture stablization.

The moisture meter is best for initial indication of moisture content, but weight taken over intervals of time is very conclusive.......loss of weight means it isn't done yet, where a weight that is unchanged over time.....is! Patience is a virtue!"
See my comments above. I just see where the red dot stops in its daily/weekly descent-in various areas of the bowl and doesn't go further.Takes about 2-3 seconds to scan 3-4 areas when I do it.

"Once the wood is anywhere near the final shape, not too many of us wish to push those prongs of the moisture meter into the wood for testing, as well."
This is pinless as explained above. I love my meter!!!!!!! Gretch

ooc[/QUOTE]

 

[Odie]

"Is there a specific reason you wish to apply a finish prior to the point where the moisture content has stabilized to your locality? .....any benefit to this that you are seeing?"

No-just wondering what would happen if it weren't entirely stable. The only answer I have yet is from Barbara where it clouds the finish which is what I suspected. There has been so much discussion about bagging and weighing and writing it down and redoing, alcohol etc.etc, So what if is has a few more drops of moisture to go was my question is using an oil finish, which we can use if wet and dry sanding the wet wood. I was just curious.


"To respond to your question, it's my belief that stabilization is best realized by weight. The moisture meter (mine is an older mini Ligno E) does not give conclusive evidence that stabilization is complete, simply because you will get different readings at different locations on the wood.".

Odie, with the wagner pinless(radio waves penetrate1/2",3/4" or 1" deep into the wood (model dependent), even if there is finish on it. , you can scan instantaneously in several spots (heart wood, sap wood, crotch figure, knots, spalting, thicker areas (rim or base) etc). I keep tract in my head the readings and can't watch them go down almost daily in thinnish bowls. Yes, Michael, I have seen the figures go UP when the humidity goes up in the summer!!!!When the various areas stop going down I figure it is "stablized.I have not seen a problem (that I recognize) doing it this way. Many people on this forum don't believe or trust my meter-granted it is expensive-used to cost $134-now closer to $200. It was a gift. So I am not seeing a problem beginning my finish the way I do, and was curious as to what to look for if I am misinterpreting moisture stablization.

The moisture meter is best for initial indication of moisture content, but weight taken over intervals of time is very conclusive.......loss of weight means it isn't done yet, where a weight that is unchanged over time.....is! Patience is a virtue!"
See my comments above. I just see where the red dot stops in its daily/weekly descent-in various areas of the bowl and doesn't go further.Takes about 2-3 seconds to scan 3-4 areas when I do it.

"Once the wood is anywhere near the final shape, not too many of us wish to push those prongs of the moisture meter into the wood for testing, as well."
This is pinless as explained above. I love my meter!!!!!!! Gretch

ooc

Hi Gretch.......

Since your moisture meter is pinless, that would make it much more attractive for using.......thanks for letting us know about that. I guess I've just been oblivious to the newest moisture meters! Looks like you may have matters under control!

As far as introducing water into the finishing equation......I don't have any personal experience with this, but I'd imagine it can't be good for the final result. Sounds like what I would suspect is a problem, is so....... I've always put in extra effort to insure my roughed bowls are completely dry before finishing them off.....

Later lady......

ooc

 

[bonsaipeter]

If you are trying to achieve the shortest time possible between turning/sanding of you bowls and application of the final coat of an oil finish, it is best to let the bowl dry to completion (weighing is fast, simple, and foolproof) before the application of any sealer or finish. Any sealer or finish will impede the drying process and actually extend the drying to completion time if applied to wet wood. My favorite way to turn a bowl from green wood is to first rough turn it to approximate shape (leaving the wall thickness approximately 10% of the overall diameter of the bowl), letting it air dry to completion (checking by the weight change method) and then re-turning the bowl to final shape, sand, and apply finish. I too favor a Danish Oil finish. I have found that if I want a bit of a "sheen", but not a gloss, that several coats (4 - 6) are required. The best method I have found is to first apply the finish as recommended by the manufacturer, usually heavy first coat followed by a second coat after 30 minutes and then wiping off the excess and lightly buffing after 15 minutes and then letting it dry for 12 hours. However, before applying subsequent coats to build a "sheen" I have found that the initial two coats as recommended by the manufacturer (Watco) must really cure for at least two full days. Unless you do this subsequent coats cure extremely slowly. Now you can apply additional coats of the Danish Oil at a rate of one per day until you achieve the degree of "sheen" you desire. Overall I have found this to be the quickest way to go from green log to final, salable bowl.

Enjoy, Peter

 

[Gretch Flo]

finish

If you are trying to achieve the shortest time possible between turning/sanding of you bowls and application of the final coat of an oil finish, it is best to let the bowl dry to completion (weighing is fast, simple, and foolproof) before the application of any sealer or finish. Any sealer or finish will impede the drying process and actually extend the drying to completion time if applied to wet wood. My favorite way to turn a bowl from green wood is to first rough turn it to approximate shape (leaving the wall thickness approximately 10% of the overall diameter of the bowl), letting it air dry to completion (checking by the weight change method) and then re-turning the bowl to final shape, sand, and apply finish. I too favor a Danish Oil finish. I have found that if I want a bit of a "sheen", but not a gloss, that several coats (4 - 6) are required. The best method I have found is to first apply the finish as recommended by the manufacturer, usually heavy first coat followed by a second coat after 30 minutes and then wiping off the excess and lightly buffing after 15 minutes and then letting it dry for 12 hours. However, before applying subsequent coats to build a "sheen" I have found that the initial two coats as recommended by the manufacturer (Watco) must really cure for at least two full days. Unless you do this subsequent coats cure extremely slowly. Now you can apply additional coats of the Danish Oil at a rate of one per day until you achieve the degree of "sheen" you desire. Overall I have found this to be the quickest way to go from green log to final, salable bowl.

Enjoy, Peter

Peter-I am now using deft danish finish-not sure the diff with Watco_Used to use General Finish Danish oil and I like Deft much better. I have an old can of watco, and it doesn't list the ingredients. Proprietary I'd guess. Deft has urethane and tung oil and who knows what else. I too like the sheen and not the plasticy gloss. If I use sanding sealer during the sanding process (which takes more time), it lessens the danish oil coats I have to apply later. I guess it helps even up the absorption of the finish-this is especially helpful and I put on 2 coats of sanding sealer if I know the wood is thirsty-like sycamore, or lots of spalting, or ambrosia maple. The sanding sealer is also helpful on small spindle turning, and I get a shine without lots of coats.I also use wet/and dry at the end of sanding (600-800 on bowls and 1000-1200 on handles) with the danish oil finish and wipe dry.
So this may speed down the drying on "Green" turning and lessenen any cracking. The ones that crack are probably the ones where I didn't cut away enuf of the cracks in the logs (Michael reminded me a few weeks ago to check with min spirits first to see that the cracks have been band sawed out)., or some sap wood that notoriously cracks, say on Bk walnut, some locusts. I used to double turn but it extends the labor by ??? 30-50%. I don't turn much stuff over 12" tho, Gretch

 

[MichaelMouse]

I am now using deft danish finish-not sure the diff with Watco_Used to use General Finish Danish oil and I like Deft much better. I have an old can of watco, and it doesn't list the ingredients. Proprietary I'd guess. Deft has urethane and tung oil and who knows what else. I too like the sheen and not the plasticy gloss.

Yeah, tung oil doesn't cure as clear as modified soy or linseed. So it's a bit off, but not a complete satin. WATCO used to have a phenolic resin, went to alkyd when it was with Thompson-Minwax, and I think it's back to phenolic now with RustOleum. The oil says linseed.

I have a can of the Deft Danish that I really should burn off, because it's tung-mixed, and I can't take the smell. I also prefer clarity over scatter in the finish.

All kinds of general information on finishes. http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=567

 

[Odie]

If you are trying to achieve the shortest time possible between turning/sanding of you bowls and application of the final coat of an oil finish, it is best to let the bowl dry to completion (weighing is fast, simple, and foolproof) before the application of any sealer or finish. Any sealer or finish will impede the drying process and actually extend the drying to completion time if applied to wet wood. My favorite way to turn a bowl from green wood is to first rough turn it to approximate shape (leaving the wall thickness approximately 10% of the overall diameter of the bowl), letting it air dry to completion (checking by the weight change method) and then re-turning the bowl to final shape, sand, and apply finish. I too favor a Danish Oil finish. I have found that if I want a bit of a "sheen", but not a gloss, that several coats (4 - 6) are required. The best method I have found is to first apply the finish as recommended by the manufacturer, usually heavy first coat followed by a second coat after 30 minutes and then wiping off the excess and lightly buffing after 15 minutes and then letting it dry for 12 hours. However, before applying subsequent coats to build a "sheen" I have found that the initial two coats as recommended by the manufacturer (Watco) must really cure for at least two full days. Unless you do this subsequent coats cure extremely slowly. Now you can apply additional coats of the Danish Oil at a rate of one per day until you achieve the degree of "sheen" you desire. Overall I have found this to be the quickest way to go from green log to final, salable bowl.

Enjoy, Peter

bonsaipeter.........

Your methods are identical to mine!.......and, the most common (and best) way to do it, I think.

I suspected Gretch's purpose was to eliminate some of the time element, and unless you use ovens, kilns, or microwaves, there really isn't any way to speed up the process without introducing uncontrolled results.......and failures!

Many of my roughed and seasoned bowls take up to a year to stabilize......some more.......but, it's a "tried and true" method that works and works well, with a minimum of failed results. I weigh roughed/anchorsealed bowls on a monthly basis, and it's been my habit of calling it good if I get three consecutive months of unchanged weight. With this method, it's obvious that the minimum seasoning time will be three months. My guess is 50 percent of the roughed bowls are stabilized within six to eight months, and probably only 10-15 percent need a year, or more, to stabilize.

If the initial reading with the Mini Ligno E moisture meter is in the 10-12 percent range, I need to make a decision whether to rough and season a blank, or go directly for a finished turning. Below that percentage, and I call it good. Above that, and I rough it out and begin the seasoning process.

ooc