another newbie want/need

[Sam Fleisher]

Just starting out and my memory isn't what it used to be and I'm sure the answer might be each is different, but.

I was thinking of making myself some printed out helper pages to hang on the wall behind my lathe.

Ones describing the safest way to do things like cutting above the center line with certain tools and below with other tools. How working inside a bowl differs the center line from the outside.

Things you should never do with a bowl gouge or spindle, skew etc..

Now I find myself switching tools like to a scraper on the inside and have to think, "was that handle up or down on the center line?"

Correct orientation for the flute starting a cut and so forth.

Is there someplace these are listed already or can we write some down here to get me started?

Seems like you tube has some differences which is fine but I would like to have something right in front of me to look at instead of running upstairs to the computer and looking on youtube plus that gets distracting!

I'd like to train myself in the correct way of doing things before I get experience and complacent about stuff.

Thanks

 

[hockenbery]

Don’t know of any list that would meet what you are asking.
All woodturning dos and don’t are situational ….

Basic safety rules are good to post
Face shield on before turning on the lathe or grinder
Turn lathe speed down before starting the lathe
Position tool rest and set the height before turning the lathe on
Wear nothing below your elbows while turning. Tie back any long hair. Don’t wear any loose clothing.
Clear the floor where you might stand
Stand out of the line of fire

Now I find myself switching tools like to a scraper on the inside and have to think, "was that handle up or down on the center line?"

Basics for scrapers is never let the bevel touch the wood.
Tool level below center on the outside keeps the bevel off the wood
Tool level inside above center keeps the bevel off the wood. Angling the scraper down will keep the bevel off the wood too.

Correct orientation for the flute starting a cut and so forth.

Depends on spindle gouge, bowl gouge, object being turned, inside, outside

Put A B C on your wall. Anchor, Bevel Cut. Always do them in order

Anchor- tool on the tool rest not touching the wood
Bevel- bevel on the wood not cutting, cutting edge not engaged
Cut- engage the cutting edge by Somme combination of rolling the tool or moving the handle.


QUOTE="Sam Fleisher, post: 209078, member: 43723"]
things like cutting above the center line with certain tools and below with other tools.
[/QUOTE]
I can’t think of a tool I would cut with below center. Catches occur when the wood can drive onto the cutting edge.
This happened almost all the time when a cutting tool is used below center. Scraping below center is required on the outside of a form.

 

[Dean Center]

Sam,
I have several suggestions for you. You don't need very many tools to start out woodturning. The fewer tools you have, the fewer things you can forget. Over time, how to use those tools will become muscle memory, and even if your brain forgets something, your muscles will remember the proper use.

If you are doing spindle work, a spindle roughing gouge, a fingernail grind spindle gouge (3/8"-1/2"), and a parting tool are all you need. A scraper is not necessary. A skew is not necessary.

If you are doing face work, like bowls, a bowl gouge (1/2-5/8" with a 55 degree nose angle), and your spindle gouge and parting tool, are all the tools you need. Yes, there are other tools to use, and they have tricks they can do better than your bowl gouge, but your bowl gouge, with a 'middle of the road' grind, will do 85% of what you want very well, and another 10% OK. You will need the spindle gouge to get into small places and for making good tenons. Yes, negative rake scrapers or pyramid tools can help you make nicer work off the tool, but they are not necessary.

With this simple set up, the only critical message to hang on the wall would be "Never, ever, ever use a SPINDLE roughing gouge on a bowl." Personally, I agree with Al, that a sign that says "Anchor, Bevel, then Cut" would be helpful to a beginning spindle turner.

There are other important lessons, but you will learn how not to do a few things when something goes "BANG". And the lesson will stick.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

Basics for scrapers is never let the bevel touch the wood.

This would be a good sign for me^^^^

So in that situation, is the height of the handle more important to get the proper placement or the height of the tool rest?

I look at a lot of where people position the tool rest on videos and they'll say it's too high or low and adjust it but most never explain how they can tell it's too high or low and what it's doing to make them know it.

 

[hockenbery]

[

I look at a lot of where people position the tool rest on videos and they'll say it's too high or low and adjust it but most never explain how they can tell it's too high or low and what it's doing to make them know it.

My basic height for using a bowl gouge on bowls, hollow forms, spindles is the set the tool rest so when the tool is level to the floor it is cutting at center. I can then drop the handle and cut higher than center but leave the tool rest alone.

To check height I hold the tool level flute at 12 o’clock and check the cutting edge against the tail center or something I know is at center.
If I change diameter gouges I need to change the height. The top of the tool rest will be below center by the thickness of steel under the flute

On spindle work I usually like to be more on top so I set the top of the tool rest at center or slightly higher.
When working I adjust the tool rest for comfort. If I’m using a finger to support a thin spindle I usually drop the tool rest to a little below center. Just feels like I have more control.

These may be useful
.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

this helps, thank you.

Can tool height cause chatter? I was trying out my brand new 5/8 bowl gouge and could not get it to work like I was used to with the 1/2 I have. Or it could have been the spike knot I suppose.

 

[hockenbery]

this helps, thank you.

Can tool height cause chatter? I was trying out my brand new 5/8 bowl gouge and could not get it to work like I was used to with the 1/2 I have. Or it could have been the spike knot I suppose.

Your problem may be pressing the bevel too hard against the wood. Float it over the cut surface.
Could be something else. But having the problem with the bigger tool more bevel area.

Tool rest too low can do something similar making lots of mini-catches

 

[robo hippy]

If I had a list of all the things I should do up on the wall in my shop, it would take half a day to read it.... I would say, start with small projects, do them several times to get in the 'habit' of doing things, then move on to some thing else, and repeat.

robo hippy

 

[Sam Fleisher]

Sam,
I have several suggestions for you. You don't need very many tools to start out woodturning. The fewer tools you have, the fewer things you can forget. Over time, how to use those tools will become muscle memory, and even if your brain forgets something, your muscles will remember the proper use.

If you are doing spindle work, a spindle roughing gouge, a fingernail grind spindle gouge (3/8"-1/2"), and a parting tool are all you need. A scraper is not necessary. A skew is not necessary.

If you are doing face work, like bowls, a bowl gouge (1/2-5/8" with a 55 degree nose angle), and your spindle gouge and parting tool, are all the tools you need. Yes, there are other tools to use, and they have tricks they can do better than your bowl gouge, but your bowl gouge, with a 'middle of the road' grind, will do 85% of what you want very well, and another 10% OK. You will need the spindle gouge to get into small places and for making good tenons. Yes, negative rake scrapers or pyramid tools can help you make nicer work off the tool, but they are not necessary.

With this simple set up, the only critical message to hang on the wall would be "Never, ever, ever use a SPINDLE roughing gouge on a bowl." Personally, I agree with Al, that a sign that says "Anchor, Bevel, then Cut" would be helpful to a beginning spindle turner.

There are other important lessons, but you will learn how not to do a few things when something goes "BANG". And the lesson will stick.

They are thompson bowl gouges so I believe they are 60 degree. Close enough?

 

[Michael Anderson]

I’ll echo what Reed (robo) said. Most of what you need to know/remember will come with experience. Muscle memory helps a lot, as does reinforcing good habits. Very few things are dogmatic with turning, and almost every rule is breakable in certain circumstances. At this point, safety should be your primary concern. Sharp tools secondary, and technique tertiary. Creativity quaternary!

 

[Dean Center]

They are thompson bowl gouges so I believe they are 60 degree. Close enough?

The nose angle is whatever you made it the last time you sharpened it. Coming from Doug, the angle is in the ballpark of 55-60 degrees, I would guess, but the moment I put it on the grinder, it's not the same.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

When I was talking to him the other day he said 60 degrees but I had asked him because it was on my 1/2 which I have had for a while so like you said it has probably "drifted" even though I use the color with a sharpie method and see how it's sitting on the wheel.

I should probably get a cbn wheel pretty quick. What's the brand recommendation for those?

 

[robo hippy]

For CBN wheels, if you get one, get the 180 grit, and 1 1/2 inches wide. If you get a second one, get a 600 grit. The 320 grit is really not much of a step up.

robo hippy

 

[Sam Fleisher]

Any particular brand to look for or stay away from?

 

[Dean Center]

If you can afford CBN, it's really nice to have. Ken Rizzo's wheels (woodturnerswoders.com) are very popular, and the D-Way wheels are highly regarded. It's been quite a while since I shopped, so I don't know what else is out there.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

For CBN wheels, if you get one, get the 180 grit, and 1 1/2 inches wide. If you get a second one, get a 600 grit. The 320 grit is really not much of a step up.

robo hippy

Won't not having a coarse one limit the ability to change the bevel grind if I feel the need down the road? Or will the 180 be good for that?

 

[Michael Anderson]

Won't not having a coarse one limit the ability to change the bevel grind if I feel the need down the road? Or will the 180 be good for that?

You’ll still have the course white wheels for that, if needed. (Assuming you keep them around)

 

[Earl McLain]

Won't not having a coarse one limit the ability to change the bevel grind if I feel the need down the road? Or will the 180 be good for that?

A 180 CBN is pretty coarse, and will remove steel in good order for shaping. Coarser would be a little quicker, but for me the 180 also takes good care of my scrapers so it does double duty. Coarser i would likely only use for shaping (and i'd have to add another grinder, bench, make the shop a wee bigger, more heat, a few more tools to justify all that, another lathe, and then there's the legal fees. Think i'll stick with 180!!)

 

[Mike Johnson]

A few tool catches on the lathe is usually enough to educate the turner on what to do and not to do. Start off with smaller blanks and spindle type
items to develop your tool turning skills before you jump in on larger items that can cause injury if things go wrong. Turning some spindle items
will allow you to use most of the tools and develop proper tool technique while you incur some tool catches with less risk of harm when it happens.
Get a big tool catch on a large spinning blank and things can go bad in a hurry.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

A few tool catches on the lathe is usually enough to educate the turner on what to do and not to do. Start off with smaller blanks and spindle type
items to develop your tool turning skills before you jump in on larger items that can cause injury if things go wrong. Turning some spindle items
will allow you to use most of the tools and develop proper tool technique while you incur some tool catches with less risk of harm when it happens.
Get a big tool catch on a large spinning blank and things can go bad in a hurry.

That they will, make a lot of noise too!

 

[Darryl Fective]

I found a chart (based on diameter) that gives a general recommended safe speed range for turning. I'm on a new computer and haven't transferred everything, or I'd just share it here.

With scrapers, keeping the cutting edge meeting the wood at an angle less than 90° might be easier to remember than below/outside and above/inside.

If you use a chuck, your mortises and tenons need to be sized appropriately. Close the jaws all the way and make a mortise barely larger than the outside diameter. For a tenon, you want to size it so it squeezes just before being completely shut. going larger on either concentrates the pressure at only a few points rather than spread out around the circumference.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

Be careful with a mortise, I have seen a lot of problems with them where a tenon wouldn’t have had that problem.

 

[hockenbery]

For a tenon, you want to size it so it squeezes just before being completely shut. going larger on either concentrates the pressure at only a few points rather than spread out around the circumference.

Depends on the jaws you use.

On green bowls to be twice turned if I’m using #2 jaws I always make my tenons about 2.5” diameter.
Then I can get a 2” diameter tenon when it dries.
My vicmarc jaws have a perfect circle of 48mm(1.89”) With true dovetail jaws and ONEWAY jaws I get a stronger than needed grip on a 2.5” tenon.
You are absolutely correct that a near perfect circle diameter will be gripped more strongly than a 2.5” tenon.
But the 2.5” tenon does the job nicely.

Nova bird beak jaws have never held well for me on a 2.5” tenon. They do well with the near perfect circle tenon.

 

[robo hippy]

One video I did was 'Mounting things on the lathe'. As far as I am concerned, recess and tenon hold equally well, AS LONG AS THEY ARE MADE PROPERLY! As for grinding wheels, you will probably do more tool profiling in your early part of your journey than you will as you get more experienced. So, if your grinder has some of the old grey wheels, which can be 36 grit or 60 grit, then keep them, and if you want to do a big change in the shape, put them on. I have used cut off wheels on an angle grinder to get the initial shape on scrapers. I also have a heavy duty 1 1/2 hp belt sander with a 36 grit belt for 'serious' shaping. If you are in a club, some one will probably have some thing you can use. Some times, a saw shop may help you out, if you can tell them what you want. I would not consider a 180 grit wheel suitable for anything but minor changes in shape/profile.

robo hippy

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

One video I did was 'Mounting things on the lathe'. As far as I am concerned, recess and tenon hold equally well, AS LONG AS THEY ARE MADE PROPERLY!

robo hippy

Yes they will but a tenon won’t split your bowl in half when it gets thin.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

I found another you tube video that looks good but I thought I'd ask if it's good for technique or not. It is posted on the "Guild of New Hampshire Woodworkers" channel.

"Bowl gouge basics and then it lists two guys". The 5 cuts to master using the bowl gouge is the gist of it.

I searched but they don't come up as members. I hope I'm allowed to do this, I don't want to step on anyone's toes.

I just want to be sure since starting out that I'm starting out correctly so I don't have to unlearn bad habits. I still occasionally get a WTH happened moment that makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong or if even in the right way.

 

[robo hippy]

Rusty, I have never split a bowl in half when using a recess, NEVER, and that is with thousands of bowls. As I say in that video, you can over tighten when using a recess. This can put enough stress on the shoulders of the recess that while it does hold, even a tiny catch can be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I have torn tenons off, and I have blown up bowls up using all tools. Most of the time it is pilot error, and not the fault of the process, just me....

robo hippy

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

Rusty, I have never split a bowl in half when using a recess, NEVER, and that is with thousands of bowls. As I say in that video, you can over tighten when using a recess. This can put enough stress on the shoulders of the recess that while it does hold, even a tiny catch can be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I have torn tenons off, and I have blown up bowls up using all tools. Most of the time it is pilot error, and not the fault of the process, just me....

robo hippy

For me I had a few split while sanding. Never had a problem with a tenon.

 

[Dean Center]

I found another you tube video that looks good but I thought I'd ask if it's good for technique or not. It is posted on the "Guild of New Hampshire Woodworkers" channel.

Sam,
I scanned the video and the only obvious safety concern I saw was not using face shields, just safety glasses. This may have been a decision on their part as the face shield affects the audio component. I also did not see an exhaustive discussion of safety issues, and since this video is directed at beginners, that's a significant omission. However, this is part of a series, and somewhere in the series, there may be a safety video. They also have a curriculum, of which this video is a part, so they may intend for students to see the videos in sequence, with the safety video earlier.

As for AAW membership, Gary Trottier is a member and Ed Orecchio appears not to be. That's not especially important, IMO. The AAW screens videos and the ones that meet their criteria, including safety aspects, get posted to the AAW Explore web site feature. If you want to watch videos which have been curated for safe practices, this is the place to go. For example, you can see Robo Hippy demonstrate the proper use of support hose when turning.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Just starting out and my memory isn't what it used to be and I'm sure the answer might be each is different, but.

I was thinking of making myself some printed out helper pages to hang on the wall behind my lathe.

Ones describing the safest way to do things like cutting above the center line with certain tools and below with other tools. How working inside a bowl differs the center line from the outside.

Things you should never do with a bowl gouge or spindle, skew etc..

Now I find myself switching tools like to a scraper on the inside and have to think, "was that handle up or down on the center line?"

Correct orientation for the flute starting a cut and so forth.

Is there someplace these are listed already or can we write some down here to get me started?

Seems like you tube has some differences which is fine but I would like to have something right in front of me to look at instead of running upstairs to the computer and looking on youtube plus that gets distracting!

I'd like to train myself in the correct way of doing things before I get experience and complacent about stuff.

Thanks

I think that you are setting yourself up for information overload and instead of focusing your attention where it ought to be you will be trying to concentrate on all of the items on your checklist. Look at how the cutting edge meets the wood. Is the tool making proper bevel contact or has the bowl gouge lost proper bevel contact and gone from slicing to scraping? Is the bowl gouge oriented such that the cutting edge is being supported? Is the wood feeding into or away from the cutting edge?

 

[Jeff Nelson]

Sam, you might get a white board and hang it near the work station.
List off the obvious safety checklist: Face shield, Low speed start, Tool rest in position before start, no loose clothing...
Once you clock a few hours that start up procedure will be automatic.
When starting out it is information overload, that is because you are looking at all the turning aspects. Start with turning spindles once you get a dozen or so done you will have the what to do and not to do under control. Then move on to another aspect bowls or hollowing out. It will be much easier learning the basics for each turning skill in sections. Then if needed write down key things for each turning skill.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Unless one has a “photographic memory”, there is a lot to learn. I would propose you put together a 3 ring binder notebook sectioned off. Some thoughts on sections: spindle tools, spindle turning, bowl tools, bowl turning, mounting (chucks, faceplates, centers, etc).

For a turning session, pick a area of focus, pull out the sheet to use as you work. Repeat. Repetition puts it into memory. Make note of important lessons learned as you go.

Study what the various tools are for, how used, how not to use and why. With time and familiarity it will all start to make sense and you will need the cheat sheets less and less until you dont need them anymore - but keep them, you may not turn for a while and need to brush up on things.

10 years into turning and I still have my reference notes - sometimes I dont turn for a few months and need a quick review.

 

[John Legg]

Just starting out and my memory isn't what it used to be and I'm sure the answer might be each is different, but.

I was thinking of making myself some printed out helper pages to hang on the wall behind my lathe.

Ones describing the safest way to do things like cutting above the center line with certain tools and below with other tools. How working inside a bowl differs the center line from the outside.

Things you should never do with a bowl gouge or spindle, skew etc..

Now I find myself switching tools like to a scraper on the inside and have to think, "was that handle up or down on the center line?"

Correct orientation for the flute starting a cut and so forth.

Is there someplace these are listed already or can we write some down here to get me started?

Seems like you tube has some differences which is fine but I would like to have something right in front of me to look at instead of running upstairs to the computer and looking on youtube plus that gets distracting!

I'd like to train myself in the correct way of doing things before I get experience and complacent about stuff.

Thanks

Wow. You must be reading my mind! (pun intended)

I’ve got memory problems also and after no turning in 2022 while I tended to a family member out of state for the better part of 6 months, I’ve spent the last 7 months trying to make up for the time I was gone. When I started to turn something last week, I had to start all over again because I just can’t seem to remember all the little details and techniques.

I’m definitely interested in what you come up with. I wanted to make something similar specifically for my various chuck jaws. Tenon dimensions specific for each set, etc.

I have very poor short term memory. After about 3 weeks, most things are gone, unless I’ve repeatedly gone over the same thing at least 30-50 times and even then, it’s iffy. Well turns out that my turning repetitions were not nearly enough because I’ve forgotten the majority of the stuff I learned and practiced.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

Unless one has a “photographic memory”, there is a lot to learn. I would propose you put together a 3 ring binder notebook sectioned off. Some thoughts on sections: spindle tools, spindle turning, bowl tools, bowl turning, mounting (chucks, faceplates, centers, etc).

For a turning session, pick a area of focus, pull out the sheet to use as you work. Repeat. Repetition puts it into memory. Make note of important lessons learned as you go.

Study what the various tools are for, how used, how not to use and why. With time and familiarity it will all start to make sense and you will need the cheat sheets less and less until you dont need them anymore - but keep them, you may not turn for a while and need to brush up on things.

10 years into turning and I still have my reference notes - sometimes I dont turn for a few months and need a quick review.

I just need to make sure I'm doing the correct technique before I write it down. I thought about a tv looping you tube videos but too much dust!

Lebanon Missouri, isn't that where all the billboards advertising walnut bowls are?

 

[John Legg]

And I do understand in a unique way that others can’t appreciate, that muscle memory is not quite the same once you have memory issues. For me, I probably had 300+ hours (guessing at the number because I really don’t remember) of turning under my belt and now, while I’ve not forgotten every single thing, the majority is a big black in my mind AND muscles.

 

[odie]

One must remember that each piece of wood is an "individual", and just as it is with human beings, every one of them is different.

Because of that, what works this time isn't necessarily what will work best next time.

Whoever said "rules are meant to be broken" knew something only a few of us can comprehend......no matter how much experience following the rules the others who don't "get it", have!

-----odie-----

 

[Doug Freeman]

Lebanon Missouri, isn't that where all the billboards advertising walnut bowls are?

Yes it is. The bowls are nothing special to see, purely utilitarian. They are made from glued up laminations of kiln dried walnut lumber, no interesting design aspects.