Here's my questions. For those of you using Anchor Seal, do you coat your green bowls completely or just the end grain? And in either case, Why?
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Anchor Seal
- Thread starter Paul M. Kaplowitz
- Start date
Paul,
I live in a pretty dry climate (this year had a higher than normal average this summer) and found that I need to coat the entire blank. If I don't I will lose a lot of them. I have no choice but to dry them in my garage which I cannot control the humidity level very well. I have never experienced mold on my blanks under the anchor seal that some people do in wetter (higher humidity) climates. Since I started drying this way I have lost very few. If you have that ideal drying location in your basement or crawl space where the humidity stays fairly constant then sealing the blanks on end grain may be enough or you may be able to get by without sealing them at all. This question always seems to bring out the "my way is the only way" responses. I'll close by saying experiment with a batch from the same tree, if possible, and try it a few different ways and see what works best for you in drying conditions and location.
Good Luck,
Dale
I live in a pretty dry climate (this year had a higher than normal average this summer) and found that I need to coat the entire blank. If I don't I will lose a lot of them. I have no choice but to dry them in my garage which I cannot control the humidity level very well. I have never experienced mold on my blanks under the anchor seal that some people do in wetter (higher humidity) climates. Since I started drying this way I have lost very few. If you have that ideal drying location in your basement or crawl space where the humidity stays fairly constant then sealing the blanks on end grain may be enough or you may be able to get by without sealing them at all. This question always seems to bring out the "my way is the only way" responses. I'll close by saying experiment with a batch from the same tree, if possible, and try it a few different ways and see what works best for you in drying conditions and location.
Good Luck,
Dale
Paul,
I live in souther Indiana where the humidity is very hight in the summer. I coat the whole bowl heavily and I lose vey few blanks but i wrap them in brown Aldi paper bags and put them up on shelves in my garage for 6 to 8 months. Some of my harder,denser woods for 9 to 12 months. I will weight them for the last month to check weight loss first before turning. Gary
I live in souther Indiana where the humidity is very hight in the summer. I coat the whole bowl heavily and I lose vey few blanks but i wrap them in brown Aldi paper bags and put them up on shelves in my garage for 6 to 8 months. Some of my harder,denser woods for 9 to 12 months. I will weight them for the last month to check weight loss first before turning. Gary
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I live in Eastern Virginia. If I am going to bag a rough turned bowl, I cover the end grain inside and out and the rim. I rarely have a bowl crack. That could possibly be because of the Anchor Seal but it also could be because I store the bowls in an unheated/cooled part of the building and they dry slowly and the relative humidity fluctuates.
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I coat all my green bowls and put them in my bowl kiln. Coated it takes most wood about three weeks to dry. Uncoated it only takes about two weeks but I get more checks.
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Has anyone who coats the whole piece ever had the long grain split when they didn't? Providing there were no preexisting radial checks, that is. Has anyone in that group ever had a split from within rather than from the outer surface of an uncoated piece?
Wood loses moisture through the vessels ten times faster than through face grain, so the coating is used to keep the outside endgrain expanded longer. The outside is under elastic stress as the wood dries, so preventing the checks from starting keeps them from spreading as well. The inside and the long grain is under compressive stress, so it is self-healing. Coat the outside endgrain portions. Anything else does no harm if you have reasonably dry conditions, but, like alcohol, it does no good, either. If you have, or create a higher relative humidity by location or packaging, go without the seal. It can extend the damp stage long enough to grow mildew.
Wood loses moisture through the vessels ten times faster than through face grain, so the coating is used to keep the outside endgrain expanded longer. The outside is under elastic stress as the wood dries, so preventing the checks from starting keeps them from spreading as well. The inside and the long grain is under compressive stress, so it is self-healing. Coat the outside endgrain portions. Anything else does no harm if you have reasonably dry conditions, but, like alcohol, it does no good, either. If you have, or create a higher relative humidity by location or packaging, go without the seal. It can extend the damp stage long enough to grow mildew.
Paul,
I love your question and this topic (drying wood and how people do it) fascinates me. It was going well until Mr. Mouse responded. I have read many books and the forest service handout and articles by scientists but still like hearing other peoples procedures.
MM it has been awhile since I have lost a high percentage of blanks since I have gone to sealing the entire blank. You sir can poo poo it if you choose but it works for me with no mold. I have tried no anchor seal, anchor sealing just the exterior end grain, sealing both interior and exterior end grain, sealing interior and exterior end grain and rim, sealing just the exterior, sealing exterior and rim and have had way to high of a loss percentage for my liking. I rough turn to many to bag them and the size, shapes, wall thicknesses and species have been fairly consistent for the drying methods attempted. What cured it for me in my drying conditions and location (both state and shop space) is sealing the entire blank. I do not believe that this will work or be good for everyone because their conditions and locations are different than mine. I for one would ask you to be quite and keep your pompous responses to your self and let this discussion evolve. I am very interested in other peoples methods whether you, I or anyone believe they work or not.
Dale
I love your question and this topic (drying wood and how people do it) fascinates me. It was going well until Mr. Mouse responded. I have read many books and the forest service handout and articles by scientists but still like hearing other peoples procedures.
MM it has been awhile since I have lost a high percentage of blanks since I have gone to sealing the entire blank. You sir can poo poo it if you choose but it works for me with no mold. I have tried no anchor seal, anchor sealing just the exterior end grain, sealing both interior and exterior end grain, sealing interior and exterior end grain and rim, sealing just the exterior, sealing exterior and rim and have had way to high of a loss percentage for my liking. I rough turn to many to bag them and the size, shapes, wall thicknesses and species have been fairly consistent for the drying methods attempted. What cured it for me in my drying conditions and location (both state and shop space) is sealing the entire blank. I do not believe that this will work or be good for everyone because their conditions and locations are different than mine. I for one would ask you to be quite and keep your pompous responses to your self and let this discussion evolve. I am very interested in other peoples methods whether you, I or anyone believe they work or not.
Dale
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
I've been sealing end grain areas and the rim and foot. That has reduced my losses tremendously. Many of my losses were either in the foot or lip of the vessel. One thing that has helped I think is not to make any sharp edges. A sharp edge loses moisture faster I think, which is why they tended to crack.
In reality it takes so little Anchorseal to spread more than you need why not do it. If it helps. We all turn so many different varieties of wood and our storage and climate areas are so vastly different I don't see how anyone can positively say, this is the way it should be done.
In reality it takes so little Anchorseal to spread more than you need why not do it. If it helps. We all turn so many different varieties of wood and our storage and climate areas are so vastly different I don't see how anyone can positively say, this is the way it should be done.
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Fort Collins Colorado, eh? DRY. Pretty much the poster child for dry plus lower atmospheric pressure. Another in the list of the disregarded obvious, just as the fact that bowls do not split from the inside, nor along the side grain.
John's post brings up another important aspect of successful drying - shape. He seals the "foot," which is vulnerable, as are all bowls with broad bottoms, to splits caused by stress across the continuous grain at the bottom. I'm a recess guy, so I naturally have narrower bottoms than the tenon or "foot" types, even if they have a mortise inside the foot. Narrower there means less distance to air in the direction that counts, which allows the moisture to escape faster, preventing the split developed from dry around a still expanded wetter core. Won't prevent the gross splits that come late in the drying process from a bottom too broad. Five inches of continuous wood shrinks twice as far as two and a half, so the stress will be greater. Often enough to pop it even when proper care is taken otherwise.
He also mentions the rim, where the rate of bend in the annual rings is highest. I assume they follow a line leading back to where the heart is or was, especially on woods with pronounced ray figure. Plus, I am personally convinced, people tend to miss preexisting heart checks in their desire to get a deeper bowl. I've even become confident in leaving some heart checks in the piece, as long as they are within 15 degrees or so to the rim. I know where and can predict what will happen. They open, but it's depth that would be lost after the sides settle anyway. Why lose it twice?
Nothing against rounding the rim. Not that I make an effort to do so. Doesn't seem to give any trouble to leave it angled.
This is a great diagram. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/LogEnd.jpg Best proof of its accuracy is any stack of 2x4s at the local Borg.
John's post brings up another important aspect of successful drying - shape. He seals the "foot," which is vulnerable, as are all bowls with broad bottoms, to splits caused by stress across the continuous grain at the bottom. I'm a recess guy, so I naturally have narrower bottoms than the tenon or "foot" types, even if they have a mortise inside the foot. Narrower there means less distance to air in the direction that counts, which allows the moisture to escape faster, preventing the split developed from dry around a still expanded wetter core. Won't prevent the gross splits that come late in the drying process from a bottom too broad. Five inches of continuous wood shrinks twice as far as two and a half, so the stress will be greater. Often enough to pop it even when proper care is taken otherwise.
He also mentions the rim, where the rate of bend in the annual rings is highest. I assume they follow a line leading back to where the heart is or was, especially on woods with pronounced ray figure. Plus, I am personally convinced, people tend to miss preexisting heart checks in their desire to get a deeper bowl. I've even become confident in leaving some heart checks in the piece, as long as they are within 15 degrees or so to the rim. I know where and can predict what will happen. They open, but it's depth that would be lost after the sides settle anyway. Why lose it twice?
Nothing against rounding the rim. Not that I make an effort to do so. Doesn't seem to give any trouble to leave it angled.
This is a great diagram. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/LogEnd.jpg Best proof of its accuracy is any stack of 2x4s at the local Borg.
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I am inherently lazy...
or intensely focused on efficiency (depends on your POV)
I have a large bucket that I just dunk them in. When I am done, I hose off my hand. I can coat smaller bowls in seconds. Larger bowls I usually fill (using a smaller bowl) with anchorseal and swish it around. It's messy but really, really fast.
I also get a pretty good thick coating.
or intensely focused on efficiency (depends on your POV)
I have a large bucket that I just dunk them in. When I am done, I hose off my hand. I can coat smaller bowls in seconds. Larger bowls I usually fill (using a smaller bowl) with anchorseal and swish it around. It's messy but really, really fast.
I also get a pretty good thick coating.
A little off track here, but Anchorseal is a great product for a club buy and a way to save your members a few bucks. I am the co-op guru in our club and we recently purchased 55 gal of Anchorseal with food safe anti freeze. Including the cost of the product, shipping and a pump we were able to sell it to our members for $12.00 a gallon and still make a few cents for the club.
I found U-C Coatings easy to deal with and they provided us with great service.
George
I found U-C Coatings easy to deal with and they provided us with great service.
George
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Paul, where I am its wet so I coat the whole outside of endgrain bowls and all the outside but the flat foot on side grain. But I then kiln dry them. Experiment with your climate and come up with what works best for you. I teach a class on roughout and curing so like to hear what works for people in different climates.
I'm in Montana, and have concluded that for my purposes, coating the entire roughed bowl produces the highest success rate. The storage method contributes to the success rate, as well. Bowls are stored between spacers that allow for the highest surface exposure to the ambient atmosphere.
Isn't it true that drying cracks, otherwise cracks that were not present at the beginning of the drying process, and the result of the drying process, are almost always the result of too quickly releasing the moisture content? If that is the case, then it would stand to reason that speed of moisture loss is the problem, and that which prolongs the moisture loss is beneficial to the success rate.......Sealing the entire bowl can't hurt, and can only help, but may not be necessary in all cases. I choose to think of it as an "insurance plan" against drying cracks, and always seal the entire bowl. In my case, the results seem to bear out the theory.......😉
.......Not withstanding that one's particular climate may introduce factors that I don't have to deal with......but, the theory has been in practice for me, and it seems that slowing down the drying process is that which betters my success rate.
Mildew. This hasn't been a big problem, but I have had a few bowls develop mildew in the drying process. I'm not sure if the mildew was already a factor, but not readily apparent in the bowl block prior to my roughing it......or, developed afterwards. This has happened with roughed bowls with high moisture content only.....and were completely anchorsealed. Mildew, if caught early on, is only on the surface.......usually it is removed completely with a return to the lathe, and a thinning of the bowl wall, and resealed. Once the moisture content is low enough, the mildew will not return. It seems that it's the high moisture content, itself, that incubates the mildew.
ooc
Isn't it true that drying cracks, otherwise cracks that were not present at the beginning of the drying process, and the result of the drying process, are almost always the result of too quickly releasing the moisture content? If that is the case, then it would stand to reason that speed of moisture loss is the problem, and that which prolongs the moisture loss is beneficial to the success rate.......Sealing the entire bowl can't hurt, and can only help, but may not be necessary in all cases. I choose to think of it as an "insurance plan" against drying cracks, and always seal the entire bowl. In my case, the results seem to bear out the theory.......😉
.......Not withstanding that one's particular climate may introduce factors that I don't have to deal with......but, the theory has been in practice for me, and it seems that slowing down the drying process is that which betters my success rate.
Mildew. This hasn't been a big problem, but I have had a few bowls develop mildew in the drying process. I'm not sure if the mildew was already a factor, but not readily apparent in the bowl block prior to my roughing it......or, developed afterwards. This has happened with roughed bowls with high moisture content only.....and were completely anchorsealed. Mildew, if caught early on, is only on the surface.......usually it is removed completely with a return to the lathe, and a thinning of the bowl wall, and resealed. Once the moisture content is low enough, the mildew will not return. It seems that it's the high moisture content, itself, that incubates the mildew.
ooc
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Undoubtedly, your method is quick and efficient.......I have often contemplated doing this "dunk" method as well......😀
The method I use isn't quite as fast, but is as efficient. I keep a wide-mouth plastic container, about a pint capacity, for anchorseal in current use.....and refill it when needed.
For application, I use a dedicated brush that is about 2" width, and kept in a separate sealed plastic container. The brush never needs cleaning, and excess wax emulsion is simply squeezed out when put away. When taken out again for use, the brush bristles are simply flexed a little and becomes usable again.
I use a large square of freezer paper that is re-used over and over again to set the bowl on while the anchorseal is being applied. It's a bit crusty with dried anchorseal, but that doesn't seem to be a problem. When it gets crusty enough, I simply toss it in the trash and grab another sheet off the roll......
I'd guess it takes me not much longer than a couple of minutes to do the application, and the roughed bowl is dry enough to store away in about a half hour, or so.
(For technical accuracy, what I'm referring to as "anchorseal" is actually not a product by that name. For somewhere about 20 years, I've been using a product currently called "Green Wood Sealer" available from CSUSA. It's pretty much the same thing........)
ooc
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