Anchor Seal & Spalting

[Ed_McDonnell]

I stockpiled two big truckloads of mahogany this summer. Sealed the ends with Anchor Seal. First time I used the product. In the past I've used paint, thinned wood glue or nothing to seal the ends.

The wood was kept in a corner of my shop out of the elements (but not air conditioned). Took some out to work with it today and I've never seen mahogany that was so spalted. Unfortunately, I think spalted mahogany looks like poo.

The wood looks worse than some pieces laying out in the weather in my back yard with thinned wood glue on the ends. None of the anchor seal pieces cracked, so I'll give it that. Although Mahogany isn't usually all that prone to cracking if you keep it out of the sun.

Just spent the day taking it all to the dump. That was a whole lot less fun than bringing it home (which wasn't a lot of fun to begin with).

So, finally, to my question. Have any of you noticed wood sealed with anchor seal is more prone to spalting?

Ed

 

[Odie]

Ed......

I'm not sure if I'm qualified to respond to your post, but I see nobody else is doing that, at the moment........so, in the interest of inspiring some feedback on this subject, I'll give a few of my thoughts.

I have little experience with sealing logs, but quite a bit of practical experience with bowl blocks that are cut from the log, and then sealed.

The interior moisture content of the log might increase, if the sealed log is exposed to additional rain, snow, etc. (note: I just re-read your post, and see the logs are stored indoors.) I'm going to assume you, at least, cover the logs to prevent this. As I understand it, the spalting is a decaying process that is the result of a drying process. This drying process involves water saturation, heat, moisture evaporation, and a resupply of the moisture. Since you've probably eliminated the "resupply" of water in the process, you are unlikely to see additional spalting.......other than that which is the result of water already in the interior of the log.

I can imagine what your Mahogany looks like spalted.....not so good! Spalting, in my experience looks best on very light colored woods.

Too bad you had to take it all to the dump......couldn't be used as firewood?

Any pictures?

otis of cologne

 

[Wyatt Holm]

I have never had a problem with it. But with whole logs I try to use them as quick as I can, and not let them set out for a while.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

due to your location the humidity and heat was probably too much ,IMO

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

The thing that confused me is that some mahogany (from a different source) that sat outdoors in the weather (without anchor seal) had no spalting. The stuff I really took care of by keeping it indoors (and sealed with anchor seal) spalted incredibly fast. And it wasn't just on the ends. Went all the way through the log (some of it was 30 diameter).

As I understand it, spalting is caused by fungus. The first thing I thought was that the anchor seal was feeding the fungus somehow and turbocharging the process.

After thinking some more I wondered if Anchor Seal is a much better sealer than what I've used before and kept too much moisture in the wood resulting in more spalting. That's why I wondered if anyone else had experienced excessive spalting with anchor seal.

Thanks for all the input.

Ed

 

[Richard Baker]

All mahogany is not fungused equally.

 

[john lucas]

Anchorseal is just sort of wax in water. It can't really feed the fungus. It might seal in more moisture than thinned glue. I've had logs go bad from checking much faster with thinned glue and paint than I have with Anchorseal which is why I think it might slow down the moisture loss. Now why the logs inside spalted and outside didn't I don't know.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

All mahogany is not fungused equally.

Richard - To be on the safe side, today I bleached the storage area where I had stored the Mahogany. Tomorrow I'm going to douse it with fungicide. Just in case I got a batch with some super fungus or something. Don't' want to transfer it to anything else I bring home.

Of course, there are already probably spores all over the shop. Fortunately none of the wood I had stored anywhere else in the shop is showing any signs of spalting.

I still am leaning towards the theory that the anchor seal just kept too much moisture in the wood. Next time I get some mahogany I'm going to experiment. I'll put three pieces inside and three pieces outside. One with anchor seal, one with thinned wood glue and one with nothing. I'll compare results after 6 months and see if there is any difference between them.

Ed

 

[Richard Baker]

Ed,
Good plan, and should yield some credible and useful information. Please update us when the time comes.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

......couldn't be used as firewood?......

otis of cologne

Odie - I don't know anybody who has a fireplace. They aren't reall common down here. We only get 2 or 3 days a year where you need heat in the house.

Maybe could have used the wood in a smoker, but I don't know if Mahogany is a good choice for that. I've never heard anybody bragging about their Mahaogany smoked anything. Plus exposing meat to all that fungus may not be the best idea.

Ed

 

[MichaelMouse]

I still am leaning towards the theory that the anchor seal just kept too much moisture in the wood. Next time I get some mahogany I'm going to experiment. I'll put three pieces inside and three pieces outside. One with anchor seal, one with thinned wood glue and one with nothing. I'll compare results after 6 months and see if there is any difference between them.

Ed

You're leaning on good support. It's something that happens within a range of temperatures and moisture content.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/ii-2.pdf
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/producing-spalted-wood.pdf

What puzzles me is how mahogany could spalt at all. It's one of the most durable woods out there because it's loaded with fungicides and insecticides. Must be some odd Florida fungus. I've even seen people who claim cherry will spalt, but it never does here. Sapwood may crumble, but that's about it.

I bought anchorseal because everybody touted it, and I found that for my conditions - damp near the basement floor, it was an invitation to mildew. Black mildew has deep roots and does ugly things to wood. White, or hairy, seems much shallower. I use seal on the end of round billets reserved for rolling pins or boxes, but never on bowls. Plenty of room to remove the mildew on the end of the cylinders.

 

[Odie]

Odie - I don't know anybody who has a fireplace. They aren't reall common down here. We only get 2 or 3 days a year where you need heat in the house.

Maybe could have used the wood in a smoker, but I don't know if Mahogany is a good choice for that. I've never heard anybody bragging about their Mahaogany smoked anything. Plus exposing meat to all that fungus may not be the best idea.

Ed

Yep, I guess Florida is quite a bit different than around these parts! Ha! Using wood as a source of heat is a given. I've spent the greater part of my life living in two counties of Montana.......so, I suppose I probably am a little "out of touch" sometimes......

Yes......fungus......I suppose I should have mentioned that. It is what ultimately causes the darkening. I believe the process of water entering the wood, mixed with heat and evaporation, and duplicating the process, is a correct way of understanding how that fungus develops.

I'm thinking the fungus cannot survive as a living element of the equation, once the water evaporates.......am I correct about that? If so, then is it necessary to bleach your storage area to get rid of the fungus spores? Are they something that can be regenerated, or is the conditions within the wood what needs to be duplicated to "spawn"......?

OOC

 

[Joe Greiner]

Check out the etymology of the word "spalt." It won't be easy - isn't listed at all in my dictionary.

According to my very incomplete understanding, it arose from New England loggers using the quaint form "spoilt" to represent "spoiled," i.e. unsuitable for structural use, because of fungus or other degradation. Eventually, the past tense (spalt) became a present tense, and the new past tense became "spalted."

The AnchorSeal won't feed the fungus, just allow what was already there to propagate, assisted by heat and ambient humidity. Your different source of mahogany is probably an entirely different species. "Mahogany" could be the most over-used term in woodworking, describing woods that aren't even second cousins.

Your experiments will be most valuable if you make sure the samples are all from the same tree. Otherwise, you'd be comparing apples with oranges.

Joe

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

...Your different source of mahogany is probably an entirely different species. "Mahogany" could be the most over-used term in woodworking, describing woods that aren't even second cousins.

Your experiments will be most valuable if you make sure the samples are all from the same tree. Otherwise, you'd be comparing apples with oranges.

Joe

Hi Joe - All my Mahogany was the same species, Swietenia mahogani.

When you get your Mahogany right from the tree rather than the lumber yard, it's really easy to know what you are getting. We have one relatively common species of Mahogany here in South Florida Swietenia mahogani. The tree is distinctive and easy to identify. No way to confuse it with anything else. It's also the truest form of Mahogany (at least that's what we tell ourselves down here).

We will occasionally get a Big Leaf Mahogany Swietenia macrophylla, but the tree looks very different than Swientenia mahogani.

Even rarer down here is African Mahogany which will be one of the members of the Khaya genus. Even though it is not genus Swietenia, it is considered to be a true mahogany. As wood, it's a little less forgiving than Swietenia, but the wood can look really spectacular. I'll probably only see this wood a couple times in my lifetime (unless we get slammed by a lot more hurricanes).


I agree that when I do the experiment, the samples should all be from the same tree. Probably all from the same section of trunk.

Ed

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

...What puzzles me is how mahogany could spalt at all. It's one of the most durable woods out there because it's loaded with fungicides and insecticides. Must be some odd Florida fungus. I've even seen people who claim cherry will spalt, but it never does here. Sapwood may crumble, but that's about it.

I bought anchorseal because everybody touted it, and I found that for my conditions - damp near the basement floor, it was an invitation to mildew. Black mildew has deep roots and does ugly things to wood. White, or hairy, seems much shallower.

Michael - I was really surprised as well. I've had sapwood get grungy on old mahogany left in a wood pile in the past, but I've never seen the heartwood attacked. The beautiful reddish brown heartwood turned a dirty tannish brown color with blurry black boundary lines.

The only thing different this time was that I sealed it with anchor seal. I also sealed it the day it was cut so it was at maximum moisture content.

Oh well. Live and learn.

Ed

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

... is it necessary to bleach your storage area to get rid of the fungus spores?

Odie - My policy is "better safe than sorry".

Ed

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/ii-2.pdf
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/producing-spalted-wood.pdf

Michael - Thanks for the links. The blue stain in the sapwood is something I commonly experience with many woods down here. It's particularly troublesome with Rosewoods and Albizia because the light colored (unstained) sapwood looks really striking against the darker heartwood. Now I know to call it blue stain (although it doesn't look blue to me) instead of dirty grungy sapwood.

I see a lot less of the white rot fungus, although that would appear to be the culprit in the load of Mahogany (in addtition to the blue stain) I just dumped. It's pretty common in Chinese Orchid wood, but I haven't had any of that in the shop in years so I don't think that could have been the source.

The other big source of fungus that regularly gets brought into the shop is Norfolk Island Pine ("NIP"). We actually cultivate the spalting in this stuff. It doesn't really fit the description of either the blue stain or white rot fungus. I'll have to do some research and see whether it is something different or just a combo of the other two.

Ed

 

[hockenbery]

Ed,

I have had a sealed Beech spalt.
The real issue is that sealed or not wood goes through changes over time usually not for the positive.
Did you remove the bark from the wood?? this is where pesky critters and fingii lurk
Most likely the spalt seeds were in the wood and they continue to operate as long as the moisture is above something like 20%

I try to rough out peices within weeks of harvesting wood.

I have never had a roughed out piece spalt. I don't use sealer on them either.

Humidity is our friend, Of course we are much drier up here in Lakeland.
Actually had static electricty in the shop in January.

happy turning
Al

 

[MichaelMouse]

The only thing different this time was that I sealed it with anchor seal. I also sealed it the day it was cut so it was at maximum moisture content.

Oh well. Live and learn.

Ed

Wonder if you don't have a fungus attacking the sugars rather than the lignin or cellulose. Don't think bleach will do you any good except psychological. Spores are not metabolizing bodies like the fungus or bacterium that creates them. They are extremely resistant to any outside difficulties, even oxidants.

I like to ferment soft maple in the stack to darken the sapwood and build a bit of contrast. The smell of fermentation is unmistakable. Wonderful and yeasty. Of course, that's a bit different than a fungus which causes spalt, which is, I believe a German word for "split," at least in Physics. What's sort of ugly to think we tend to give foreign names, and the split-up ends of a spalted piece would qualify. .

 

[George Guadiane]

Ed,
Sorry for your loss.
I didn't know mahogany spalted, but I guess, I don't know why not.
If I understand the process correctly: More than one type of wood eating fungus gets into a piece of wood (even in live trees). They set up actual barriers (the black line stuff) that can actually be extracted in the end stages of rot and feels a lot like rubber. The barriers define territories - enemy camps with each breed of fungus keeping in it's own area. The spores could have gotten into the wood before you could see they were working, and sealing the ends just made sure that they stayed in the wood.
I usually use paraffin wax in a big frying pan to seal most of my wood and Anchorseal on the bigger and chainsaw cut stuff.
I noticed that I was getting spalting, even on the hot waxed stuff...
My thinking is that the fungus must be pretty hale & hardy, and can take the heat. That the fungus could get into the "system" from spores in the air and on the bark, then get into the wax. My entire wood storage room (which is about 400 square feet) is a spaltatorium, it seems.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

A point thet needs to be made is that in a shop that has high humidity, there is going to be fungus. If one reduces the humidity to a reasonable level, one will avoid having fungus. In central California near the ocean, where I am, my ground level shop which had been a two car garage has a dehumidifier running all the time I'm not actually there. The biggest benefit is control of rust, but it allows wood to dry at a reasonable rate and prevents fungus. I do use anchor seal but mostly on end grain.

The objective is to slow down the drying. A suitable method for doing this is going to be very different in different parts of the country and in different shops some of which are not heated and some of which have a barrier preventing ground moisture from rising through the floor.

Local advice makes sense as a lot of this has to do with cllimate. There ultimately is some trial and error involved.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[Jeremy Williams]

Interesting reading this thread ...

About a year ago I stored some (what I believe to be) maple from a fallen tree in my barn/shed. It was sealed with Anchorseal and loaded up on the loft of the shed. This week I decided to pull some down to turn, and I guess I was expecting it would look like the day I put it up there. Nope. The ends were black and moldy(?). I haven't cut into them yet, but probably will tomorrow ... hopefully it's not too bad.

How should one be storing sealed log sections? I was thinking maybe I need to build a little wooden rack for them that would let air flow around 360 degrees of the log.

 

[Burt Alcantara]

A few years ago I took possession of the good part of a willow tree. I cut the wood into small log segments and sealed them with WoodSealer as Anchor Seal was not available at that time.

All of my first turnings of this wood were Ivory Snow white. As time past, the wood took on more color and spalt lines. This puzzled me because I live in a very dry climate. I've found that some of the other woods I have that are stored and about bone dry as dry can be are also slightly spalted.

I'm wondering if the word spalt came from spoilt as Joe pointed out, mush the same way oil is pronounced "all," in the southern states.

Burt