American Woodturner article on spalted wood

[Bill Nichols]

At the end of the article, the author referenced a "poster" from the Mayo Clinic. She was real quick to dismiss the findings of this team of medical professionals and makes several assumptioms about the patient without investigating the facts. I'll save my opinion of the article for later although I do think the editor of AW should have questioned the authors dissmissal of this information.
What I will say is I am a good personal friend of the 61 year old gentleman refferenced in the "poster". This gentleman has no health problems or "probable compromised immune system". He is in excellent psyical condition, working out at the gym 2 or 3 days a week.
My friend came down with pneumonia two times aprox. one year apart, both times spending a week in the hospital. After the second hospital stay and the local doctors having no answers, he went on a search for some answers and that is how he ended up at the Mayo Clinic. Now this ain't no drive across town, its a five hour trip each way, and he made several trips for tests. Since his diagonisis, he removed all the spalted wood from his shop and it's been about two years since his last bout with pneumonia.
I'm posting this with the blessing of my friend because he wants everyone who reads the article to know that this IS a real possability so you can have more information for deciding what safety precautions you may need to follow.

 

[MichaelMouse]

"The plural of anecdote is not data."

-Dr. Dean Edell

Coincidence is not causality. We'd pretty much have to know what pathogen was discovered in the sputum. Then we'd have to find it in the spalted material to validate any connection. This sounds a lot like what we do under current NIH reporting. If the individual ever smoked, or lived/worked in a place where tobacco was used, we consider and report it as tobacco-related illness. You have to go to page two, but a few other things can cause COPD. http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/Copd/Copd_Causes.html

The tobacco survey is next in importance only to the wallet biopsy in medical information gathering.

 

[Richard Jones]

Never saw that quotation attributed to Edell, but I agree with the sentiment. Also agree with "if it ain't broke don't fix it." If the gentleman thinks there is a correlation with his pneumonia events, well, it's his body and he knows better than anyone how it feels. He seems to be convinced that the events were caused by the spalted wood, and no one can say that's not the case. Not turning spalted wood never hurt anyone, at least I don't think it did............

Agreed that better fact finding is important for any endeavor. Maybe the editor was tired when he got to the end of the article........

Hope your friend is doing well.

Rich

 

[davidwalser]

At the end of the article, the author referenced a "poster" from the Mayo Clinic. She was real quick to dismiss the findings of this team of medical professionals and makes several assumptioms about the patient without investigating the facts. I'll save my opinion of the article for later although I do think the editor of AW should have questioned the authors dissmissal of this information.
... (Emphasis added.)

Bill,

On what basis do you think the editor should have "questioned the authors dissmissal of this information"? First, let's assume that you properly characterized what was presented as a "dismissal" of the medical professionals' conclusions. The author, Dr. Sara Robinson, is considered an expert on spalting. (The topic is one of the focuses of her research.) Is it the job of an editor to referee a disagreement between scientific experts? The American Woodturner is NOT a peer reviewed academic journal and no one reading it should assume the editor has personally vetted all factual claims made within its covers. At worst, in this case, the author presented one side of an argument and then (in your view) dismissed that argument. How is any editor supposed to determine which side has the better argument without hiring a team of outside experts?

Second, I don't think it's fair to say Dr. Robinson "dismissed" anything. Dr. Robinson's not a skeptic that your friend's illness was caused by his turning of spalted wood. She admits the possibility and, in the body of her article, states that turning spalted wood can be dangerous. She merely pointed out that -- from the information that was presented in the abstract -- we don't know that the use of spalted wood caused your friend's illness. The abstract she quoted from said his illness may have been linked to the spalted wood he was turning; the abstract did NOT say spalted wood was linked to his illness.

Dr. Robinson then went on to explain how the turning of spalted wood and your friend's illness, even thought they happened close in time, may not have been related. Her point was that the abstract stopped short of claiming a casual link between your friend's illness and that we lay people shouldn't read more into it than that. If your friend's team of medical professionals concluded that turning spalted wood caused his illness, perhaps they should have said so in the abstract. Their failure to do so cannot be said to be the fault of Dr. Robinson nor was it Dr. Robinson's job (or her editor's job) to determine whether the abstract should have been more strongly worded.

 

[john lucas]

I am certainly not anywhere near an expert on this subject and don't even pretend to be. We as woodturners are around so many woods that can over longer periods cause problems. The dust alone is a potential long term problem. I think it would impossible to narrow it to such a degree as to say, this is the wood, or spalting alone cause this. Without a doctor actually saying, such and such, fungi, actually caused the problem I don't believe we can narrow it down. It could simply be too long of an exposure to a wide variety of woods with toxicity ratings.
I don't want to dismiss your friends thoughts. I might feel the same way under those conditions. It's just that there are so many other possibilites in what we do. I do think that we should be cautious in all that we do. It's one of those things that to err on side of caution is better than to just keep on doing the same thing.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Never saw that quotation attributed to Edell,

Where I first heard it. If you did a search, it seems to have come from everywhere or nowhere. He was fond of that analysis, as well as the "carrot correlation" analogy which covered post hoc research as well as "association" assertions in general. Since 95% of people who died of cancer had eaten carrots ... well, you can take it from there.

In the absence of data, we're left with post hoc ergo propter hoc. The assertion was given more than its due, in my opinion.

 

[Harry Robinette]

I sorta go along with Micheal M..If you want to turn spalted wood without a mask there are no Wood Police going to come for you. Like everything in life some things react differently to different people I'm allergic to Oak mold but only that. I can turn moldy wood of all kinds but if I turn moldy Oak I'm down and hardly breathing that night and the next day.
As always just my $.02

 

[Gretch Flo]

Test

I think to make it more scientific,the subject should be challenged.-have the subject exposed to clear maple alone, and several days later. maple with spalting-with no other variables. The maple wood should be dry, and then maybe tested with a "greener" piece of spalted maple . Lots of variables-sand to 200, 400, 600, 1000, etc> Think the patient would be willing????😀 Gretch

 

[Joe Greiner]

To be really scientific, you'd need more than one subject (~100), and double-blind. Any volunteers?

Her arithmetic for bleach is a little off. Household bleach is about 5-6% NaOCl already. So diluting it 10:1 produces 0.5% - 0.6%, not 10% as stated. To get 10%, use straight pool chlorine, usually 10% by itself. And wear gloves.

 

[john wallace]

Reasonable precautions

I bought a sheet of plywood at Home Depot yesterday and noticed that it had a warning about sawdust causing cancer stamped on it. I don't buy a lot of plywood and it's the first time I noticed it. I found another reason to wear a dust mask. Can't do anything about the sawdust from the wood I have cut, turned and sanded in the previous 45 years. I also turn a lot of spalted wood haven't had a problem. But, I also moved my lathe to the back porch. No more worries about CA fumes, solvent fumes, fungus spores, sanding dust, silica, grinder wheel particles and other stuff. Now I just have to deal with the heat and bugs. I still wear my dust mask, safety glasses and face shield or respirator when it's recommended.

 

[George Guadiane]

"The plural of anecdote is not data."

-Dr. Dean Edell

"At some point, the plural of anecdote can BECOME data."

-George Guadiane

I have and do often use spalted wood, so far with no ill effects. IF I ever have a problem that is directly linked to that spalted wood, I'll have to take responsibility for my informed (OK, as informed as I can be, based on the information and opinions available)decision to use it.
In the end, I think it is likely that a compromised immune system (and I mean maybe only a cold) might be the factor that tips the scale to danger. OR, it might be a genetic predisposition.

With the amount of information we DON'T have and the amount of science yet to do, it's difficult to tell anyone else how to proceed other than to say "use your best judgment and take whatever precautions you can to insure your safety and good health."

 

[MichaelMouse]

SO much misunderstanding. Some people think procedures such as are used in drug trials are necessary proof. Please! What we need to have here is confirmation of the presence of the pathogen, as I initially stated. Since the lungs and other tissues produce fluid in immune and autoimmune response situations, we have to rule in the infectious agent since we cannot rule out the other. Even fungi which are adapted to flesh, like Pneumocystis carinii rarely trouble a healthy lung, much less those adapted to feed on cellulose or lignin.

Fungal spores are everywhere - EXCEPT in the spalted wood. Consider the evolutionary dead end it would be to produce your potential offspring and then have to wait for a woodworker to release them into the air. The spores need to have easy access to the air - that's the only way they get about. Unless you're turning or snorting the bark - faggedaboutit.

Wood dust causes cancer? All the studies other than pure extrapolation from inorganic inhaled particulates indicate an increase in nasopharangeal cancer is associated with extensive time in the dust. Studies to determine which, if any of the chemicals in that dust might actually be at fault have not been made. Now plywood, with its adhesives, is yet another matter, as are the chemicals of choice in your finish, CA fumes .... Notice no study says anything about the lungs. Seems they're pretty capable of getting rid of lightweight organic material, even if, by some fluke, it manages to get past the defenses of the nasopharynx. The particles don't cut the tissue like sharp-sided sand or asbestos when the cilia coat them with mucous and push them up to the cough threshold. We do have "brown lung," a form of allergy, it would appear, which affected workers in the cotton industry working in virtually opaque conditions - byssinosis.

If you want to exercise reasonable care, take the bark off and brush the wood surface downwind. You may choose to wear a particulate mask, but be sure to wear one at the grinder, where you will encounter inhalable inorganic particulates, and your charcoal mask when you put those chemicals in the air. Yes, the chances are much less than the traditional "struck by lightning" that anything will occur from the first two, but the third is a real possibility. Pay attention to what is real, not conjectured.

 

[robo hippy]

There are 3 kinds of lies in this world. Lies. Damned lies. And statistics.

Mark Twain

robo hippy

 

[waltben]

There are 3 kinds of lies in this world. Lies. Damned lies. And statistics.

Mark Twain

robo hippy

Couldn't agree more. John Lucas posted one of the more reasoned responses to this thread IMHO. The only thing I'd like to add is the over-the-top 'fear mongering' that goes on about any potential hazard, not just here, but just about anywhere in our society today. Wood turning is NOT something to try doing without some basic knowledge of how to go about it. Neither is running around cutting logs with a chain saw, or driving a dump truck on city streets, or anything else along that line. Just some common sense would help a whole H*** of a lot.

 

[Joe Greiner]

Dump Truck

How NOT to drive a dump truck.

 

[KellyDunn]

We all find out what woods are no good for us the hard way. Here in Hawaii we have some really nasty ones. I damn neared died the last time I turned Silky Oak. We try to warn woodworkers but each has to find out if it gets to them or not. I had worked with it with no problems. Until I did.( no more in the studio and I will leave if I am near someone working in it) Had a turner die in Kona some years back from it. It closes up the windpipe. Doc told me if my wife had not given me benadryl I would have cashed in my chips.Told me next time the reaction could even be more swift. Legend says the gods choose who can work in Kou. Woodworkers tell me the dust comes with little barbs. If the phone rings and the room is full of dust and I lift my helmet shield and get a lungfull its like having the flu. Some folks are fine with it. Same with Milo dust. Not about the barbs but it kicks most of us. If I kick up dry fungal stuff from spalted wood with no protection The sneezing and runny nose starts in seconds. I see a lady who does a thing called neurolink. Tells the mind to take care of it. Kind of wu wu but it works for me.My reactions are so much more mild. She also trained in Bejing as an acupunturist(sp). Not saying either would help anyone else. But when I see her I take a list. Mold and mildew I bring up about once a year. She does tell me not to be stupid and to wear my helmet. Then she says I am not as young as I used to be so work smarter.

 

[Mark Warden]

Safety first

I think you all should take the safe route. If in doubt send me your wood and I'll let you know if I got sick or not when I turned it. I hear Burl can be hazardous to your health. 😀

 

[hockenbery]

Dr. Robinson makes points I find relevant to this thread:

fungi that cause spalting are not generally harmful.
wood dust is harmful
Some mold fungi that grow on the wood surface are harmful

Following her her recommendations
To work in a well ventilated area and wear a respirator
Would seem to provide adequate protection for the wood dust and for the mold fungi
And for spalt fungi if she were to be proven wrong at some future date about the spalt fungi being harmful.
She even allows that spalt fungi could be a problem for some people.

It takes a lot of data and sophisticates statistics to establish a cause and effect.
The rooster crows, we have dawn .......

From my observation, a lot of spalted wood gets turned by lots of woodturners.
If it were harmful we'd have lots of sick woodturners.
Certainly some woodturners have gotten sick.

I plan to continue working with spalted wood and to continue to wear my respirator most of the time.
Although I must confess, I often just have a fan at my face when I'm not generating much dust.

Happy turning,
Al