A quick ? about finish for a salad bowl......

[Odie]

I have a rather large piece of spalted maple that is intended as a salad bowl. Right now, it's bare wood and sanded to 400. Is it a good idea to leave the bare wood aspect and finish only with a coating of Lemon Oil Wax?

How well would that combination work for food purpose? I expect there will be some staining from salad oils and veggies.......but can this be seen as something that can be expected, but not detrimental to the overall usefulness?

Should I use a sanding sealer as a base coat for this?

The wood, although has some spalt pattern to it, is still very solid......no detection of rot, or punkiness to it........

Comments, please.......

ooc

 

[Paul M. Kaplowitz]

Salad bowl

I use Mike's walnut oil on all my utility bowls including spalted ones. Two coats and a quick sand with 1200 grit to level the grain.

 

[hockenbery]

Odie,

Mineral oil and walnut oil make a nice finish for utilitarian bowls. Neither will go rancid over time as many other organic oils will.
Both give a sort of dull finish. Both are easy for the customer to restore.

Any surface finish will give a nicer appearance but will abrade over time in use on the inside.

Waterlox is my preferred finsh for utility bowls. I suggest customers refinish the inside with mineral oil.
The waterlox is pretty tough and will last years but will still abrade over time. It will toughen the wood a bit too.

Problem with maple is if yours has a nice white color you want to keep you have to use a clear finsih.
Lacquer is the most clear.
Sometime the amber of waterlox will look great! The oils will usually sort of darken the wood.

In any case you might want to use a sanding sealer really thin lacquer as a wash coat. Sand with 400 then.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Walnut oil will impart some of its own color, but the ultimate finish on your bowl will be the oil that the purchaser chooses, anyway. I like to burn in a coat of wipe-on poly, which stays fairly neutral in color initially - think it's soy oil - then apply the second coat normally, making sure there are no shiny or dull unsoaked spots. P400 will dull out the shiny places, spot applications fill the soft ones. That way whatever oil they use won't get into the wood as quickly with the urethane in the way.

 

[Odie]

Greetings, and thanks for the responses gentlemen........

I appreciate what others are doing, but is there anyone with specific comments about strictly using the Lemon Oil Wax, and leaving it at that? Would this leave a satisfactory utilitarian finish that looks presentable?




MM......

I neglected to say it, but you've hit on the reason I asked this question in the first place. It's my wish to preserve as much of that white color in this one.

How about this:

Sanding sealer on the interior plus the lemon oil wax on entire bowl, and leave it at that.....?

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

Odie, I don't know if spalted wood is a good idea for a functional salad bowl (mushrooms are a type of fungus and so is spalting, but some mushrooms should not be eaten). I tend to associate spalting with decay and punky wood that can absorb food residue more than I would like to think about.

Something that I have used on punky wood on things like window sills and porch columns is Minwax wood hardener. It is a thinner than water plastic resin that readily soaks into punky wood and turns rock hard. I have also used it on some very punky turning wood. It is almost like soaking the material in InLace except that it is thinner. It makes the wood very stable and solid, but the downside is that it is hard to turn and then you can't use an oil finish since the wood has now been penetrated thoroughly by the plastic resin. Furthermore, I don't know if it would be food safe. It also takes a while for all of the ketones and other VOC's to finish outgassing.

But, to answer your question, I really like grocery store walnut oil which is the pure thing with no additives or VOC's. It is normally found in the same section as salad oils or sometimes cooking oils. It can be used to make a wonderful raspberry walnut vinaigrette salad dressing as well as for oiling your salad bowls and it smells great. I prefer it over Mahoneys Walnut Oil although I think that his product is also good. I don't care for mineral oil because it is a petroleum product that will never dry (it was in the ground for millions of years and will be on your bowl for many epochs before it dries, if ever) -- it just soaks into the wood and helps to repel water and that is about it. Linseed oil dries must faster than walnut oil, but has a smell that is OK for furniture, but not for a food dish and it will take a long time to eventually go away.

 

[robo hippy]

Any soft penetrating oil will darken the wood. I prefer Mike's walnut oil. You can use other vegetable oils. The main problem with the oils going rancid seems to come from leaving oil on the surface, which means you have to make sure to wipe the excess off. Also, the bowl needs to be out where it can breathe, otherwise, it can start to mold and go sour. If you leave food build up on the wood, it can also go sour. The walnut oil in the stores is pressed from the nut meats, and is frequently pasteurized. This slows down and/or eliminates the hardening properties of the oil, and I have heard that it breaks down the proteins that can cause allergic reactions. Mike's is pressed from the husks and leaves of the tree.

The problem with any surface finish, like lacquer, is that if the bowl is intended for daily use, the finish will eventually chip, crack, and peel, which makes it look terrible, and is impossible for most owners to refinish.

I will never use an oil that has solvents or chemical hardeners in them.

robo hippy

 

[MichaelMouse]

Any soft penetrating oil will darken the wood.

I will never use an oil that has solvents or chemical hardeners in them.

Any liquid will darken the wood, even the water you use to set up the fuzz. It's because the light is returned from a smoother surface - the liquid's - rather than from the wood, which has holes and fiber everywhere. If you create a film finish by neglecting those wet shiny spots I mentioned above, you can add color as well.

I see no need for a sanding sealer. You put yourself in the position of needing a mechanical bond for subsequent finishes unless you're all lacquer or shellac. Might as well go to the final for the first with the varnish.

Rancid is incomplete oxidation, so don't nest or confine the oiled bowls. I use the rule of thumb to determine when oil has cured. My thumb should not make a print when pressed and warmed against the surface.

Interesting observation on mineral oil. It floats on water. So if you wet the bowl with nice ionic solvents like water, it'll rise. A little detergent will make the water wetter, and dissolve the oil. Of course, if you don't wipe, but allow the solvent to evaporate, you'll keep the residue.

Don't drink the finish, and you'll never get close to a toxic dose of any of the current siccatives. If you let the finish cure, it'll be even tougher to pry those odd metal atoms lose from the big cross-linked polymeric chains.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Wax

Odie,

Any wax "finish", be it lemon oil or mixed with anything else, will be gone in short order because wax molecules are too large to penetrate dried wood. Any wax simply sits on the surface waiting to be washed away.

If you want to hold the color longer (nothing's forever) use some 100% dewaxed ultra pale shellac mixed to about a 1/2 lb cut (diluted SealCoat works). Wet the bowl with straight DNA then flood on the shellac so it soaks into the wood. When dry, hit it again by padding on the shellac (wipe off anything that doesn't soak in). When dry, sand with 400, then rub with a mix of white paraffin and mineral oil, and wipe dry.

Try this on some scrap to see if you like it.

 

[Odie]

Just adding this photo I took a few minutes ago. The bowl in question is the larger of the two here. It's Maple, 14" in diameter by 7 1/2" tall. The spalting is there, but so minimal that it's almost non-existent. There is also some very slight swirly areas that look like the beginnings of burl......but, very little of that.

When I turned this bowl, I was unable to detect any loss of good hard wood to the spalt. I have some of the Minwax wood hardener, but don't really see a need to use it on this piece. If I had, I wouldn't be contemplating using this for food anyway.......

According to CSUSA, the Artisan Lemon Oil Wax does penetrate and seal the wood surface......so, who knows what's exactly in the ingredients?.....but, it's stated to be "food-safe". The label says it's made for CSUSA, so I'd imagine it's some concoction that is specifically formulated for them, at their request.

MM, I tend to agree about no need for the sanding sealer......that is, if the Lemon Oil Wax does as it's advertised to do.....penetrate and seal. Is there anyone on this forum that can give "hand-on" input about this product?

I understand the Lemon Oil Wax is not a permanent finish for a salad bowl in regular use. There will have to be some sort of regular care after washings......mineral oil, and the like.

I don't know if what you see in the photo will make any difference at all, but check it out. This is a very large bowl, by my standards.

Thank you all for your input on this. It's making me think, and look into aspects that I hadn't considered.

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Betcha

Just adding this photo I took a few minutes ago. The bowl in question is the larger of the two here. It's Maple, 14" in diameter by 7 1/2" tall. The spalting is there, but so minimal that it's almost non-existent. There is also some very slight swirly areas that look like the beginnings of burl......but, very little of that.

When I turned this bowl, I was unable to detect any loss of good hard wood to the spalt. I have some of the Minwax wood hardener, but don't really see a need to use it on this piece. If I had, I wouldn't be contemplating using this for food anyway.......

According to CSUSA, the Artisan Lemon Oil Wax does penetrate and seal the wood surface......so, who knows what's exactly in the ingredients?.....but, it's stated to be "food-safe". The label says it's made for CSUSA, so I'd imagine it's some concoction that is specifically formulated for them, at their request.

MM, I tend to agree about no need for the sanding sealer......that is, if the Lemon Oil Wax does as it's advertised to do.....penetrate and seal. Is there anyone on this forum that can give "hand-on" input about this product?

I understand the Lemon Oil Wax is not a permanent finish for a salad bowl in regular use. There will have to be some sort of regular care after washings......mineral oil, and the like.

I don't know if what you see in the photo will make any difference at all, but check it out. This is a very large bowl, by my standards.

Thank you all for your input on this. It's making me think, and look into aspects that I hadn't considered.

ooc

That the miracle product you're looking at is a blend of 1. paraffin, 2. linseed or soya oil, and 3. Lemon oil. There's no MSDS or ingredients listed but they're playing the scary "food safe" card [every wood finish on the market is food safe when dry/cured] and working on one of the greatest ad lies ever foisted on the American consumer. Johnson Wax company's "Good for the wood 'cause it's wax." slogan had Mr. & Mrs America (mostly Mrs.) rubbing paraffin wax on their tables for many decades. Lemon Pledge was another. Smells nice, but doesn't do $&@#! a thing for the wood.

When I give treenware I've made, I also give a small cup of oil/wax blend that I cook up and pour into small Solo cups. My secret formula? 1 part paraffin +1 part bee's wax + 12 parts mineral oil + 1 teaspoon vanilla or almond extract (for scent). Rub it on the wood and the oil releases into the wood and the wax gives a nice (food safe) sheen on the surface with the excess taken up in the rag or paper towel. I probably should market the stuff as the recipients invariably call me for more, so I tell'em how to make it themselves. Maybe I should throw in some lemon zest, eh? 😀

 

[Odie]

That the miracle product you're looking at is a blend of 1. paraffin, 2. linseed or soya oil, and 3. Lemon oil. There's no MSDS or ingredients listed but they're playing the scary "food safe" card [every wood finish on the market is food safe when dry/cured] and working on one of the greatest ad lies ever foisted on the American consumer. Johnson Wax company's "Good for the wood 'cause it's wax." slogan had Mr. & Mrs America (mostly Mrs.) rubbing paraffin wax on their tables for many decades. Lemon Pledge was another. Smells nice, but doesn't do $&@#! a thing for the wood.

When I give treenware I've made, I also give a small cup of oil/wax blend that I cook up and pour into small Solo cups. My secret formula? 1 part paraffin +1 part bee's wax + 12 parts mineral oil + 1 teaspoon vanilla or almond extract (for scent). Rub it on the wood and the oil releases into the wood and the wax gives a nice (food safe) sheen on the surface with the excess taken up in the rag or paper towel. I probably should market the stuff as the recipients invariably call me for more, so I tell'em how to make it themselves. Maybe I should throw in some lemon zest, eh? 😀

Hello Mark......

Yes, I've heard most finishes are "food safe" after a cure period, before.....and my knowledge of such things is pretty dismal. I'm not so sure about shellac, or varnish........?......but maybe you can't eat enough dried shellac or varnish to be a threat. (!) Maybe the "food safe card" is intended to mean that it's non-toxic in all stages of use.......?+?=😕

It sounds like your "secret formula" will have much the same characteristics as the Lemon Oil Wax. Maybe you ought to market it.........Mahoney seems to be doing alright with his walnut oil, and I don't think there's any secret ingredients, or mysterious unprecedented results over other products on the market. As far as I can see, it's his name recognition that makes the product successful......so, why can't your product be successful? It all depends on how you market it, I suppose.......and dummies like me, who don't know the science behind it......would buy it! All I care about is satisfactory results, and leave the chemistry to those who care about these things! I don't do enough salad bowls to warrant much research.......just want to go on with what does interest me.......the lathe aspects of making the bowls!:cool2:

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Eating It

You would, I'm sure, be surprised at how much shellac and wax you eat, Odie.

Like nice shiny red apples? They don't grow that way, Dude, they're waxed.

Ever take timed release meds (Contac, etc)? You've been eating shellac.

🙂

 

[hockenbery]

Marc,
You left out jelly beans

Great seeing you in St Paul

Al

 

[Gretch Flo]

lemon oil wax

Odie-do you have any cut offs from the bowl blanks?? If so-or another small piece. sand it, apply your wax, and then wash it several times over a couple of weeks and see what you get.
Mark-I too make a home brew wax. 1/3 walnut oil (or mineral oi) and 2/3 beeswax. Melt in "double boiler"(old cookie tin inside a -pour in 1 1/2 oz food containers with lids-get at a party store for condiments, or Gordon food service). Give away to someone buying over $50 of bowls. I bought Mahoneys finishing oil wax and it is too soft. (mine isn't) Last summer it became real runny (like oatmeal with alot of milk!!) sitting on my finishing table. Called CSUUS (I think that's where I got it) and they replaced it-same thing-just less runny. I think they dilute it too much with less expensive stuff. Gretch

 

[Mark Mandell]

Nuts

Hello Mark......

Yes, I've heard most finishes are "food safe" after a cure period, before.....and my knowledge of such things is pretty dismal. I'm not so sure about shellac, or varnish........?......but maybe you can't eat enough dried shellac or varnish to be a threat. (!) Maybe the "food safe card" is intended to mean that it's non-toxic in all stages of use.......?+?=😕

It sounds like your "secret formula" will have much the same characteristics as the Lemon Oil Wax. Maybe you ought to market it.........Mahoney seems to be doing alright with his walnut oil, and I don't think there's any secret ingredients, or mysterious unprecedented results over other products on the market. As far as I can see, it's his name recognition that makes the product successful......so, why can't your product be successful? It all depends on how you market it, I suppose.......and dummies like me, who don't know the science behind it......would buy it! All I care about is satisfactory results, and leave the chemistry to those who care about these things! I don't do enough salad bowls to warrant much research.......just want to go on with what does interest me.......the lathe aspects of making the bowls!:cool2:

ooc

He He

There are something like 6 grades of walnut oil available, priced according to how far the refining process is taken. Stuff you buy in the grocery store still has some of the "stuff" that will go "bad" after exposure to air (and might kill you if you happen to be allergic to the juglone protean). The grade that Mahoney sells has been further refined to remove all that material. Not sure if he adds anything, but if not, he wouldn't be the first guy to buy something in 55 gal. drums and then put it into 4 oz bottles with a catchy label for sale at a tidy profit. Checked the price for 1/4 oz of "Super Glue" at the hardware store lately?

 

[Mark Mandell]

Great seeing you in St Paul

Nice to finally get to meet you as well, Al. That's about 1/3 of what these things are for anyway, I think.

m

 

[Dave Ogren]

Salad Bowl Finish

Here is another choice that I didn't see posted. On salad bowls I use a combo of Bee's Wax and Bertoli's Extra Virgin Olive Oil. You combine in a double boiler. The more wax the thicker it is. The good part is if you are not happy put back into a double boiler and more of one or the other weather you want it thinner or thicker. I tend to change it from winter to summer. Olive oil does not go rancid. This recipe has been around for more than 30 years that I know about.
Good Luck, and if you are not happy with it just pour it onto your salad.
Dave

 

[MichaelMouse]

He He

There are something like 6 grades of walnut oil available, priced according to how far the refining process is taken. Stuff you buy in the grocery store still has some of the "stuff" that will go "bad" after exposure to air (and might kill you if you happen to be allergic to the juglone protean).

The what? Juglone is definitely NOT a protein nor an amino acid, which is what proteins are made of. It's a quinone - notice the "one" - and will inhibit some plant growth. It's NOT in the nutmeats, because having it there would be a waste of effort, and nature abhors waste. Roots, bark, husks, you bet. They fall and help poison the earth under the tree to keep competition to a minimum.

There are two common varieties in the store - cold-pressed and unrefined, and cold-pressed, filtered and refined. Third variety- solvent-extracted - is used as a food additive or vehicle for paint. People with TREE nut allergies react to some of the proteins in the nuts. Not the oil. Depending on your allergist, you may use the oil without fear - or not. Seems they haven't any significant evidence of anaphylaxis in the sensitive attributed to the lipids. Filtered oil will have removed any significant nutmeat portions, extracted oil, all.

 

[Mark Mandell]

"Juglone" being the tree, Michael. The compound causing the allergic reaction usually being a protein, I simply put the two together. I wasn't making a definitive medical statement that needs you to get all up about correcting me.

I now know 2 woodworkers who must avoid walnut in any form due to potentially deadly (their term) consequences. That's walnut only, by the way; they're just fine with other nuts.

 

[robo hippy]

I ran into a woman at a show who is sensitive to petrolium distilates, or the solvents in most of the varnish type finishes. She informed me that it does not all go inert when dry. So, that is why I don't use any of that type of finish on any of my food bowls.

robo hippy

 

[MichaelMouse]

"Juglone" being the tree, Michael. The compound causing the allergic reaction usually being a protein, I simply put the two together. I wasn't making a definitive medical statement that needs you to get all up about correcting me.

Giving the wrong name for something and saying it could kill you sounds pretty medical to me.

Costs no more to get it right. Juglans is the genus, Juglandaceae the family, and would be a more correct way to express your thought if there were such things in common to the family or genus. Juglone is, as noted, a "natural" herbicide which is not found in the nuts. Tree nut proteins are pretty similar across the board, thus the generalized IgE response to them and, oddly, that legume, the peanut.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I ran into a woman at a show who is sensitive to petrolium distilates, or the solvents in most of the varnish type finishes. She informed me that it does not all go inert when dry. So, that is why I don't use any of that type of finish on any of my food bowls.

robo hippy

I believe I remarked on how difficult it must be for her to enter a garage where a vehicle was parked when last you mentioned it. The distillate solvents don't "go inert", they evaporate, dilute and disappear in the air, just like that other "universal solvent" - water.

SWMBO has a reaction to shellfish. Oddly enough, as I also have mentioned, this manifests itself on the chopped pollack mock crab as well. Not on pollack filets. Curious, isn't it?

 

[Mark Mandell]

Fair enough, Juglans, then.

But I didn't say it kills, only that it might. That word was used by both people I know who had been so sensitized to walnut from working the wood, that, according to them and their doctors, they must avoid any contact, including the nuts, shells, dust, leaves, etc., as their (alleged) reaction would be so severe that it was doubtful they could reach proper medical attention in time.

 

[Thomas Stegall]

Odie,

I can't speak from much experience with Lemon Oil, but I know that it is used on guitar fret boards, so musicians or instrument restorers might have more experience with that particular oil.

Since the common solutions that would preserve it the way you like have the unwanted quality of darkening wood, perhaps you should consider using a diluted wood bleach to lighten the wood. Then use an oil with the properities you want that will bring back the color to approximately what it is now? The wood bleach should also have the added benefit of neutralizing the spalting fungus if your blank was not kiln dried.

Maybe give it a try on scrap piece of maple?

MM you mentioned earlier "burning in WOP", I am not familiar with that process can you explain what you are refering to and how it's done?

 

[Odie]

Thanks Gretch and Thomas......good ideas!

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

MM you mentioned earlier "burning in WOP", I am not familiar with that process can you explain what you are refering to and how it's done?

Apply to refusal, then turn the lathe on - with protection for the shop - and press a rag dampened with oil onto the surface. Viscosity diminishes with the buildup of heat and it flows the finish in. Any oil-based can be done the same way. Additional benefit is the quicker evaporation of the solvent, and maybe a bit of a speedup in the cross-linking and cure of the oil.

 

[Thomas Stegall]

Interesting approach, I will have to give it a try. Is there any advantage to warming the WOP before applying to assist in changing the viscosity? Thanks for the information.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Odie,

Many, if not all, of the Lemon polishes, waxes, etc. that I have seen probably have never even had a close brush with a lemon. Since they are mainly used on furniture and floors or kitchen counters, they most likely just have an artificial lemon scent to create a pleasant smell. This not something that I would want on wooden treenware.

 

[Odie]

Odie,

Many, if not all, of the Lemon polishes, waxes, etc. that I have seen probably have never even had a close brush with a lemon. Since they are mainly used on furniture and floors or kitchen counters, they most likely just have an artificial lemon scent to create a pleasant smell. This not something that I would want on wooden treenware.

Hmmmmmm, very interesting, Bill! 😀

I'm thinking for myself, "function over form" is the most utilitarian and practical way to go. This Ash salad bowl was finished with Danish Oil natural, left to cure, and has the Lemon Oil Wax as a top coat. It's a pretty good way to go from my point of view, but the Danish Oil does have the drawback of slightly darkening and yellowing of light colored woods. Unless some other method catches my attention in the interim, this is probably what I'll be using with these two Maple salad bowls setting on top of the planer. Since I began this thread, I've gone on to other bowls and projects......haven't touched either of these two bowls yet.......😉

ooc

 

[Gretch Flo]

ash

Odie-I like your ash, bowl that is 😀
Speaking of ash.... I have been turning some really greatly figured ash from a huge tree. However after finishing a few in the last few months with danish oil, it is blah. Not much contrast- tan and tan. I have just turned 3 with lots of ripples. Have dyed some other ash-natural edged and they came out well, but had some degrade and whitish color in amongst the crotch figure. They dyed well. These current ones do not have degrade and may end up ho hum too.
Gretch

 

[Odie]

Odie-I like your ash, bowl that is 😀
Speaking of ash.... I have been turning some really greatly figured ash from a huge tree. However after finishing a few in the last few months with danish oil, it is blah. Not much contrast- tan and tan. I have just turned 3 with lots of ripples. Have dyed some other ash-natural edged and they came out well, but had some degrade and whitish color in amongst the crotch figure. They dyed well. These current ones do not have degrade and may end up ho hum too.
Gretch

Thanks Gretch......

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the ash bowls you mention here, if you have pics available. What sort of dye method are you using?

ooc

 

[Gretch Flo]

dye

Thanks Gretch......

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the ash bowls you mention here, if you have pics available. What sort of dye method are you using?

ooc

Odie-per the rec's by this forum-I start with alcohol aniline dyes after sanding to 400 and allowed to dry (I don't double turn much at all anymore) .(artisan dyes-CSUSA). Mix ea color in small jar 2/3rds filled with alcohol. Apply and after 30+ min resand, add another color, resand, add another or same color and resand. The color you end up with varies with the color of the wood. After satisfied with color, resand, (after adding color, grain is raised) . Now add sanding sealer, resand after drying 30 min, and then finish with 1-3 coats of Danish oil. I gave up on the lacquer. As you can see, it extends the WONDERFUL task of sanding and the chance of creating new scratches. Dyeing also brings out any flaws I have missed !!!!! I am mainly doing this on lighter wood, and bringing out chautency, and grain. It really looks nice on small ash that the lines are all parallel..
I have many pics of before and after. Just haven't taken the time to convert from raw (it is a PITA-and then photo shop_ Then figure out the downsize by trial and error and then figure out how to get into this forum. I just don't have the gumption to go thru this now. The gardens, weeds, turning and occasional work now and then (which pays the bills) are getting in the way.
I will say that the 3 craft sales I have had this spring/summer that the colored bowls are selling!!!!
The other thing I am playing with is liming wax on ash. That looks nice on dyed ask as well.(Mark Bakers article in May 2010, Woodturning mag#213)
Has extended my time from start to completions, but it
s nice to try something new. Think I spent almost $140 to get all the colors. I have gravitated to mostly black and blue and green.Gretch

 

[Odie]

Thanks Gretch......

I understand about the lack of motivation with the camera, and getting your images online. I suffer the same affliction! 😀) Electronics are also something that I just don't have much interest in......at least with any more interest than it takes to get beyond a very basic level of competence. Since these technologies were never a part of my existence until only recently, they are meaningless to me in my own personal foundation of important things in life.

It is a stark reality, however, that getting to the point of basic function in computers, cameras, online sourcing, etc., is something that may not be a corner stone in life's pleasure, but is necessary to enhance a total woodturning experience in today's world.

......but, I still don't have a cellphone!....Heh,heh,heh! 😀

Wow.......I hope that made the slightest bit of sense! 🙄

ooc

 

[Gretch Flo]

the new age

Odie- I have 2 cell phones, neither of which I know how to use,. The first was when I met my son-in-law and daughter at the wrong movie entrance and almost go stood up, (so I am on their family plan with a free phone that I couldn't figure out how to use.) My son ( same cell phone server) admitted that the phone was not user friendly. I hate the phone and rarely use it .
My new work phone replaced the analog pager which is going the way of the dinosaur. Took 4 people who use these things to figure out how to enter a phone number for address book. I hate phones. Why can't I figure out how to use the tv clicker to see the guide??? Use to be in the paper for the week and in an instant I could see anything of interest. Now I have to spend 5 minutes getting back and forth for what is coming up in the next hour. -drives me nuts.
Where did I put my slide rule????Gretch