1 x 10tpi chuck and faceplate (help?)

[erimille]

I'm in the finishing steps of restoring an old (50+ year) craftsman lathe. The design is very simple and similar to the circa 1975 Arundle type E5 [1], but much heavier, beefier cast iron. [2]

The headstock thread on this lathe (i think) are 1 x 10tpi. I'm looking for an old, nice chuck and faceplate that will take this thread. Anyone have spares?

I'm fairly new (ok really new) to turning but my limited research indicates that 1 x 10tpi seems like a relatively odd size. Any help on old or new products that might match this are very much appreciated.

thanks in advance,

--e

[1] http://www.lathes.co.uk/arundel/

[2] I have only limited knowledge of this lathe. What I do know is this lathe cast iron, 12x36 lathe sold by Craftsman I'm guessing around 50 years ago. The only model/part number I can find is stamped LC-XXXX (various 4 digit numbers) on each component (headstock, tailstock, rest, etc.). Pictures of this lathe are available at http://potlach.org/2004/12/lathe/

 

[Craneman54]

Check the spindle size again.If it is 1" then it is most likely 8tpi.

I could be wrong,but I have never seen a 1"X10tpi.

 

[erimille]

Check the spindle size again.If it is 1" then it is most likely 8tpi.

I could be wrong,but I have never seen a 1"X10tpi.

The spindle is indeed 1" in diameter. The thread (i think) is 10tpi based on visual inspection and counting threads per the 1/2" that is showing on either side of the head stock.

Your response however has me questioning this counting again (I originally thought this was 8tpi). Any idea how to confirm this? My hope was to to confirm this with the original specs of the lathe (help?) , but I haven't been able to find them. Unfortunately, I'm not in a situation where I can buy a chuck, try it out and take it back if I'm not satisfied.

--e

 

[arbud]

I" x 10tpi is OK

Both the Oneway and Nova chucks have 1' X 10 inserts. They may also have other accessories available as well.

 

[Nice Bill]

NUTS Are cheep

Hello, Very simple. Go to the hardware store -- Ace? and pick up two nuts, one of 8(tpi) and one of 10(tpi) the one that fits on your spindle is the size you have. Keep the nut, you may wish to use it in the future. Bring the other one back. Cheaper than a thread gauge.

I would think the thread is 8(tpi) as the 10 is fine and generally found on the out-board end of a spindle; if any.

Don't forget to ID the nuts at the store!!!!

FWIW?????

 

[theeviltwinn]

If the treads are indeed 1"X10 see if you can get an adapter made to a more common size. I think most machine shops should be able to do this. It will help in buying accessories.

Mike

 

[erimille]

Hello, Very simple. Go to the hardware store -- Ace? and pick up two nuts, one of 8(tpi) and one of 10(tpi) the one that fits on your spindle is the size you have. Keep the nut, you may wish to use it in the future. Bring the other one back. Cheaper than a thread gauge.

Thanks Nice Bill for the suggestion. I recall trying to do just this about 5 years ago when I found this lathe. Based on your and Craneman54's post, I went out and tried this again.

I only found a 1" 8tpi nut (no 10tpi to be found) at the local hardware store. It unfortunatly (as I recalled) didn't match. I'd still like to confirm with a 10tpi nut, but will have to try another source.

What I did manage to find out about this lathe was it was from the 30's rather than the 50's -

[[
The heaviest, and best, of the 'first-edition' Craftsman wood-turning lathes was the 12-inch model. With a shipping weight of 97 lbs and a 9/16" bore, No. 2 Morse taper headstock spindle (properly threaded at both ends) running in sealed-for-life ball bearings, this was a usefully strong and workman-like machine. The impression would have been reinforced by the proper barrel lock on the tailstock and the provision, as standard, of both 3 1/2" and 9" faceplates that were threaded to fit both the left and right-hand sides of the spindle.
]]
-- http://www.lathes.co.uk/craftsmanwood/page2.html

so it does indeed seems like a machine worth trying out if I can only find the right parts.... sigh.

--eric

 

[erimille]

Both the Oneway and Nova chucks have 1' X 10 inserts. They may also have other accessories available as well.

Bud,

Do you know if these chucks have interchangable inserts? These chucks seem much more expensive than I'm able to spend right now, but If I did go down this path, I'd like to be able to swap out threaded inserts for future lathe spindle / thread sizes.

Thanks in advance,

--eric

 

[Nice Bill]

Hello again Erimille,

As you may well know, standard thread size is 3/4"= 10 & 16 (tpi), 7/8"= 9 & 14 (tpi) and 1"= 8 & 12 ( tpi). If you can check the angle of the threads, UNC, UNF, and Metric threads are at a 60* angle and Whitworth, and BSF are at a 55* angle. If the threads are Whitworth, UNC threads will fit on the spindle, however Whitworth threads will not fit on UNC. BSF threads are 1"= 10 (tpi)

You may wish to take a paper imprint of the threads, or better yet a clay mold, and bring it to a machine shop. They will tell you what you have.

If you have an odd-ball thread, it may be easer to get a standard size spindle, they can be had for as low as $30.00. , or pull the spindle and have a machine shop turn standard threads on it. If it is an odd-ball, it will cost you more in the long run for parts that fit. FWIW, I would opt for one of the above, and then you can buy what you like.

Thats all I have, let us know how you make out, this is getting interesting.

 

[Steve Worcester]

Do you know if these chucks have interchangable inserts?
--eric

There are several types of chucks with interchangeable inserts out there. I believe all of the Oneways and most of the Novas are changeable inserts.

 

[dkulze]

Just got a supernova II and you have to purchase the insert that fits your spindle seperate. I also know that the Oneway's are ordered with the spindle insert of your choice.

Yes, it's an investment but what you're getting is a scroll chuck rather than the older type with independently threaded jaws. It's an awsome piece of machinery and makes turning a whole new experience, especially bowls and hollow forms.

Dietrich.

 

[erimille]

There are several types of chucks with interchangeable inserts out there. I believe all of the Oneways and most of the Novas are changeable inserts.

Thats Steve, much appreciated. Can you tell I'm new at this

Basically, It looks like I'm now looking at the following options -

1) Replace / modify the spindle to a more common thread (thanks Nice Bill for the suggestion)

2) Buy a more expensive chuck with interchangeable threads (I like this idea, but the cost, ouch)

3) Keep mercilessly bugging folks, until someone finds some old matching gear tucked away in the back of their shop

Part of the issue I'm grappling with is how much effort I want to put in to this machine. I had hoped getting a matching chuck / faceplate for this would be easy and then assessing if this is something I wanted to more significantly invest in. I'm not even know how such a re-built machine for example might compare to something new. Color me naive.

Case in point... I can't get this lathe to pass the 'nickel test' in terms of vibration under no load. Is this a problem? Something one should suspect to be able to do with new lathes? I'm close, but if I can't do this under no load, I can't imagine what this might be like under significant load.

Also, I don't have a balanced, matching machined 4 step pulley on the motor to easily adjust speeds. To change speeds I swap out variable sized single balanced pulleys and align this accordingly to the stepped pulley on the spindle. Take me about 3 min each time. Do people find the need to chance speeds frequently?

Are these capabilities essential for bowl turning (which is mostly what I want to do).

Sorry to take this thread in so many directions. I really appreciate the help / feedback of this group.

--eric

 

[erimille]

Bookmarking ... looks like the Atlas model 7122 seems to be similar enough to the old craftsman that the parts might be interchangable.

[[
... By 1941 wood lathes had even been displaced entirely from the Atlas company's main catalog, and did not reappear again until 1948 (in a dedicated Wood Lathe Sales Brochure) when the new 12" x 36" Model 7122 was introduced. This was a heavily built (115 lb.) machine which used iron castings for all the main components to gain the mass which is so helpful for successful wood turning. The ground-finish, No. 2 Morse taper, 9/16"-bore headstock spindle ran on sealed, factory-preloaded and shimmed SKF ball bearings with a 1" x 10 tpi thread at both its ends, left-handed of course on the outboard, "bowl-turning" side. The spindle carried a 4-step V pulley (guarded by a neat, swing-open cast-iron cover) which, like the 10" Atlas metal lathe, had a ring of 60 indexing holes on the larger of its two end flanges ...
]]
-- http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlaswood/

--eric

 

[dkulze]

Erimille,

I gotta say, it sounds like you have a truly classic machine, kinda like a truly classic car. Nice to drive around for parades but not always the first pick for road trips.

Changing speeds and no vibration aren't required for turning, just like multiple gears and shock absorbers aren't required for driving. I'd tend to say fix the machine up for bragging rights and pick up a second machine for most of your turning. Unless, of course, you're into the whole retro style, in which case, enjoy every quirk and limitation!

Just a humble opinion,
Dietrich

 

[Nice Bill]

Are these capabilities essential for bowl turning (which is mostly what I want to do).

Sorry to take this thread in so many directions. I really appreciate the help / feedback of this group.

Eric,

(a) Variable speed is not essential for turning, however, most would agree it is a desirable asset. Even a treadle lathe has variable speed.

(b) Why be "Sorry? What else is this page for.


Now for the turm, "Nickel Test". Anyone that knows about the nickel test is OK in my book, as I am a retired master millwright; (40) years. The nickle test can tell you a great deal about the vibration in rotating equipment, the only thing it can't do, is give you a printed read-out, like the new vibration analysis computers can.
A nickel on edge, will stand tall and proud with no signs of movement, with no vibration. A fine running component may have 0.5 db vibration, you realy have to look at the nickel. If the nickel is wavering, it is showing signs of 1.5 to 2 db, and the equipment requires some adjustment. If the nickel falls over, the vibration has exced 3 db, and the component requires your immediate attention. Generally?, major repair!! REMEMBER -- SAFETY, at high lathe speeds and a vibration grater than 3 db something will let go. With the nickel falling over, and with no load on your lathe, I would agree that you do have a major problem. Check the bearings!! Not to put it all down, but this could cost you more than your initial interest in the thread size.

Good Luck, restoration opens up many challenges.

 

[erimille]

...
Now for the turm, "Nickel Test". Anyone that knows about the nickel test is OK in my book, as I am a retired master millwright; (40) years. The nickle test can tell you a great deal about the vibration in rotating equipment, the only thing it can't do, is give you a printed read-out, like the new vibration analysis computers can.
A nickel on edge, will stand tall and proud with no signs of movement, with no vibration. A fine running component may have 0.5 db vibration, you realy have to look at the nickel. If the nickel is wavering, it is showing signs of 1.5 to 2 db, and the equipment requires some adjustment. If the nickel falls over, the vibration has exced 3 db, and the component requires your immediate attention. Generally?, major repair!! REMEMBER -- SAFETY, at high lathe speeds and a vibration grater than 3 db something will let go. With the nickel falling over, and with no load on your lathe, I would agree that you do have a major problem. Check the bearings!! Not to put it all down, but this could cost you more than your initial interest in the thread size.

Good Luck, restoration opens up many challenges.

Arrggg... it wasn't the bearings (err.. well it might be as well) but rather the motor out of alignment with the spindle. A quick fix on the alignment and I'm better (but not perfect). Nickel test passes (barely) at the highest speed (1750 rpm) by the headstock but I do get a bit of a wobble testing by the tailstock. Less of a problem at lower speeds. Still not perfect however... I'm thinking if I do get this working, I'd be concerned about turning any big pieces.

And thanks btw for helping me equate the various nickel stages to actual dbs! I didn't know the specifics of this before

--eric

 

[erimille]

Erimille,

I gotta say, it sounds like you have a truly classic machine, kinda like a truly classic car. Nice to drive around for parades but not always the first pick for road trips.

Changing speeds and no vibration aren't required for turning, just like multiple gears and shock absorbers aren't required for driving. I'd tend to say fix the machine up for bragging rights and pick up a second machine for most of your turning. Unless, of course, you're into the whole retro style, in which case, enjoy every quirk and limitation!

Just a humble opinion,
Dietrich

Thanks Dietrich... I think you may be right; I may be asking too much from this. I was hoping this might be a dead-simple, dead-accurate lathe I could use to do small to medium sized bowl turning. I keep hoping.

I never thought of this in terms of 'bragging rights' however. I guess I'm looking for that '73 BMW 2002 equivalent of a lathe - an old, simple, extremely well built car thats still a heck of a lot of fun to drive :cool2:

--eric

 

[dkulze]

We're all looking for that, Eric. Unfortunately, there's not that many of them out there. My own nod to it are all my grandfather-in-law's chisels. He was a finish detailer for pianos. Unfortunately, his tools were left in a flooded basement for 12 years so most have rusted or rotted out. My particular favorite that survived is a little 1/4 round palm chisel with a maple handle that has the deepest tiger figure I've ever seen.

Complete nonsequiter: For anyone out there who is a Dunkin Donuts fan, don't try the new steak breakfast sandwich. It's like a 1970's dairy queen hamburger pattie. Kinda gross.

Dietrich

 

[Nice Bill]

And thanks btw for helping me equate the various nickel stages to actual dbs! I didn't know the specifics of this before

--eric

As I have often observed noted in a number of posts, "That's my 5 cents worth.

On the other end - I have had several email sessions with Tony in the UK, (the world bank on lathe info.) about your lathe ie. threads. Tony said Craftsman changed thread size often on the early wood lathes, and he did not have any notes on the threads for that specific model. However, did say they may, more likely than not, be Whit. rather than BSF. I personally don't know of any chuck manufacture that makes an addaptor with Whit. threads, someone else may be able to help, if this is the case.

Well, now I am in it for a dime. Back out to the shop, I have a large project in the works. Best of luck with your adventure, keep us posted on this thread.

 

[dkulze]

It occurs to me, if you really want to be able to use the lathe, to have a metal shop either make you custom threaded faceplates, have them mill down and rethread the spindle, or have them make you a new spindle. Not sure what the cost would be though.

The other, slightly more chancy route to go would be to purchase a Oneway chuck and insert, file the threads until you have a tight jam fit, lock the insert on with the locking screws, and leave it on. The Oneway has optional spur drives and, with the cole jaws, could be used as a faceplate. The only problem with this method is it's semiperminance and the need to get your fit exactly right the first time.

On second thought, I'm not so crazy about that option.

Dietrich

 

[Fred in NC]

Threads

The only LOW COST adapter in 1-10 I know of:

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2005/main/096.cfm?

The chucks on that page that take the adapter are not very good for woodwork. Only the face plate is really usable.

Any chuch with 3/4" thread can probably be re-threaded to 1-10, but the cost is probably high. Mostly because taps are not easy to get, and any threading will be machined in the lathe.

Replacing the spindle sounds to me like the best way. That way you will have access to a lot of 1-8 stuff.

 

[erimille]

The only LOW COST adapter in 1-10 I know of:

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2005/main/096.cfm?

The chucks on that page that take the adapter are not very good for woodwork. Only the face plate is really usable.

Any chuch with 3/4" thread can probably be re-threaded to 1-10, but the cost is probably high. Mostly because taps are not easy to get, and any threading will be machined in the lathe.

Replacing the spindle sounds to me like the best way. That way you will have access to a lot of 1-8 stuff.

Thanks Fred for the info. I just exchanged email with someone who had/has? a similar Atlas model 7122 who pointed me at the same threaded inserts from Grizzly. I also found 1 x 10tpi inserts for the Nova chuck but these are a bit more expensive.

I still don't know however if these are Whit. rather than BSF (as Nice Bill pointed out), but I was thinking trying one of these inserts might help me determine this.

Replacing the spindle sounds to me more like something to seriously consider. Are replacement spindles something one can buy? or is this something that would have to be custom made. I'd like ideally to have something that has the same functionality (e.g. inboard and outboard turning, MT #2 on inboard), but I don't know how realistic it is to simply buy something like this from a catalog.

--eric

 

[erimille]

Well, now I am in it for a dime. Back out to the shop, I have a large project in the works. Best of luck with your adventure, keep us posted on this thread.

Nice Bill, If you're now asking asking various people about the threads on this lathe, you're in it now for certainly more than a dime!

Thanks for your help, much appreciated!

--eric

 

[erimille]

The only LOW COST adapter in 1-10 I know of:

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2005/main/096.cfm?

The chucks on that page that take the adapter are not very good for woodwork. Only the face plate is really usable.

In a bit of frustration today I ordered the left and right threaded 1" x 10TPI inserts along with the faceplate in part simply to find out if it might work.

I called 3 machine shops today about the possibility of rethreading this spindle. Perhaps I'm using the wrong words to describe this, or perhaps this job is simply too small but all 3 informed me they wouldn't be able to help

I'll let you know of the insert and faceplates actually work. Thanks again for the tip.

--eric

 

[erimille]

In a bit of frustration today I ordered the left and right threaded 1" x 10TPI inserts along with the faceplate in part simply to find out if it might work.

Nope... sigh. The saga continues!

FWIW - the Grizzly faceplate looks quite impressive for the cost.

--eric

 

[erimille]

If the 1 x 10" TPI nuts didn't match my next option was to take this spindle out and replace the unit with a new or re-milled spindle. If I do, I'll have the opportunity to replace the bearings.

Are there particular bearings that anyone can recommend? The current ones in there are Poland HDD (model 6205Z), single row, encased. The (approx.) bearing dimensions are 1" diameter, 2 1/16" wide and about 5/8" thick.

I don't think these are bearings intended for a lathe. As such suggestions welcomed!

--eric

 

[erimille]

If the 1 x 10" TPI nuts didn't match my next option was to take this spindle out and replace the unit with a new or re-milled spindle. If I do, I'll have the opportunity to replace the bearings.

Ok, looks like a (finally) found a machine shop willing to help. I've removed the spindle from the headstock, its at the shop and within the next day or so it should be re-threaded to 8TPI.

I'm hoping to be back online by this weekend (just in time for the anual woodworking show!)

Now... to figure out if its worth it to upgrade the bearings... hmmm

--eric

 

[erimille]

Ok, looks like a (finally) found a machine shop willing to help. I've removed the spindle from the headstock, its at the shop and within the next day or so it should be re-threaded to 8TPI.

Wow, that was fast! I just picked this up and the spindle looks great.

For those interested, the machinist indicated the thread looked originally like a 1 x 8TPI" thread cut at a 60deg angle. He said basically it looks like it was just used enough, and for so long, that that it simply wouldn't take a match. In addition to cleaning up the threads, he also trued up the MT#2 as well. The insert apparently was slightly dinged which made the spindle not completely balanced. The whole lathe when fired up just a whole lot more silent.

I went out and bought a 3" faceplate ... in part, simply I think because I could now do something with it

I've decided to keep the 6205Z bearings for a while. I can't (yet) find any tapered bearings that will fit and I've recently learned that the 6205Z are used in the older delta/rockwell lathes so perhaps they're were intended for a lathe after all. I suspect the tapered bearings would be able to handle higher loads, but this if for another time

p.s.: thanks (again) to all for your help!

--eric

 

[TEK]

bearings

Eric;
I looked at the pictures of your lathe on the web. Did you ever put a 4-step pulley on your motor? You would still only have 4 speeds but the difference between each step would be greater. That would give you more versatility and copy the original setup. You wold ahave more r.pms than your motor speed on the top end. It's nice to have more than 1725 r.p.m. on small work.That looks like a lot sturdier lathe than my old Craftsman that had twin tubes for ways and a ¾ “ spindle. Your bearings are spaced a lot farther apart than on that model also. That and the larger diameter spindle should give you a more solid lathe than my old one. I wouldn’t worry that much about the size of your bearings, but they may be worn of have some pitting or rust inside. If they are making noise replace them. You can also try to see if they have any side play by trying to wiggle your spindle 90 degrees to the lathe axis. I did a google search on my bearing numbers and found several suppliers on the web. I ended up buying them locally. I looked up bearings in the Cleveland Yellow pages and there were several bearing distributors in Cleveland. One had the bearings I needed and at about the same price as online. They also were helpful in explaining the difference in the several types of bearings that would fit my lathe.
Happy Turning

 

[erimille]

Eric;
I looked at the pictures of your lathe on the web. Did you ever put a 4-step pulley on your motor? You would still only have 4 speeds but the difference between each step would be greater. That would give you more versatility and copy the original setup.

Tek, I like the way you think!

I mounted the moter in such a way that when I find a matching 4 step pulley it should fit up quite nicely. The biggest problem I'm having is finding such a pulley. The cheap die-cast are easy enough to come by however they're poorly made and the extra vibration is not something I'm interested in.

Anyone know where one can find a good-high quality balanced 4 step pulley with a 5/8" opening (standard motor spindle?).

That looks like a lot sturdier lathe than my old Craftsman that had twin tubes for ways and a ? ñ spindle. Your bearings are spaced a lot farther apart than on that model also. That and the larger diameter spindle should give you a more solid lathe than my old one. I wouldnÃÂt worry that much about the size of your bearings, but they may be worn of have some pitting or rust inside.

These bearing are about 5 years old. This was one of the first things I did when I originally found this lathe (the old ones were indeed rusted, pitted and generally pretty useless). The restoration project then went on hold has life intervened only to be picked up a couple weeks ago

I too took the old ones into a local bearing distributor and had them help me get replacements. I think these 6205Z's were as close to the originals as are possible. What I was curious about, however, was if there were *better* ones that might be worthwhile considering once i again took apart the headstock.

I think I'm coming to the conclusion this is a rock-solid, simple, fairly accurate, but not fantastic, antique lathe. More to the point, I think I'm starting to accept this.

With the addition of a matching pulley, I believe I'm ready to make some dust. If anyone might have a quality pulley, I may be willing to trade an unused 8" Grizzly faceplate with LH/RH 1 x 10TPI threaded inserts

Thanks for the feedback,

--eric

ps: this forum is great!

 

[erimille]

spindle length?

A recent purchace of a chuck has indicated another limitation of this spindle. arrgg..... In particular the length of the spindle (approx 1") that is exposed on either side of the headstock is shorter than the various modern chucks / faceplates that are availiable.

In particular, screwing the chuck onto the spindle it threads right up to the headstock which hinders rotation.

Anyone know what the more common exposed length (both the unthreaded and threaded parts) of a spindle 'modern' lathes might be?

--eric

 

[TEK]

A recent purchace of a chuck has indicated another limitation of this spindle. arrgg..... In particular the length of the spindle (approx 1") that is exposed on either side of the headstock is shorter than the various modern chucks / faceplates that are availiable.

In particular, screwing the chuck onto the spindle it threads right up to the headstock which hinders rotation.

Anyone know what the more common exposed length (both the unthreaded and threaded parts) of a spindle 'modern' lathes might be?

--eric

There should be some sort of shoulder on the spindle or bearing that a washer could bear against. The washer would of course be small enough in the outside diameter so it does not ride on the headstock. You could place as many as needed on the spindle to move the chuck away from the headstock. Packard Woodworks sells plastic washers. http://www.packardwoodworks.com/index.html They are inexpensive and would be easy to modify, or you could get a nut to fit your spindle and tighten it against the chuck. Good luck!