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what's the deal with box elder?

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I just picked up some flame box elder and it's very pretty and unusual with the deep red streaks running through it. But as we all know, the red will fade, fast or slowly, it will fade to a brown. I have yet to turn any but I'm left wondering what the deal is with it. From a quick search there seems to be nothing that can be done to arrest the color fade. It's super fun to cut with a chainsaw and see the blood red ripped shavings but past that I'm not sure. What am I missing?

I assume I should turn it wet and probably have my photography setup ready as soon as it comes off the lathe for posterity sake.
 

john lucas

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If you keep it out of direct sunlight it will hold its color for quite a.while. the only way to keep.its color is to airbrush over the color with the same color using metallic dyes.
 
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20210228_221112(1).jpg Deep red at or close to pith....red can be punky......the real prize with boxelder is burl.....it can be wide enough for small hollow form in the heart wood instead of growth on side of tree....its not always present but is nice surprize
 
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i did find small pockets of burl around the sapwood. was strange, it wasn't "burly" like you'd expect. the burl was flat and spread out across the face just under the bark, maybe 1/2" thick. not enough to do anything with except cringe because there wasn't more.
 
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how long after turning was the pic of the hollowforms taken? honestly I'm enjoying that creamy nice white color every bit as much as the red. no reason to think bleach wouldn't attack the red as much as the rest ehh?
 
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Fixing the red in boxelder is the holy grail - if you figure it out, don't tell anybody but me.
There was a student at U of Washington or Oregon that was doing her doctorate on spalting and how to control. We had a dialogue going and I encouraged her include boxelder.
I'm going to search some old emails.

I think that's a boxelder I'm holding in my avatar - attached is an earlier boxelder:
 

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john lucas

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Wood.bleach doesnt affect the brown or the red. It only bleaches the white wood. Binh Pho showed us how to bleach the wood and then air brush the red. Not as hard as it seems. The Golden magenta air brush color is very close to the Box Elder red.
 
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I use TransTint red dye mixed with Acetone and I paint it on with a fine paint brush. It is a metal acid dye and is very light fast. With enough practice no one will ever know that it was dyed and will last indefinitely.
 

Bill Boehme

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I remember a forum discussion many years ago between Bill Grumbine and Mark Mandell about the chemical composition of the red color streaks in box elder and whether it could be stabilized. Mark gave a sample of the red stained wood to a friend who works in the pharmaceutical industry. His analysis revealed that the red stain is an organic phenol-dirivative and is inherently unstable and takes very little UV energy to break down provided the right reaction can be energized. He indicated that analysis of the stain after it turned brown might give a clue as to whether the red could be stabilized. My recollection is that the prospects for a color fixative weren't promising so the matter wasn't pursued any further.
 

hockenbery

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how long after turning was the pic of the hollowforms taken? honestly I'm enjoying that creamy nice white color every bit as much as the red. no reason to think bleach wouldn't attack the red as much as the rest ehh?
Photo taken less than a month after they were finished.
I use 2 part wood bleach. It seems to bring out the red and maybe make it las longer.

Bleach well on to show the red in box elder and the dark lines in spalted wood.
Bleach used on ambrosia maple turns the brown streaks green - I don’t care for the green.
 
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Roger Wiegand

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If you finish with a spar varnish (ie a clear finish with UV inhibitors added) the color will last for years, at least, assuming the turning is not directly exposed to bright light. Unfortunately the ones I've tried also turn the nice white wood a fairly unpleasant, overwhelming yellow.

Red TransTint is the only long-term solution I have ever heard of. Sure, you could do it on other wood as well.
 
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If you finish with a spar varnish (ie a clear finish with UV inhibitors added) the color will last for years, at least, assuming the turning is not directly exposed to bright light. Unfortunately the ones I've tried also turn the nice white wood a fairly unpleasant, overwhelming yellow.

Anyone have experience with the newer waterbased exterior clear finishes? They have uv inhibitors, but I’m wondering if they are water white clear or yellowish?

Target EM 9300 is an exterior wb poly, water clear, says for uv exposure but not sure it has uv inhibitors. Roger I think you have used some Target products.
 

john lucas

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I did a test a bunch of years ago on woods that change. I used cherry, box elder, osage orange and Padauk. I tried all.sorts of UV finishes. Even tried things like armourall that arent finishes. None of the worked when the work was subjected to direct sunlight. I also did a test where I put 2 scraps.of box elder that were resawed so the red was identical. I left them both near my tool.box. a lot of light through the windows but never got direct sunlight. One had the good side down and never got light. The other was left good side up. After 1 year there was a difference but not a huge difference. I also ha e.box elder pieces that are 10 years old or more that sit in a glass.cabinet that never gets direct light. They still have decent color ut I'm pretty sure its not as bright as it was when new.
 

hockenbery

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Were those nice looking hollow forms turned and finished or twice turned?
Once turned
The same process for all my HFS and NE bowls
Turn, dry, sand off the lathe, apply finish. ...
The curved mouth of the one was cut on the bandsaw - I stand bebind the saw pull the pice through curving the cut

Most Bowls with turned rims I turn twice,
 
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It's kind of ironic that as a woodturner I really like box elder, but as a home owner, I really don't like the trees. We have a bunch of them scattered around, and they're more like giant weeds. They grow quickly, but aren't very strong and are prone to limbs breaking off. They'll grow at any angle to get to more light, but can't support themselves after a while and break off or fall over. But then I go out with my chainsaw and end up with some really nice (though smelly) wood. Once it's dry it doesn't smell too bad though.
Here's one of my first hollow forms from some that I "harvested" after it came down and took out about 15' of fence. It has some nice spalting, but was a little blah looking, so I did some light blotches with brown and amber alcohol dyes, then blended them with DNA.

BoxElder form.jpg
 
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