Time-delayed CA

[Jamie Straw]

Well, I ran this flag up the pole at SMC and got no replies, so will try here: Was watching one of Carl Jacobson's videos today, he was making a game call, and he finished it with "EZ-CA" which has a 30-second delay in bonding and is odorless. The delay in bonding is supposed to help in sealing and waterproofing the wood. Seems like a great idea. Has anyone out there used it? Impressions?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Starbond has an odorless thin CA adhesive. A cure time of 30 seconds seems typical for thin CA. I buy it by the pint. That saves a lot of money. I keep it in the garage refrigerator and it lasts for years.

 

[Mike Johnson]

If I could only get the CA to set up on my wood pieces as fast as my fingers stick together I would be happy.

 

[Bill Boehme]

If I could only get the CA to set up on my wood pieces as fast as my fingers stick together I would be happy.

It sure is hard to drag my Robust American Beauty over to where I hope that I have my debonder stored. I suppose that the moral of that story is to never bond yourself to anything heavier that you are able to carry to where you have the debonder or heavier than you are willing to carry with you to Woodcraft or Rocklers to buy some debonder to replace the empty container that you have. BTW, be careful about applying debonder to your skin. Some debonders contain nitro-methane and others contain methylene chloride. Neither is particularly good for skin contact.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Geez, you guys, you don't have gloves in your shop?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Geez, you guys, you don't have gloves in your shop?

Yeah, but we don't want to mess them up with glue and other stuff that might damage them.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Gloves are for girls............
I usually wear latex gloves while using my metal lathe.
When doing wood work I like to be able to feel the wood surface with my bare hands.
Wearing latex gloves doing woodworking is like taking a shower with a rain coat on.
If I am doing a glue up project with CA glue I will usually wear gloves, but for small repairs on the lathe not too often.
I like to keep my hands conditioned for doing various types of work.
Harvesting trees, cutting them, loading them, processing them into billets, it helps to have tough hands and skin.

 

[Bill Boehme]

If I don't draw blood at least once a day then something is wrong.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have used the EZ CA that is intended for use as a finish. I couldn't tell any difference in curing time between it and the Starbond that I normally use. Others have said the same thing. I think that it is just a marketing gimmick. I actually prefer the super thin Starbond for CA finishing along with their accelerator in the pump sprayer ... not the aerosol accelerator. The one in the pump sprayer doesn't cause fuming the way that the aerosol accelerator does. I use Alan Trout's method for Applying CA and get excellent results.

 

[hockenbery]

If I don't draw blood at least once a day then something is wrong.

- phlebotomist and I thought you were an engineer....
Oh well!
Or as those across the pond say, a bloody engineer.

 

[Jamie Straw]

but for small repairs on the lathe not too often.
I like to keep my hands conditioned for doing various types of work.

Not sure how getting your fingers glued together conditions your hands. I don't use gloves when I turn either, but prefer to avoid the possibility of being glues to myself or my lathe, so gloves it is!

 

[Jamie Straw]

Starbond has an odorless thin CA adhesive. A cure time of 30 seconds seems typical for thin CA. I buy it by the pint. That saves a lot of money. I keep it in the garage refrigerator and it lasts for years.

How do they get "odorless" CA? Sounds like magic. Have to get me a shop that's big enough for a refrigerator.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Another CA question: On Wednesday, I was dripping CA onto the bark seam of a natural edge maple bowl I'd turned. Every once in awhile, there'd be a vapor release -- looked like a miniature smoke signal. Weird!! Had not seen that happen before. One turner-friend thought it might be moisture, but this bowl was right around 12-14%, pretty dry for our neck of the woods, and I've CA'd green maple bowls that didn't start communicating with me that way. Stock has been inside my shop for months, and was pretty dry when I original obtained it.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Jamie,

The CA glue is an acid, when it comes in contact with certain materials it will heat the material quickly
and create a vapor/smoke from the reaction. If you use a small piece of tissue paper to apply a CA finish
to a small wood project it will give off a vapor/smoke ring when you first drip the CA glue on the tissue paper.

The main issue I have with wearing gloves when using CA glue is the time it takes to put them on and take them off.
My time on the lathe is usually trying to get some "tools" made for some customers in a timely manner. When I take the
time to put them on I usually just keep working and before you know it an hour or so has gone by and my hands are all
wet when I take the gloves off. The other issue I have is when the latex glove sticks to the glue and you end up shredding
the glove for a simple quick glue job on a crack or check in the wood grain. If I am going to spend some time gluing pieces
together I will wear latex gloves, but it still gets frustrating when you grab a spot of CA glue and the glove sticks to it like
right now! After a while you just get used to getting the glue on your fingers knowing within a day or two it will be gone.
They use medical grade CA glue for doing medical procedures including brain surgery, so it does not concern me with
the possible effects of the chemical on my hands.

 

[Jamie Straw]

The CA glue is an acid, when it comes in contact with certain materials it will heat the material quickly
and create a vapor/smoke from the reaction. If you use a small piece of tissue paper to apply a CA finish
to a small wood project it will give off a vapor/smoke ring when you first drip the CA glue on the tissue paper.

Thanks, Mike, that's interesting. There must have been something in the seam between the bark and tree body, in several places, that reacted to the CA.

 

[Dave Bunge]

Jamie, I use the "odorless" Starbond CA mentioned in posts above. Not because of how it cures, but because it is much less irritating to my eyes.

It's a little thicker than the super-thin varieties, but not much (odorless = 5 cP viscosity vs 2 for the super thin and about 1 for water).

You asked, "how do they get odorless?" I believe it uses a different cyanoacrylate molecule that has a higher molecular weight and thus is less likely to evaporate. Probably an octyl group hanging on the side instead of a methyl group. There is a pretty good Wikipedia article on cyanoacrylate adhesives if you want more of the technical details.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Probably an octyl group hanging on the side instead of a methyl group.

Oh, dear, you're taking me back to organic chem. And the dreams I had the night before a midterm, seeing myself as a molecule with all these "things" hanging off my arms and legs.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Jamie,

The CA glue is an acid, when it comes in contact with certain materials it will heat the material quickly
and create a vapor/smoke from the reaction. If you use a small piece of tissue paper to apply a CA finish
to a small wood project it will give off a vapor/smoke ring when you first drip the CA glue on the tissue paper.....

... They use medical grade CA glue for doing medical procedures including brain surgery, so it does not concern me with
the possible effects of the chemical on my hands.

CA glue (methyl cyanoacrylate and ethyl cyanoacrylate) are not acids, they are esters. When CA adhesive polymerizes it's an exothermic reaction so a lot of thermal energy is released and that is the reason for the fuming if the process goes high order. Two things that can lead to high order polymerization are water and certain animal and plant proteins. That could explain why you see instant curing when dripped onto a tissue ... the moisture content and the cotton fiber proteins in the tissue. I thought that I had a brilliant idea once when I drizzled some CA onto a cotton pad ... turned out to be not-so-brilliant. Another smooth move on my part was when I was soaking thin CA into the cracks of a piece of wood. I didn't notice that the crack went all the way through the wood and ran onto my right hand that was holding the wood from beneath. Well, since the wood was heavy, I had the heel of my hand resting on my right knee. About then I realized that my knee felt like it was on fire. So, there I was ... wood blank glued to my hand ... my hand glued to my jeans ... my jeans glued to my knee. I almost forgot to mention that a sizeable amount of glue had dripped onto the floor as well as onto the toe of my nice new Brooks running shoes. So, shoe stuck to sock ... sock stuck to toes, tread of shoes stuck to floor. I would like to say that I am a lot smarter now when it comes to using super glue ... that's what I would like to say. But sometimes the consequences of getting CA on your hands are more obvious.

I would recommend using either nitrile or vinyl gloves. I suspect that the latex is serving to accelerate polymerization of the CA. I have found that Bounty paper towels and Starbond super-thin CA work well together. Some other brands of paper towels seem to behave like the tissue paper that you described.

The medical types of superglue are different (2-octyl cyanoacrylate and n-butyl cyanoacrylate) in that there isn't nearly as much heat released during polymerization and it remains flexible after curing.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

Great story. OK, I'll ask. How did you extricate yourself?

 

[John Torchick]

Debonder = acetone. The old formula of nail polish remover was used by many. Now the acetone is absent. CA glue was used to substitute for stitches.

 

[Rob Price]

Parfix makes a CA glue that gives you about a minute to work and doesn’t smell at all. Look for Mark Sillay videos on YouTube. Makes a great finish in one coat. Doesn’t like water though- it’s best sitting on a shelf.

 

[Tim Tucker]

The Parfix is a medical grade product IIRC.....I bought some from Mark @ Raleigh AAW and really like it. Expensive as compared to Starbond et al...but I think worth it.

 

[Mike Adams]

It sure is hard to drag my Robust American Beauty over to where I hope that I have my debonder stored. I suppose that the moral of that story is to never bond yourself to anything heavier that you are able to carry to where you have the debonder or heavier than you are willing to carry with you to Woodcraft or Rocklers to buy some debonder to replace the empty container that you have. BTW, be careful about applying debonder to your skin. Some debonders contain nitro-methane and others contain methylene chloride. Neither is particularly good for skin contact.

A moral to live by.

I use nail polish remover (100% acetone) from the health and beauty aisle in my local supermarket. I get it in pint bottles and I keep several smaller bottles strewn about in the shop at the places where I use CA. I won't relate my glued to something story. Suffice to say I spent a long, quiet Sunday morning in the shop until my wife came home and she reminds me of it all to frequently.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

Amusing and educational anecdotes. I always use nitrile gloves with CA, but it's good to remember that there are other surfaces available that will make excellent glue joints.

I'll have to look at putting the CA supplies together with the acetone in one tote.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Debonder = acetone. The old formula of nail polish remover was used by many. Now the acetone is absent. CA glue was used to substitute for stitches.

Several years ago I went into a small town ER to get stitches on a cut on my hand, well the doctor decided to use CA to hold it shut, however I don't think it was something he had practiced successfully because every time he put the CA on the blood washed it away.
As for gloves, CA and woodturning about a year ago I was trying to put CA on as a finish with a nitrile glove on my right hand, a folded paper towel and really really fast setting CA. I was only about half way through the piece and the CA set up it bonded the towel, the glove and my finger then started smoking and burned my finger before I could tear it off. Alas I think I come in a distant second to Bill B.

 

[Bill Boehme]

..... and burned my finger before I could tear it off.

I think that you have me beat if you tore your finger off.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

It sure is hard to drag my Robust American Beauty over to where I hope that I have my debonder stored. I suppose that the moral of that story is to never bond yourself to anything heavier that you are able to carry to where you have the debonder or heavier than you are willing to carry with you to Woodcraft or Rocklers to buy some debonder to replace the empty container that you have. BTW, be careful about applying debonder to your skin. Some debonders contain nitro-methane and others contain methylene chloride. Neither is particularly good for skin contact.

I have been using acetone to clean my fingers, seems to be working well.

 

[John Torchick]

I have been using acetone to clean my fingers, seems to be working well.

I buy acetone and DNA by the gallon. Cheaper than the pint or quart sizes.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

I think that you have me beat if you tore your finger off.

Not quite the burned skin on my index finger gave enough to leave the majority of my finger intact.

 

[Mike Adams]

I have been using acetone to clean my fingers, seems to be working well.

Lots of cheap nail polish remover is 100% acetone. The bottles are conveniently sized for me to stash them anywhere in the shop where I might find the opportunity to glue myself to some stationary object in the shop. Better to be prepared than wait for someone to come home...

 

[Dave Mueller]

CA will not stick very well to polyethylene (that's why it is sold in poly container). So, when applying thin CA as a finish on a pen, I protect my finger with one of the small poly bags that hold pen kit parts. You can also buy poly disposable gloves for about $7 for 500 on Amazon. As we have all discovered, CA loves to stick to nitrile and latex gloves - a waste of time and gloves.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

CA will not stick very well to polyethylene (that's why it is sold in poly container). So, when applying thin CA as a finish on a pen, I protect my finger with one of the small poly bags that hold pen kit parts. You can also buy poly disposable gloves for about $7 for 500 on Amazon. As we have all discovered, CA loves to stick to nitrile and latex gloves - a waste of time and gloves.

After reading this it seems obvious! Thanks to Dave for posting it.