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this is getting a litte too exciting and a Talon chuck question

Discussion in 'Getting Started' started by Hu Lowery, Apr 10, 2013.

  1. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    I have been trying to turn some four or five year old cedar. It doesn't appear rotten but is very light. It also has cracks in it despite drying indoors, I suspect my real issue.

    Just learning woodturning, I have my occasional catch and oops. A smallish piece broke a bit over a two inch tenon off and went across the way for no particularly good reason. Today I was turning a fairly large bowl, 10-12 inches, and had shaped the bottom, the tenon, and had hollowed as much as I could squeeze in to get out between the headstock and bowl rim. I cut a tenon just under the size I could hold with the #2 jaws on the Talon, maybe three and a quarter? I also turned a nearly full depth tenon, about seven-sixteenths. Definitely not bottomed out.

    My wood developed a wobble and I checked everything several times, couldn't find anything wrong and the piece seemed solidly attached to the spindle head. While taking a very light cut, just taking earlier turning marks off shaving hairs off of the piece, it broke loose and headed east. Didn't make it to the back fence but it made a run at it! Two to three pound chunk of wood, it could have left a mark. Did leave a tiny mark on my arm as the natural edge went by but no lasting damage.

    My thoughts are this cedar is just too dangerous to turn except maybe in some much smaller pieces with great care. might be lidded box material or something.

    Even prior to this I have noticed there is a good bit of play in my jaws on the Tenon chuck, I verified the secondary jaws were tightly attached to the base jaws, the play is in the chuck. I assume this is deliberate to deal with the dust and the jaw angles are designed to align properly after the slack is taken up. Can anyone confirm there is noticeable play in the chuck jaws normally? I'm used to metal lathe chucks so this beast is a new thing to me.

    Getting better all the time, I may produce a piece before snow flies!

    Hu
     
  2. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Cedar is not a very strong wood an splits easily.
    Not a Good wood for beginners and it will not survive a catch.
    On the plus side it is light and may cause you less serous injury than a heavy oak.

    The fact that you had a wobble told you something was wrong!
    Not finding out what was wrong did not make it go away.
    Perhaps the tenon was walking out of the chuck or the tenon was cracked.
    Continuing with an unknown wobble is bad luck.

    I suspect the problem is a combination of the wood which is already cracked and getting catches.

    What tools are you using?

    My suggestion would be to use faceplates and #12 sheet metal screw that go a full 1 1/2 inches into the wood
    A chuck won't hold a bowl if you get catches. Turn 3 bowls on faceplate in a row with no catches then go back to the chuck.

    If you are using the # 2 jaws you will get a better hold on a tenon that is 2" or maybe 2 1/4
    A three inch tenon in number 2 jaws won't hold too well
    Also you should make a flat for the tops of the jaws to rest on. Without the flat, the tenon will walk out of the chuck.

    Foremost, take a class, get some mentoring, or at least watch a bowl demonstration.
    Once you master the basic techniques turning is much more rewarding.

    Experience may be the best teacher but the exams are hell!


    Good luck

    al
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  3. Ian Thorn

    Ian Thorn

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    Please take notice of what AL has said plus use safty gear face shield and dust join a club and you will get lots of help and meet some great people have fun but stay safe

    Cheers Ian
     
  4. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Al and Ian have said it all.

    Cedar definitely is a splinter prone wood. Since you are having catches, it is time to back up and work on some basics. It is obvious that something is not being done correctly. Working on basics is not as much fun as bowl turning, but how much fun is launching bowls into suborbital trajectories? Well maybe only you and the person who does your laundry know exactly how exciting it is. There is plenty good reason to get excited -- you can seriously injure yourself or end your life.

    When you are turning, what is your main concentration focused on?

    • escape route to the nearest exit
    • loss of feeling in your hands due to white knuckles
    • wondering about relationship between woodturning and PTSD
    • can't remember
    • lost in simultaneously concentrating on the mechanics of holding the gouge, body movement, holding the right end of the tool, body position, etc.
    • knowing where the cutting edge is with respect to the wood and using your eyes to follow the development of the bowl curvature.
     
  5. MichaelMouse

    MichaelMouse

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    Assume from your location that you're turning local aromatic "cedar" (Juniperus virginiana), the red stuff with the white sapwood? http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/softwoods/aromatic-red-cedar/ Since nobody else asked before opining, I will. Sort of special stuff extremely prone to honeycombing when drying, providing a hidden place to catch a tool being "ridden", and with a sort of ribbed trunk that puts white stripes where we normally would have heartwood, also an unanticipated point of weakness. Western red, eastern white are more uniform, and though soft, succumb to a properly presented edge no worse than any other softwood. other kinds out there as well, none of which are actually cedar. Only other I can think of which might grow locally would be Spanish cedar, which is really light and smells like humidors!

    Talon #2 shows either ribbed or smooth, which want different treatment to some degree. Both need a shoulder to ride on, and neither want to be tightened to crush the fairly weak heartwood or weak softwood. Smooth want snug only, ribbed 1/4 turn past snug. The dovetail on the smooth will draw to shoulder, the ribs won't, so you'll want to press as you tighten to get the best seating. Then, if I might be so bold, I suggest you leave a pillar in the center to maintain clamping pressure and a hold that will help keep things from cracking at the base of the tenon if you slip up with the gouge. Use it until you're as hollow as you want to be, then part and snap. Other thing you might want to consider is reinforcing the tenon by running in some thin CA on its endgrain. Put it on to refusal, allow to cure, then remove the very surface to take out irregularities before chucking up.
     
  6. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    WOW, a bunch of good information!

    I am going to respond to all in order: It will be a long post but probably better than four different replies! My answers will be inserted in blue.

    Al first:

    Cedar is not a very strong wood an splits easily.
    a Good wood for beginners and it will not survive a catch.
    On the plus side it is light and may cause you less serous injury than a heavy oak.


    MichaelMouse's educated guess concerning the wood down below is spot on, an unusually bad choice for a beginner!

    The fact that you had a wobble told you something was wrong!

    I fully agree. I realized that was a stupid mistake before the wood stopped rolling!

    Not finding out what was wrong did not make it go away.
    Perhaps the tenon was walking out of the chuck or the tenon was cracked.
    Continuing with an unknown wobble is bad luck.

    I suspect the problem is a combination of the wood which is already cracked and getting catches.

    Yes and yes, can add improper chucking, too much force, assuming the info Mike gives below is correct. A local mentor or instruction would have prevented overtightening the chuck.

    What tools are you using?

    Bear with me while I explain a little. Hurricane Isaac took the home I lived in, one of my shops, and caused everything salvageable to be crammed almost ceiling to floor in a 12x20 storage bay. Household stuff got mixed in and piled in front of shop stuff. I had just bought half of a woodworking home shop including three or four sets of lathe chisels, a carbide rouging tool, and bowl gouges. Somehow all of this has disappeared hopefully to be found later although I have dug mightily searching. Seems silly to buy skews and such I already have and the expenses after the storm have left me unable to anyway. My total tools will explain a bit of my grief. They consist of a very low quality parting tool, all I found of the stuff I owned, it came with something else and was in a junk box. A Crown 5/8" diameter, half inch callout, bowl gouge, still square cut.(I wanted smaller, bought what was in stock.) A Henry Taylor ST 2000 tool with the three tips. Loaned to me brand new from a friend, another bigger tool than needed but very hard to look a gift horse in the mouth. Wish I knew why these were taken off the market. My final tool is a 1/2" by 36" rod, probably drill rod, that I use a 4.5 inch side grinder to shape the end as needed at the moment. Sharpening equipment is three little tiny diamond hones used by hand. My tooling might be slightly lacking at the moment but is what I have. I do carefully maintain the angles sharpening so they are still close to original but the hollow grinds are gone where there was one.

    My suggestion would be to use faceplates and #12 sheet metal screw that go a full 1 1/2 inches into the wood
    A chuck won't hold a bowl if you get catches. Turn 3 bowls on faceplate in a row with no catches then go back to the chuck.


    My faceplate set-up was using 1/4" screws, not too pleased with the unfinished back on the cast chuck, from Sears I assume.

    If you are using the # 2 jaws you will get a better hold on a tenon that is 2" or maybe 2 1/4
    A three inch tenon in number 2 jaws won't hold too well
    Also you should make a flat for the tops of the jaws to rest on. Without the flat, the tenon will walk out of the chuck.


    I do agree about an optimum size and the further away you get from it the worse normally. OneWay claims these new wave jaws grip equally well throughout their working range. I can see how that could work from my mechanical design background but it also means that the chuck doesn't have the grip of a more specialized chuck at any opening.

    Foremost, take a class, get some mentoring, or at least watch a bowl demonstration.
    Once you master the basic techniques turning is much more rewarding.

    Experience may be the best teacher but the exams are hell!


    I can't disagree with a word here, particularly the last line! It seems I have a very active chapter of the AAW not far away and meeting this Saturday. I'm short on cash but maybe a small wood or tool bribe will get me a little mentoring. My current knowledge has came from DVD's, video on the net, and reading. Obviously this leaves gaps and I have had two minutes personal mentoring do me a world of good a couple times in the past. The things that are obvious to experienced turners making video's aren't always so obvious to a beginner.

    Good luck

    al

    Thanks for the assistance and the wish of luck. I'll need both!




    Please take notice of what AL has said plus use safty gear face shield and dust join a club and you will get lots of help and meet some great people have fun but stay safe

    Cheers Ian


    Ian, I am working on joining a club and the AAW. Also going to upgrade my safety gear as soon as possible. Meantime I am trying to maintain the same operating practices learned in a lot of hours turning metal. Bowls and vessels from wood are quite a bit different and I know basically nothing about wood or turning tools. My metal lathes and cue lathe use tool post set-ups.

    Thank you for your post and suggestions!




    Al and Ian have said it all.

    Cedar definitely is a splinter prone wood. Since you are having catches, it is time to back up and work on some basics. It is obvious that something is not being done correctly. Working on basics is not as much fun as bowl turning, but how much fun is launching bowls into suborbital trajectories? Well maybe only you and the person who does your laundry know exactly how exciting it is. There is plenty good reason to get excited -- you can seriously injure yourself or end your life.

    When you are turning, what is your main concentration focused on?

    escape route to the nearest exit
    loss of feeling in your hands due to white knuckles
    wondering about relationship between woodturning and PTSD
    can't remember
    lost in simultaneously concentrating on the mechanics of holding the gouge, body movement, holding the right end of the tool, body position, etc.
    knowing where the cutting edge is with respect to the wood and using your eyes to follow the development of the bowl curvature.



    Bill, our writing styles seem similar. A little humor but delivering a serious message. In truth the wood breaking loose didn't make my pulse race. Wood is a bit scary to me because I don't know enough to judge the properties of an individual piece, or even sometimes the species as this thread makes obvious. I have many hours in on my own metal lathes and mill I once owned and from time spent working in a jobshop machine shop. Fear isn't an issue, have to remember caution. Every time I change a set-up or walk away awhile I spin up the machine standing to the side first after checking everything. I treat lathes much like a gun. If you don't check if a gun is loaded every time you pick it up, sooner or later it will be. If you don't check everything is tight, secure, and in the positions they should be around a lathe or other shop equipment, sooner or later it is going to bite you hard!

    The truth is I could list a dozen good reasons I shouldn't turn what I am attempting to turn and just be getting started on the list. I have weighed the considerations and decided to turn. There are risks, including some risks most don't share, that I have accepted. Hopefully, I will get past the rookie blues without too much damage!

    Thank you for still another helpful post. I learn from all and will reread this thread until I own all the information in it.




    Assume from your location that you're turning local aromatic "cedar" (Juniperus virginiana), the red stuff with the white sapwood? http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-...tic-red-cedar/ Since nobody else asked before opining, I will. Sort of special stuff extremely prone to honeycombing when drying, providing a hidden place to catch a tool being "ridden", and with a sort of ribbed trunk that puts white stripes where we normally would have heartwood, also an unanticipated point of weakness. Western red, eastern white are more uniform, and though soft, succumb to a properly presented edge no worse than any other softwood. other kinds out there as well, none of which are actually cedar. Only other I can think of which might grow locally would be Spanish cedar, which is really light and smells like humidors!

    Michael, local, red with white sapwood. Not a very strong smell with this stuff compared to something like they line closets with. Suspect it is local aromatic cedar with all of it's flaws for a beginner. I collected it locally after another named storm planning to core it for a pool cue or use it as sleeve material. No interest in wood turning when I collected it.

    Talon #2 shows either ribbed or smooth, which want different treatment to some degree. Both need a shoulder to ride on, and neither want to be tightened to crush the fairly weak heartwood or weak softwood. Smooth want snug only, ribbed 1/4 turn past snug. The dovetail on the smooth will draw to shoulder, the ribs won't, so you'll want to press as you tighten to get the best seating.

    These are the ribbed, new design "wave" jaws according to the paperwork. Although they are ribbed I also get the impression they pull the wood into the jaws slightly. I do hold the wood firmly in place while chucking, a lot of experience chucking other materials. Totally out to lunch on tightening the wood judging by your information and could be the final straw that is breaking the camel's back. Would you define snug as perhaps the grip to hold a baby animal without it escaping or a bit tighter? Regardless, from working with metal and plastic I am almost certain I overtightened from reading your description and then tightened slightly more multiple times when checking chuck pressure.

    Then, if I might be so bold, I suggest you leave a pillar in the center to maintain clamping pressure and a hold that will help keep things from cracking at the base of the tenon if you slip up with the gouge. Use it until you're as hollow as you want to be, then part and snap.

    Excellent advice, I could have kept the tenon longer, have even seen it done in a video I watched. The wood was very light for it's size and fairly well balanced at this point. I didn't see the need for keeping a tenon, beginner error here too.

    Other thing you might want to consider is reinforcing the tenon by running in some thin CA on its endgrain. Put it on to refusal, allow to cure, then remove the very surface to take out irregularities before chucking up.

    Never saw this anywhere or considered it while using thin CA to reinforce other areas. Yet another idea to put into practice.

    Thanks very much for digging into specifics and giving very specific suggestions, should help a bunch!



    Thanks to everyone. I will assemble a "cheat sheet" from this thread and put it by my lathe with a few other reminders. I am working with sharp tooling so most of my catches are just cuts and longish clean gouges, not violent catches. I also have some oak and wild cherry on the ground to pick up when weather and the land owner's time permits. Still not ideal wood for a beginner but it is much fresher and should be much more structurally sound than the cedar and partially rotten pecan I have tried to work with. I am working with the limitations I have to deal with right now. I can't complain though, I saw video of a man turning chess pieces with his toes with his human powered lathe. He would think he was in hog heaven with electricity, . . . or he might go bleh, I can do better without it! Either way, some better off than me, some a lot worse off. I will sort out woodturning with a little time and the excellent advice so freely given. Thank you all again, the assistance is much much appreciated!

    Hu Lowery
     
  7. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Hu, a great many catches with bowl gouges are the result of the tool rotating. Not know your experience, I will try to briefly explain what that is caused by.

    Basically, when the wood is being cut, there is a force exerted on the tool by the wood as it is rotating past the edge. That direction is downward so that it is pushing the tool against the toolrest with a considerable amount of force. That is fine and dandy except for one thing -- the tool shank is round. Being round means that the tool can suddenly rotate if the downward force and the upward reaction are not in line with one another. When the tool suddenly rotates, the right part of the cutting edge is no longer cutting the right part of the wood. We call that a "catch" because we needed a word that could be used in polite company, however, we know what another turner is really saying when he invokes the word. We don't like to say the "c" word, so how do we keep the tool from rotating? The solution is to keep the part of the edge that is doing the cutting centered over the tool so that the downward force is going through the middle of the tool and not off to one side. This may seem too confusing to follow initially, but after doing it once or twice, I think that the picture will become apparent. The other thing is maintaining the desired angle of the edge to the wood. Once past that fundamental hump, the rest of the process is simply cutting to achieved the desired shape. That is the only hard part of woodturning -- creating an aesthetically pleasing shape. At the most basic level, that means pleasing yourself only. However, all of us eventually reach the point of thinking about pleasing others unless we have a very large warehouse to store all our creations. :D
     
  8. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Hu,
    Go to that club meeting!

    At the very least ask if there is anyone who wold let you watch them turn a bowl.

    The bowl gouge properly sharpened will do all the turning on the bowl, the parting tool can shape the tenon.
    I prefer a spindle gouge for truing tenons but a lot of good turners use a parting tool


    What bill said above on avoiding catches is excellent advice.
    I always hold the tool handle against my body. Bill may have said it and I missed it.
    This keeps the tool from rotating when it shouldn't. I cut the wood mostly by rotating my body and shifting weight from one foot to the forward foot which s pointed generally in the direction of the cutThe hands and arms don't do much.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  9. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    my experience


    Bill,

    I do understand exactly what you are saying, in theory sitting here at the computer. I have felt the tool trying to rotate quite a few times trying to get a big gouge in a small deep opening. Destroyed one piece fighting the same catch over and over trying to figure out why it was catching hollowing. I could see that the corners weren't catching. What I didn't know before finding a pretty good video on basics put on the net by The Golden Triangle woodturners was that I had the gouge rotated far too far open.

    I am still at the point where I get confused or uncertain on the lathe sometimes when swapping tools or areas of the piece I am working on. I often shut down and verify I am attacking at the right angles and always try to start with a modest cut. I am aware that the tool is often rotating when it catches, sometimes I just plain approach the wood wrong or get out of position a few degrees and a point I don't want to contact does and I get a nasty slice or long nasty gouge which means I will have to take a tenth or more off an area I thought was at final shape.

    One reason I am trying to cut some every day is to build the automatic recognition of how I need to present the tool. Until I get a small building or two moved here I am working on my back patio, open to the world other than an aluminum roof. Thank goodness for understanding landladies on this old farm! Lines of heavy rain moving through today and no wood that is wise to turn so I'm doing other things including a thorough refacing of my gouges and hollowing tool.

    I have less than forty hours total time on a wood lathe using turning tools and am still working on my first barrel of shavings. Much of that time was of questionable value until I got past some major equipment and tooling issues. A bit greener than grass. The cue lathes and particularly the metal machines teach angles and leverage in a hurry. transferring that knowledge to the wood lathe and turning tools takes a little time and experience. Somebody mentioned something about patients too, I have to admit I didn't understand that part. I'm not a doctor.;)

    Hu
     
  10. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I didn't say it so thanks for mentioning it. I was trying to be brief in my description which is not my usual style. Keeping the tool next to the body not only helps stabilize the tool from rotating, but it also facilitate cutting smoother curves.

    If you cut with your hand that is towards the back of the handle just flailing in the breeze rather than being tucked against your body, it will be much more difficult to make a smoothly curved surface (a smooth curve is not quite the same thing as a smooth finish, but things work better when they go hand-in-hand).
     
  11. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    doing fairly well there


    Between watching video and doing much the same thing when I did auto body repair I am pretty good about anchoring the back of the tool.(yes I have done a lot of things over the years, a friend has been making a list and it is over twenty items long. "Jack of all trades, master of . . ." I forget how the rest of that goes.)

    Thinking I want fairly long handles on most of my tools. Doing other things it is bad practice to put your hand over the end of a tool or to jam the end into your body. A handle that reaches just past my anchor point most of the time seems like a good idea. Of course it can be a little awkward at times too. Debating the modular tools with the straight handles, I sure like the feel of a well shaped wood handle though so the jury is still out on that one.

    I have a few thoughts about tool handles but a wise old friend once told me that he was sure that after I finished reinventing the wheel it would be rounder and better than ever. I laughed but took the hint. I'm probably not quite ready to reinvent how wood is turned yet!

    Hu
     
  12. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    Thanks!


    Thanks! I am very familiar with handling tools this way, it is often the best way to do auto body repair, something I have done in the past. Good to be reminded it applies to the lathe too. I did have a tendency to want to swing the hand at first, watching video and catching myself I have largely broke that habit before it gained much traction.

    I see better with my fingers than my eyes too, another carry over from body work.

    Hu
     
  13. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I could lie and say that I never had any nerve wrecking bowl shattering doomsday catches before things suddenly clicked one day. Nah, you wouldn't believe me anyway so I won't say it. That does not mean I no longer have catches. I have had a few lapses of concentration where I unintentionally poked a spinning turning with the business end of a tool.

    Here is something that worked for me and might possibly work for you. I was overloading my brain with trying to concentrate on a multitude of of things simultaneously. Things clicked when I figured out that I only needed to focus on just one thing -- how the bevel meets the wood. Rather than getting all wrapped around the axle thinking about where the handle ought to be and what the roll angle should be and the phase of the moon, I just looked at the bevel meeting the wood. If that is right then it stands to reason that everything else has to be right, given that the tool is a rigid body -- I don't need to look at my hand or foot positions or any of that other distracting stuff (within reason of course). I'm not not saying to be oblivious to dangers like poking your fingers into a spinning hunk of wood. Just put down the mental protractor that beginners use to measure body angles.
     
  14. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I see that you are probably well past some of my suggestions. I think that practice is the main thing now. Your other skills have given you a great advantage over most beginners. If I get a chance, I will post a picture of my first bowl.
     
  15. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    I'm trying to always bring the tool in almost closed when practical, angle and rotation, then open up. An issue I'm sure all wrestled with at one time is remembering to control the tool at all times when it is close to the piece. I am trying to implement a three inch minimum rule, come in and bring it back out on line until the tool is three inches from the outer edge of the piece. This is because I want to rest the business end of the tool on the tool rest and then position it. When the piece is spinning less than a quarter inch away . . . um, I think the way you said to spell that is C A T C H. Doesn't sound like that though. I sometimes get sloppy withdrawing the tool from a deep hole too. That shouldn't be an issue but I think I'm turning too long of sessions sometimes and losing focus a little bit. Schooled that out when making shortrun production runs of a few dozen or a few hundred pieces, out of practice though and I need to get back in the groove of working around a machine.

    While I do know that as close as possible is the general rule I seem to be able to manage my tool a little better if my rest is 1/2 to 3/4 inch off of the piece. Still have plenty of leverage for a moderate grip to I have to learn what works for me within the rules of general safe practice. I'm still trying to find the right spindle height for me and a few things.

    I am working very hard to try to get this going. The information you and others are providing is a big help and just talking about it forces me to think about what I am doing right and wrong, always a good thing.

    Thanks very much for taking this time with me. It is sincerely much appreciated!

    Hu
     
  16. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    the gaps are the issue!



    I do bring a lot of experience doing many different things to the table. The danger is that it is easy to assume I know a critical step here and there that I don't have a clue about. A lot of truth to the old saying, "the devil is in the details." I can't figure out where to store a picture to post myself but I took one yesterday of an almost full garbage can of shavings and a little brandy snifter shaped vessel in the top of them. That is pretty much my total collected work woodturning. I know how to do great and wonderful things with and on some machines. I am woefully ignorant concerning holding the wood and cutting it with conventional turning tools.

    I do agree that I need a ton of practice which I am trying to gain in a hurry. Please don't overestimate my knowledge though. The gaps in my knowledge can and might get me in a world of trouble such as misusing the wood chuck. One thing, I do know the machines and the material can badly maim or kill, I respect them. Hopefully that will help keep me out of most trouble.

    Hu
     
  17. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Here is a picture of my first bowl. It did not really deserve setting up my real photo equipment so I just used an iPhone to grab a shot.

    stuff-104_web.jpg

    If you want to know how to post an image, here are the steps:

    1. Beneath the text box where you enter your message, there is a section called Additional Options. Inside that section is a button labeled Manage Attachments. Click on it.
    2. There will be a pop-up window where you can enter the file location either on your computer on the web if you have an online gallery. In my case, the file is on my computer so I clicked on the button labeled Browse.
    3. This opens up another window labeled File Upload. Navigate to the file location, click on the file name, and then click Open. That window then closes.
    4. Back at the first pop-up window, click the Upload button. Note that you have file size limitations and if the file is too large, it won't upload.
    5. Close the pop-up window.
    6. Now, back at the box where you are entering the text for your post, click where you wish to insert the image, then notice the symbols at the top of the text box. Click on the paperclip symbol. You will see the filename in a little pop-up -- Click on it.
    7. An attach code will appear where you clicked in the previous step.
    8. That's all there is to it. If you want to see how it looks, you can click on the Preview Post button that is next to the Submit Reply button. When you are satisfied that everything looks the way that you want, click Submit Reply.
    The "bowl" was made in a class conducted by a local woodworking store. The instructor didn't really know how to teach turning, but he was a nice guy and we became friends for quite a while. He did encourage me to join the local woodturning club and I followed his suggestion. It was the best thing that I could have done to get on the right track to really learning about turning. I suppose that I could try could try to claim that I did some surface embellishments including carving and piercing. :D

    It is a world class example of everything that a bowl should not be, but we all start at ground zero from where there is only one direction to go.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  18. Dean Center

    Dean Center

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    Hu,
    If I read your original post correctly, you have found some play in your chuck. I'm not familiar with the one-way, but in the nova chucks I have, this often comes from the grub screw that secures the insert getting loose, producing movement between the insert and the chuck. If the one-way doesn't use an insert, perhaps some of the board members could address this potentially worrisome problem.
     
  19. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    that isn't the issue here


    Dean,

    I took it as far down as I dared with the three screws that pull the Talon and insert together and remain to secure the insert. After running awhile they do tighten down a little further although the screws are scary tight to turn. Stuck the whole thing in the freezer and I'll check if I can move things any more in thirty minutes. That is the kind of thing born again bachelors can do, hard to explain machinery in the freezer to the wife unit.

    Hu
     
  20. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    The Oneway scroll chucks do not use setscrews. The insert and the body have a precision taper fit not unlike a Morse taper connection. Cap screws are also used to pull the two mating pieces together for a very tight fit.

    As I understood it, the looseness that was mentioned was referring to the bit of play between the scroll and inner jaws when nothing is being held. This is something that all woodturning scroll chucks have in common if I am not mistaken. Once the jaws are loaded either in compression or expansion, the free play is no longer a factor and and the alignment is precise.
     
  21. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    at least you have a bowl to show


    Bill,

    My first two attempts were near enough the bottom of my shavings that they now rest on the top of my burn pile. Maybe I should have some kind of a ceremony or maybe I should just place my Reeves drive on top of the pile and let things rip! The thing took a dump this evening, less than ten hours run time since I tore it down. I guess I need to look into the proper lubricant for the half pulleys on the shaft and I will do a more thorough job on the sanding this time too. I took it apart and put it together without a puller last time, I'll construct one this time. Something else I don't want to take too many chances with.

    The sun burst through the line of storms for a few minutes this evening and I felt the need to turn. Went up the road and got 4 six foot sections of cherry log. It was a tree last week, wet to say the least. I cut a section off that might make a bowl and then grabbed the next piece to turn. It was heavier than expected and with balance issues a concern and my bandsaw seventy miles up the road I went on and leveled an end a bit and put a faceplate on with four 1/4" lag bolts, about 1-1/4" into the wood. The bark is very well attached, I will have to try a natural rim soon from this. A pretty good shake to the lathe at low speed so I got out my small reciprocating saw to trim it. Then I got out my chainsaw to trim it. Spun like a top after that.

    I'm having a little trouble taking end grain from rough sawn and at an angle to flat and smooth. I'll have to watch video, don't know if I am doing something wrong or there just isn't any quick way to do it. Then I am rounding the corner from the tailstock end of the bowl forward, out of the way of anything going south. Then peel the bark off in a few passes. Once I was cutting nothing but sapwood that stuff cut like wax, could have scooped it off with a spoon. That changed a little when I got down to heart wood but still not bad. Soon after my machine started making unhappy sounds and quit working. The tiny belt that goes to what looks like a governer on the front had hopped off because a pulley had came loose and moved. The lower sheave on the variable drive is stuck open too, no joy in Mudville tonight!

    I guess I will have to snap a picture of bowls one and two on the burn pile for posterity. This is bowl three. The problem is it was a goblet. The pith was nonexistent at the top of my end grain blank, fairly small and to one side on bottom. I knew it might be an issue but I was turning to learn and wanted to cut. Got down to making the stem small and discovered the pith was far larger there and absolutely shattered long ago brown wood.

    None of my stuff is sanded well when it isn't a keeper. I do know how to sand to get a finish, body work again, but I'm not doing that much work without power tools for these stinkers!

    Hu
     

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  22. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    You should save your first bowl or pieces of it whichever the case. It will serve as a reminder of your progress. It seems to be some sort of unstated requirement that woodturners save one of their first pieces that can be recognized as at least an attempt to make a bowl. Their purpose is not for bragging rights -- it's more like self-deprecation.

    Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with Reeves drives that are properly made which usually means machined cast iron. However, woodturning lathes with Reeves drives made in the last ten years or so are cheaply made and ought to be against the law. My first lathe was a Delta 1440 Iron Bed lathe. It had a Reeves drive. During the first few years, it spent more time being repaired than being used to turn wood. The good news is that Delta provided me with any and all parts that I requested free-of-charge. I spent a lot of time making design improvements and wrote a lot about my investigations and design upgrades on this forum as well as Sawmill Creek and Wood Online. These improvements even included machining improved parts for the yoke assembly. However, the fatal flaw in the deign was the die cast zinc variable pulleys. They were far too fragile for this application and there was no mod that could sufficiently remedy that. If you do a search using my name and Reeves drive, you can probably find some of the threads.

    As soon as the lathe went out of production, they quit supporting it. The remnants of that lathe sits in my shop. I started a project to rebuild it using an electronic variable speed drive, but the project went into hibernation after I got my Robust American Beauty lathe. It is the ultimate dream machine. Mine has all the bells and whistles and weighs close to a thousand pounds as currently equipped.

    One of the best videos on bowl turning is by Bill Grumbine. He has two videos -- the first one covers the basics and the second has some more advanced information. His videos are both entertaining and enlightening. I highly recommend getting at least the one covering the basics.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  23. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    Thanks!


    Bill,

    I will dig for everything you have written on the Reeves drive before I attack it after getting some sleep. I do have cast iron pulleys on this old Craftsman. It takes very little rust to freeze the pulley but I'm wondering if a bad signal from the governer might be the issue. I have no clue how that part works other than it has a set of points, I suspect to shut down things. The lower pulley with the yoke is the one not closing maybe I won't even have to pull the top, hey I can dream!

    I have been talking to Bill Grumbine a little, another very nice and helpful guy! I was interested in seeing the Vega in action used by someone who was a master woodturner so he managed to find me a copy of his second DVD which is on it's way now. The first one probably would have been a better one for me to learn from but in typical fashion I am already planning a year or two down the road, maybe a lot sooner if I decide that smaller Vega bowl lathe is a viable step. Seems like a lot of bang for the buck but might be running entirely off of step pulleys, I'm not sure.

    Seems I will end up with one of the unconventional lathes or spend a bunch of time turning outboard to be able to get to things. May find myself working seated a good bit. That really seems to be the ticket from the little testing I have done, some work standing, some seated. That would require an easy way to raise and lower the lathe if I'm just using one but I don't think that would be too tough to set up. A lot of long range planning for someone that hasn't turned their first bowl yet! I do like the early impression I have of this cherry. Between rotten pecan and the cedar I don't know if I have given myself much chance to succeed so far. In some respects I have been focused more on process than finished product. One of my first bowls did blow up, the other broke in half and is still thick enough to glue and return. The spalted pecan one. Notice the beautiful cast iron base it is sitting on! :D

    Hu
     

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  24. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Pretty piece of wood.

    I may harvest some pecan wood if I can find the time. My brother is a pecan grower and lost around 100 trees due to the severe drouth last year. I told him to save a few for me, but he has been dozing and burning most of them.
     
  25. MichaelMouse

    MichaelMouse

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    The bird business is from somewhere else. I say snug when things don't move any more because gaps are closed where contact can be developed. With the ribbed jaws, you have to have a bit of bite to keep things from pulling out, because if you get the nose of the jaws off the shoulder, they will. Thus the 1/4 turn. Danger in squashing is that you push the nose off the shoulder. Oneway is proud of that design, but the ribs were still symmetrical wedges last time I held one. Pushes wood both ways. Dovetail doesn't.

    Photobucket is OTL this morning, but I can post some video of digging with the bowl gouge if you're interested. They also show the between centers method for stabilizing while hollowing. I can't follow the description of the rolling gouge business above, however. With the pressure on the lower inside of the flute, my shaving wants to rotate the gouge clockwise inside the bowl when cutting rim to bottom. That is a safe direction, rather than counter clockwise, which might catch. In general, however, if you keep air above the gouge as you cut, you shouldn't catch. Means belly of gouge above center out, below center inside.
     
  26. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    thanks!


    Michael,

    Thanks for the explanation of snug, it means much different things to different people and in different areas of endeavor. I did find that last failed tenon. Sharp marks in the tenon, no slippage or movement, the structural integrity of the cedar failed. Could easily have been a hidden crack and there were streaks of sapwood in it. Of the eight places the jaw bit, one place the wood failed. I have to believe that was not an issue though or the marks would not be sharp and clean in the other positions. Wish I had my decent camera working, I can't get good enough pictures with the cell to post.

    I always welcome more video. I don't always quite understand and then watching one more makes everything clear or one more thing said makes everything clear.

    One issue I have is not being able to grind, my tools would work better inside with a different nose profile. Another is the all 5/8" diameter tooling, I notice far better turners than I am swap to smaller tooling inside the bell of a vessel. Finally, sometimes I just need to stop and nuke things out. In one respect turning and hollowing is very simple. As much as possible I need to keep the direction of force on the tool through the centerline of the tool and directly down into the tool rest. The cutting edge needs a space to escape into if it does start to catch. Those two simple things would keep me out of trouble.

    Of course the trick is in the execution. I'm getting better but it looks like today will be spent getting things together and working on the Reeves drive instead of working on a bowl for show and tell tomorrow. Just the way things go, another meeting next month. The way the need to turn hit yesterday afternoon I'm starting to think I may need to go to weekly meetings of a different kind. "Hello my name is Hu, I am addicted to shavings . . ."

    Edit: The Reeves drive lives! Just the threat of infernal combustion was enough to make it straighten up and fly right. Guess I turn today after all.

    Hu
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  27. MichaelMouse

    MichaelMouse

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    This is slow and she's shooting too low, but you can follow the ejection angle of the shavings, the shape of the opposite edge and the swing to see how the cut progresses. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/HollowOne001.mp4.html You swing the tool so that the tip is stabbing to enter, preventing the "skating" mentioned by a critic in another thread, then roll the gouge CCW slightly to grab the shaving you want as you advance the nose. Little bit of practice on pull cuts will show you how to keep the shavings from running around the U and into your face.

    Faster, and with a bit of material out of the way for a better look. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/HollowTwo001.mp4.html The entry and roll you see working center out is the same as the rim in method. That big old knot with the mineral stain dulled the daylights out of the gouge, or the video might have been a bit longer. I think that's one reason you see people reaching for other gouges. If the one in use is starting to rip, grab an sharper one from the rack. It's not necessarily the opening available, though I grind my smaller so they will cut a bit steeper than the big ones.

    Main thing is to swing the tool into and through imbalanced/irregular shapes even to the point of exit, rather than try to stuff the gouge in there, push, and force the issue. Only move ahead when you have some circularity to bump up against where you've been.

    Your analysis of cuts is spot on. I find the broad sweep constant angle bevel gouges work beautifully with that procedure.

    This is what, I think, someone else was talking about when they talked about the tool rotating and catching. Cut is on the wrong side of the tool, though the angle of the grind effectively skews it to slip under. If you have shorter edge grinds, you can work a bit more safely, otherwise, it's a technique of convenience only for me. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/PillarSmall.mp4.html

    Remember to tighten your toolrest, unlike the dummy in the first clip. :eek: You can follow the cut on the opposite side while standing erect rather than twisting and bending your back and risking your face by leaning in. Eyes there, and tactile feedback are a good combination.
     
  28. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    It looks like there might be a bowl in there somewhere . . .

    Here is my work in progress with the cherry. It sat overnight, indoors, then I wrapped it in a towel and took it to the woodturners meeting in a zipped canvas bag. Still starting to crack by this afternoon so I turned on it. Nothing fancy, there is a slight taper inwards towards the top but it is heavy and square looking and the walls are thick. A little over five inches wide and should finish about four inches tall. Still trying to stay very conservative with it and just make a finished bowl. Ran out of time and get up & go tonight so I wiped it down with mineral oil to hopefully soak in a bit, slung some butchers block oil on it, and wished it luck until tomorrow. Have only sanded sixty grit. If it holds it's shape well I might turn a little more. If not, sand, turn a lollipop, and clean up the bottom and call the first one done. It will leave plenty of room for improvement!


    Michael,

    Thanks a bunch for the video links and the good information in your post. I will watch the video and reread everything tomorrow. Everything pretty much a blur tonight after a very long day.

    Pretty sure this is bowl #5. Maybe the fifth time will be the charm!

    Hu
     

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  29. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    If it holds water then it's a bowl. ;)

    I do not recall ever turning cherry so I have no idea how it behaves. However, the abrupt change in slope from the bottom to the side may be a contributor to cracks developing. Turning thin is normally a good way to minimize cracking, but it also means more movement during drying. Keeping the wood moist between turning sessions is my strategy to minimize cracking. I have a spray bottle to mist the wood and then wrap it up in a plastic grocery sack. There is no need to tightly seal the sack.

    Maple is a nice wood to turn since the grain is even and it does not warp much. Don't pass up free wood even if is is not the most desirable, at the very least it should be good for practice. I just got some cottonwood from a home that is about to be burned down. I don't know what it might be like, but I'll find out. I suspect that it will be soft and fuzzy.
     
  30. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    Fighting the end grain

    Bill,

    While I know the end grain is always tougher to cut than the side grain this cherry seems to take that to extremes. The sapwood cuts fantastic, the heartwood substantially tougher, then I am really wrestling with the end grain. Wants to tear with more than a feather touch and I have to sharpen every couple of minutes. My tools are in bad need of regrinding, I think I can climb over stuff to get a grinder with a white wheel out of storage. It has a baseplate mounted that indicates a sharpening system, probably a Wolverine missing or lost. That song is getting pretty old! I have watched Bill Grumbine's DVD three times now, it is a help. Fixing to drag my laptop by my lathe and see how it likes a few chips.

    I am not ready to move my bandsaw so I may have to spend a day sawing bowl blanks where it is at to be able to turn these across the grain. As mentioned the balance was just too bad to turn cross grain without cutting it round. The cherry is heavy, this is native cherry not orchard stuff so it may be completely different. I can't remember it making any fruit but it does make tons of little white flowers so it might make a tiny berry or cherry too.

    The abrupt change was annoying to deal with, didn't think about it causing structural issues too. I have some meat down there so I may be able to reshape a good bit. Almost three in the morning and it has been raining for hours, 70% tomorrow so my open air shop may not be usable. One issue being a born again bachelor, house keeping! I live alone so I won't mention any names but somebody has been scattering wood chips everywhere inside. Thinking about an apron to catch some of them. Somebody needs to run a vacuum cleaner indoors, afraid that someone will be me!

    My lathe is on a bench right now but I'm finding the only way to get an angle I can work with using these tools with short bevels is to climb on the bench for hollowing or since this headstock swivels, once I have to quit using the tailstock anyway I turn it a few degrees outboard for access while still being able to leave the banjo and toolrest mounted normally.

    Got to shut down the computer, been running on battery for the last few hours to protect from lightning and the battery looks to be about dead.

    Hu


     
  31. CTutor

    CTutor

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    Cedar

    When the bowl took off did the tenon stay with the bowl or is it stuck in the chuck. If stuck in the chuck jaws you probably "cut" into the tenon with the jaws. On occasion when I turn a soft wood that prone to split I put CA glue around the tenon to give it strength and stabilize it.

    Not familiar with the Talon but does it have tapered or straight jaws? If tapered are you certain you did not kind of dig into the bottom of the tenon when you put the taper. Make the shoulder at the tenon base truly flat and wide enough to support the jaws?

    Sometimes even before I start turning a piece of problematical wood I put a coat of lacquer or sanding sealer all around the bowl. Some woods just need more support then others. Finally I always keep my tail stock up tight until I must back it off to start hollowing. I generally shape the outside of a BE bowl close to finish before I attempt to holow and always keep the tail stock up until I have to move it out of the way.
     
  32. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Well, I came into this one late. Cedar tends to split easily, Check! Tenon was the right diameter, Check! Chuck was snugged up, and not over tightened? Not sure about that one. Do snug it up in each key a couple of times, more important for big (12 inch and above diameter). Tenon might have been too long: from a class with Stuart Batty, he commented that almost bottoming out puts more stress on the tenon, and makes it more likely to crack: 1/4 to 3/16 inch deep is plenty. If it was wobbling while turning, some thing is loose. I have found the set screws on the chuck jaws can loosen up. I don't use locktite on them though, even though I have chucks with dedicated sets of jaws that I never change out. If it starts out spinning true, and then starts to wobble, that means some thing is loose, and loose things tend to go into orbit.

    robo hippy
     
  33. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Mike Mahoney said the same thing except he seems to like an even shorter tenon if using dovetail jaws. Imagine them agreeing? :D Actually they are good buds and enjoy ribbing each other. We have had both of them here at our club for classes and they were together at SWAT a few years ago doing their "Two Ways to Turn a Bowl" program. Additionally, Mike likes to expand the jaws way out even to the point of removing the roll pin that limits maximum expansion to something safe. ;)

    Actually, a longer tenon has less stress than a short one because the total tightening force is the same for a long and short tenon, but the force is spread over a larger surface area. It sounds like Stu is also believing that the dovetail angle is leading to longitudinal force. In actuality fiction prevents this from happening. Maybe if the wood was Teflon® coated ...

    I didn't agree with his rationale on a couple points, but there is no point trying to tell a pro who has turned thousands of bowls and other stuff that either his rationale might have flaws even if the method is valid or that maybe sometimes they are mistaken, but skilled enough to not have issues.

    The two points where I do not fully agree are:

    1. Dovetail jaws are better than the Oneway design that uses the ridges with a wave design. They probably are for the short tenon that Mike makes, but the story that he gives doesn't hold water -- if the grip loosens, it will pull the tenon inwards and tighter against the shoulder of the dovetail jaws.
      • There is only one diameter where this might be true, but even then the tenon would still be loose because the chuck jaws are a position holding device and not a force holding device like a spring clamp.
      • At the wide open position that he uses for the jaws, there are only eight sharp points of contact and they are digging into the tenon. If something happens to cause the wood to move then the tenon will be damaged by the sharp edges and the alleged benefits of a dovetail jaw won't happen. With the extremely short tenon used, the slight dovetail angle is hardly worth mentioning. He does keep the tailstock against the work so that reduces problems considerably.
      • I do agree that the way that he (and Stu Batty) make their short tenons that the Oneway style jaws are not as good at holding unless the tenon is lengthened at least 1/4 inch.
    2. Mike said that the serrated jaws crush the wood fibers and push the tenon shoulder away from the top of the jaws. I have not found that to be the case except when the wood is punky and probably shouldn't have been held in a chuck anyway. My observation is that the marks made by the jaws are barely visible. Also there is no way that the serrations could push the tenon shoulder away from the top of the jaws unless the tenon could stretch. I have wished for a board stretcher sometimes after cutting a board short, but I do not think that such a thing exists. There is no rational explanation for say that that a tenon would tend to move away from (or towards) the jaws. Same thing applies to dovetail jaws (the friction is too great and the dovetail angle is too shallow).
    I have used short tenons on occasion (such as when using store bought wood), but I usually a make a nice tenon that is 5/16 to 7/16 inches long.

    One of the things that I like about Oneway chucks is that the angle of the screw heads and the countersink angles are slightly different so that they tightly friction lock. That is why there is a snap sound when removing the screws. Some folks have taken that to mistakenly assume that there is a defect causing the screws to seize. Additionally, Oneway uses copper filled grease to lube the threads. This enables tightening more than a dry thread would permit using the same torque.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  34. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    A little more info

    First off, I found some information I didn't have before, the piece was too big and heavy for this lathe. Even as well dried as it was it was considerably thicker than they recommend and out of balance when I first started turning. Compounding this my old work bench was screwed together without glue twenty years ago and getting a bit wobbly. I have loosened the joints and added glue now but that had to add a little to the whip once the piece started moving. A new work bench is pretty high on my list of priorities. I have several in my shop but I think I am going to build a stand to support this lathe with good access, and add 300-400 pounds of concrete block ballast.

    The tenon broke off and is beside me as I type. It was totally wood failure. Next time I won't tackle as large a piece and I will take many more steps to reinforce even slightly questionable wood. I was ignorant of some characteristics of this local cedar that makes it even worse than some to try to turn, especially after sitting drying for years. Pretty much a laundry list of all the things you can do wrong, I did, and finding a few more each day!

    One issue is this lathe resembles the cast iron Jets and mustard lathes in the midsize and it doesn't seem to have near the strength and guts from what I read and see. Firmly mounting to a rigid bench would no doubt make it better, but I am coming to a better understanding of it's limitations. Coming from a metal lathe background I thought it was a little stouter.

    I did tighten the chuck quite firmly but since the marks in the cedar are comparatively shallow that doesn't seem to have been a factor. The depth of the tenon was about 7/16", pretty much as deep as I could make it and still see that it wasn't bottomed out which I knew was bad.

    With hindsight, this wood was something an experienced turner would have approached with caution. They wouldn't have put this big of a piece on this lathe, and they would have taken steps to reinforce both the tenon and overall piece if they did elect to turn this wood. Of course they would have shut down and found the wobble or threw away the piece when they didn't too. I did put a good bit of force on the piece looking for movement between it and the chuck with the lathe off just a few minutes before it broke so the crack was only apparent in the piece at turning speed then.

    My jaws are the new design wave profiled jaws, it is a brand new Talon. It grips with wave shaped ridges in eight places around the tenon. Looking at the tenon again this morning, the tooth marks in the tenon are still very sharp and clean, the tenon did not move in the jaws before parting and the noses of the jaws were firmly against a shoulder.

    My major issues were that I overloaded the lathe with an out of balance unsafe piece. I also had catches that a better turner wouldn't have had sending shocks through the piece. I suspect that someone with their ducks in a row could have turned this piece without problems but probably would have known better than to try.

    A bunch of rookie mistakes. Fortunately I am used to turning metal on lathes and occasionally out of balance stuff so I mostly maintained good positions turning the piece. I am also being cautious positioning the tool rest so a piece can't get a good start in my direction whenever possible.

    Thanks for your contribution to this thread. I'm learning from every post!



    Much of my reply above answers yours also but to recap the list: Cedar splits easily: I knew this in theory. However I have no experience to understand what this really means in terms of what stresses and strains one wood can take and another can't. "Easily" can be as hard to define as snug if you don't have further reference points. No sugar coating it, I didn't.

    The tenon and chucking questions I am going to lump together. These new design wave jaws fit a wide range of tenon sizes equally well and equally poorly. Unlike most jaws there is not an optimum diameter that offers significantly more contact than others. The tenon was 2-3/4" diameter. If I had it to do over after seeing the jaw prints this chuck leaves behind I would have made it bigger although I don't think that would have prevented this trainwreck, just better practice with these jaws. I don't want them almost fully extended fearing scroll thread failure but three to three and a quarter tenons will be gripped with pretty much the same strength as a smaller size in these wave jaws, maybe even more. I haven't really delved into the theoretical best size tenon for these wave jaws but at a quick guess it might well be bigger than the biggest opening they extend to.

    I clearly overtightened the jaws if dealing with most wood. This wood was so hard that the jaws show little penetration nor does it appear that the crack could have started where a jaw bit in. A mistake, but probably not a factor here.

    The tenon was too deep in the jaws according to Stuart Batty. To be honest, this doesn't jib with anrything I know about chucking from working with other materials, as long as the piece doesn't bottom out and the nose of the jaws rest solidly against the main body of the piece I'm just going to keep an open mind about this one until I learn why he said that. Not disagreeing or agreeing, I don't have enough info to understand why he made that statement.

    The wobble: No getting around it, a dumb move ignoring it when I couldn't locate it. That is even something that I know better than from turning other things. This was flat a stupid mistake that I should have known better than. More than the "fools rush in" other errors I made this one galls me. I don't make many stupid mistakes that I know better than doing. I can't even plead ignorance here, carelessness, recklessness, thoughtlessness, none of the things I would like to admit to. I knew better and didn't think at that time.

    A little information you might verify and give a try if you agree. Threads never make full contact in a threaded hole, varies with the hole and the fastener but you probably have 15% or more noncontact in those jaw screws. Putting the light duty blue Loctite, the original I believe, fills that void and usually prevents screws from loosening under shock and vibration. Because it also prevents corrosion and galling, it is often easier to loosen threads that have been together for a long time that were put together with Loctite than those with nothing. There are about a dozen Loctite thread compounds now, years ago when working in R&D I knew them all. I have slept a bunch of times since then though so I don't remember which is which. Put the wrong one on the threads and it takes a lot more heat than anyone wants to use on a chuck to free the threads. I think there is even a lighter duty one than the one I recommend too, little more than joint compound but that still gives more consistent tightening and prevents galling and corrosion in the threads.

    The jaw screws were tight when this happened, I checked them three or four times during my early usage of the chuck and after this event too. I always suspect movement in new equipment.

    Thank you for your contribution too! I do value every post and every one adds to my knowledge. I have to find out about that tenon depth deal now. It will bug me until I know why he says a short one is better than a long one.

    Hu
     
  35. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Hu, maybe somebody in your turning club is familiar with balancing a piece of wood that is only in rough chainsaw form. It is much harder to describe in words than to show visually. Basically, the intent is to statically balance the wood between centers and then do some rough shaping like knocking off some of the corners and making a tenon on one end.

    Start by putting a point center in both the headstock and tailstock. I use a live center in the tailstock and a dead center in the headstock, but anything where only a point at each end is contacting the wood will work. Tighten the tailstock just enough to hold the piece between centers. If necessary use a spring punch to make a dimple in hard wood. The wood will rotate so that the heavy side is down. Mark the lowest point with a pencil and then shift one of the ends upwards a bit and recheck the balance. After several iterations, the wood should be balanced so that it does not have a heavy side. That is the desired balanced position. Mark the two centers -- remove the wood and use a spur drive and a wooden mallet to set the spurs. Remount the piece using the spur drive and live center and start the lathe at the slowest speed to verify that the wood is properly balanced. If everything is OK, knock off the high spots with a bowl gouge and very very light cuts. When you are cutting mostly air, it is easy to poke the tool into a gap and knock the wood off the lathe. Next, turn a tenon or recess on one end. It is generally easier to do this at the tailstock end. I generally continue removing wood until I have something a bit larger than the outside shape of the turning before removing the piece and mounting it on a chuck. I keep the tailstock live center in contact until I am almost finished turning the piece.
     
  36. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    Thanks again Bill!


    Bill,

    The turning club seems to be mostly members who have already reached a nice skill level. While plenty courteous they weren't welcoming to a newcomer. I have worked my way into a handful of cliques over the years but doing the math the twenty-five dollar membership isn't bad, the over two hundred dollars a year motor full bill to go to the meetings leaves things very debatable. Looks like they come, watch a demo, buy a few supplies that the club or somebody buys in volume, and boogie. I would rather watch a video that I can replay than a demo that I have difficulty hearing and seeing.

    The help I get here and in other forums, net video, and dvds looks like what I will have to work with. Fortunately I think that will be enough. I am very familiar with balancing things in general, your words were more than adequate to tell me the particulars of balancing on the lathe. I was going to try to static balance the wood by hanging it from a cord to get closer since the lathe is too tight to turn to give an idea of balance. Putting it between centers as you recommend is far better. I only have one live center and a drive center at the moment but that can be dealt with. Just realized as I type, the chuck screw for mounting wood will work just fine as a center without a hole drilled for it to fit into. Not perfect but plenty good enough!

    The talent and experience of the people responding to this thread in the newbie section was unexpected. The patience too. You and the others have immensely shortened my "hard knocks" learning curve already. Not that I don't still have tons to learn but this one thread has improved my procedures in at least a half-dozen areas without taking time to count. I an genuinely a bit overwhelmed about the amount of help so freely given.

    Hu
     
  37. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Longer tenon weaker: I think, not positive here, that the theory is the joint where the tenon and bowl meet, which sits on the jaws is kind of a hinge. Tool pressure pushes one way, and the chuck resists the other way. Especially, if the tenon does not exactly match the angle of the jaws, it can rock. If it starts to rock, then it can split. If you have a shorter tenon, then this is a bit less of a problem.

    Softer woods, like fir, cedar and pine don't have the structural strength to hold up to abuse. You have to be more gentle with them. One other point is lining the jaws up with the grain. If you have 2 jaws on the end grain, and 2 on the side grain, the side grain ones will loosen up. End grain compresses very little, and side grain compresses a lot. This is even more so with green wood. If you rotate the piece 45 degrees, so the open space between the jaws line up with the end grain, you get more even compression. Metal will get almost no measurable compression, so a longer grip will stabilize some pieces.

    Hard woods like oak, locust, or osage tend to be brittle, and more prone to splitting if you have a catch.

    Medium woods like the fruit woods and soft maples are much more forgiving.

    Not sure about the serrated Oneway jaws. I use the dove tail jaws exclusively. Main reason is that is is an adjustable locking wedge joint. The wedge gives a mechanical advantage. This is more secure, especially when the angles are very close. I prefer a recess to a tenon. There is debate about which holds better, and as near as I can tell, they both hold fine if they are made correctly:angles match, diameters are close, and they are the proper size. Tenon about 1/4 the diameter. Recess, Well, I use 2 5/8 inches on bowls up to about 16 inch diameter, and it works great for heavy roughing and coring.

    robo hippy
     
  38. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I was a beginner about nine years ago when I joined a turning club so now I have viewed the issue of mentoring from both sides and will offer my thoughts. We are a fairly large club with around 130 members. We get several new members every month as well as some visitors who are just curious about turning and each person comes with their own expectations. When I first joined, I was really impressed by all of the talent. Jean-François Escoulen was the demonstrator, someone had turned a hat, etc. However, there was no stampede of folks wanting to mentor me. There was so much going on, it was hard to cram everything into the allotted time frame at the community center. However, during all of the announcements, newbies were encouraged to collar an officer or any member and talk about what they are interested in learning. Visitors and new members were also introduced during the announcements at the beginning of the meeting and encouraged to tell something about their turning interests. Somebody spoke to me and mentioned the various opportunities for learning. Maybe that was not the best way to approach outreach, but finding the exact right approach is not a one-size-fits-all I was soon to discover.

    Some visitors are hesitant to ask for mentoring because they may feel like they are imposing on other people's personal time and to a very large degree, it works the other way too. After a few meetings, it finally registered with me that there was an almost monthly get-together at the shop of one of the professional turners in the club (the founder) and they almost pleaded with newbies like me to take advantage of that opportunity for learning. For some unknown reason, I put off doing that for several months. I suppose that they could have sent a band of turners to to drag me there, but that might be viewed as a bit too aggressive by timid folks.

    After about a half year, I arrived at a heretofore undiscovered notion -- that the way to get the most benefit out of being a member was to become more involved. Instead of being a spectator, I might actually do some actual real honest-to-goodness work (sorry about the "w" word). The newsletter editor wanted to pass the mantle off to someone else and for some reason I raised my hand -- or maybe somebody else raised my hand -- it's all a blur so I don't remember for certain. I looked around he room in panic and there were no other hands in the air. A vote was taken on the spot and I was off to the races. The difference between being a participant and a spectator was monumental because it put the onus on me rather than expecting to be catered to like royalty.

    I learned that the board had been wrestling with ways to improve outreach and the biggest obstacle from the other side of the fence was attracting/luring/coercing folks to come to mentoring sessions. A lot of people get spooked when collared one-on-one -- I know because I have been on both sides of that dilemma. The board found that there were various reasons for beginners being hesitant to participate in mentoring and perhaps the most common reason was that they felt that they needed to first improve their skills or else mentoring would not "take".

    As a new turner, I offered my views which seemed to be well received by the other graybeard board members. A new program was eventually developed to have periodic (four to six times per year) mentoring sessions on about six or seven topics at various member's shops. This was in addition to other turning mentoring activities that were already being done. Even with all of this, we found that many beginners did not take advantage of what was being offered. So, the bottom line is that this is a tough nut to crack, but it works best when both newbie and "expert" put an effort into making things happen. A turning club is just a bunch of guys like you and me who take the initiative to accomplish goals. It can be a formidable task if only a few people are the "workers" and the rest are watchers. Some folks volunteer from day one and others never do. I think that I know which people derive the greatest benefit.

    I think that I am fortunate to have found such a good club. It is unrealistic to expect all clubs to have the same degree of involvement. Some clubs offer more opportunities than ours does and some less. I think that sometimes smaller clubs have some advantages such as closer interaction with beginners and some limitations in what they can accomplish because of less financial resources to bring in big name turners. I think tat our club has been reasonably successful in fulfilling the wants and needs of our members.
     
  39. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    OK, I won't disagree until I hear the reason. :D
     
  40. Hu Lowery

    Hu Lowery

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    tenons and clubs

    Deleted the old title then couldn't think what I wanted to put for a new one. Tenons and clubs kind of go together, just not this kind of club!

    Bill,

    Good clubs are great and belonging to a good one makes you think highly of them. This club is probably a good enough club, just a poor fit for me and what I was hoping to find in a club. Out of fifty people more or less, not one said hello or introduced themselves including the club officials. They didn't even talk to each other for the most part when the meeting ended. Looked like folks that were all strangers and had been ordered to a meeting by the court!

    The demo was about finials and I have a thousand dollars or so worth of wood that would make great finials sitting in my barn, exotics and lots of straight grain hard maple that cue shafts are made out of. Anyone offering help would have got some nice gifts. Had someone even seemed friendly or outgoing in the slightest I would have requested them take a quick look at my tools and chuck that I had with me. Any offer of additional help would have resulted in goodies from me, only fair. Getting thoroughly ignored by all wasn't all bad though, my membership dues stayed in my pocket! I may join this club somewhere down the line but it won't be for aid getting started.


    Thanks! Another thing to remember, grain orientation when chucking. Because these jaws grab in eight place around the wood I haven't considered it. The marks seem evenly deep so it might be a nonissue anyway but certainly worth a thought. I'll try to make that a habit when chucking.

    The new chucks normally come with the #2 wave jaws. I'm pretty sure I could have gotten the #2 tapered jaws for the same dollars. I saw pluses and minuses to both so just let them send the most common.

    Talking tenon length and any movement between the piece and the chuck jaws those talking taper jaws and those talking the ribbed jaws are talking apples and oranges. Any movement at all in the ribbed jaws is likely to be a trainwreck soon. The tapered jaws do have the stronger hold against the piece coming totally free. The ribbed jaws might have an edge in primary grip strength but once something starts to move it is pretty much gone. The tapered jaws will let something move without flying free, particularly if the tenon is the optimum size for maximum contact. A tenon or recess could be stronger depending on the piece. I agree either one is plenty adequate in solid wood.

    I almost instinctively don't want the sharp corner at the base of a tenon for either chuck but most particularly the taper. Sharp inside corners are stress points and to be avoided whenever possible.

    I'm pressing the piece directly into the jaws with one hand and tightening with the other hand but I think I'll start applying more even pressure with the tailstock.

    First bowl is finally on the shelf. Not much to recommend it except it will hold water, maybe. Next bowl is back to holding sideways. Maybe a natural rim? That cherry bark is on there tight right now, seems a natural. I can't seem to get away from tight and deep bowls, thinking I might turn a shallow wide one just for a change. No idea what I like to turn yet.

    Hu

    Bill, a quick note here: I am big on volunteering. Anytime somebody was out from work a day or missed a meeting when a volunteer was needed; "Bill was telling me just the other day that he wanted to do that." Attendence on the job and in meetings picked up considerably and I didn't dare miss one myself. There were a lot of people with payback on their minds!
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013

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