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Strength of the CA on a Natural edge

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Emiliano Achaval, Nov 3, 2019.

  1. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    Did you ever wonder how strong is the bond on a NE bowl where you use CA to hold the bark? I went to the gallery where I sell my work yesterday. I had several pieces with me. I was in the process of adding the prices when I knocked off a MIlo NE to the floor. Instantly some pieces of bark flew. I brought it back home to take all the bark off and smooth it. Some pieces came off super easy. Other parts were nearly impossible to take the bark off. On my next NE, I will add some extra CA!
     
  2. musky

    musky

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    I do alot of Cherry burl natural edge pieces and use quite a bit of CA on the bark, in fact I will really flood the bark with it. I am very carefull around the edge of the bark, where it meets the main wood, to not get sloppy and let the glue run over the main wood. This is more of a problem with woods such as Maple and the like, than Cherry. I will even keep adding CA as I turn down to final thickness. Another benifit of flooding with CA is that it helps somewhat, in getting an even sanding of the final form, as it is really sloppy to have your bark unevenly sanded in some in spots, than the wood around it. I no longer take natural edge pieces to my turning club's show & tells, as even begining turners are not respectfull or knowledgeable enough in handling natural edge turnings by picking them up at the bark edge, and have ruined two of the first two pieces I showed. While CA will help hold the bark, it's not the cure all. It will still pop off very easily, and thinking about it, I think the main benifit for me is not so much for the strength of holding the bark on, but for the final sanding.
     
    Emiliano Achaval likes this.
  3. Fred Belknap

    Fred Belknap

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    I do a lot of bark NE bowls and sometimes I have trouble with the bark coming loose. I find if I cut my own trees and work them up I have pretty good luck with the bark, like in the 90% range. If I get trees from someone else I have no idea about how long they have been laying on the ground and my success rate drops dramatically. I do mostly black walnut and cherry. I use the super thin CA from Starbond. I don't make my bowls superthin but try to leave them around 3/8" where the bark is attached. I find that sometimes the bark will come loose in the drying stage most of the time only partially. I use black epoxy to repair and it usually holds. If I accidentally knock a small chunk off I glue it back on with medium CA. The best is to use wood that hasn't laid on the ground or been exposed to a lot of hot sun.
     
  4. Don Wattenhofer

    Don Wattenhofer

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    I don't use any CA on bark edge bowls any more since I do not think it is worth the trouble.
    My preferred method is to cut the wood myself during the fall and winter when the tree is dormant and the sap is not running then rough turn or finish turn thin when it is still sloppy green (that is you have to clean your face shield often). The bark under these circumstances is bonded to the wood much better than CA could ever accomplish in my opinion.
    The white oak bowl below is from a tree cut and turned last winter that measures about 3/16" wall thickness and the bark is strongly bonded except for one piece of outer bark that appears to be broken off.
    The goblet form below was turned green to about 1/32" wall thickness from a small black cherry tree about 4" diameter. The bark on the black cherry appears to shrink less then the wood so you often get a ripple effect on the bark edge.
    9080Bowl.JPG

    101_1407.JPG
     
  5. charlie knighton

    charlie knighton

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    David E. takes all the bark off.....he has his reasons.....next time u attend a rotation of his bring subject up.....
     
  6. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    Lucky I live in Hawaii, we do not have winter here, the trees are always green. I do notice that some trees their bark is on better and or tighter than others, I wonder if even though we do not have winter so to speak, that trees follow some sort of season? That's some beautiful work you posted!
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  7. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    When you say drying stages, you mean you double turn the NE? The NE are the only bowls I finish them the same day I start them. Nobody notices an out of round NE rim. Like Lyle Jamieson does, I let them dry for a few hours to do the final sanding. They are some of my best sellers at the gallery where I sell my work.
     
  8. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    My friend the late Joe Looper also thought that trees cut in the winter were much more likely to hold the bark. Many years after his passing his wife gave me a bunch of his roughed out natural edge pieces to finish them for her kids. These were 10 years old and the bark was a solid as could be. Most were Ambrosia maple or Walnut. Me personally, well I just remove the bark and add my own using sponge painting techniques although I may have just come up with a new process that is more exciting. Stay tuned.
     

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  9. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    We do have a short winter here. Last year the maple leaves turned color the end of December, fell in early January, and budded out the end of January. Last year just a few light frosts nothing severe enough to slow the tomato plants.
    The dormant period here is too short to be useful. Many species hold the bark well.

    I remove the bark from most of my NE bowls so that they can be used. Removing the bark is a lot more work than just putting CA on to keep it.

    You are going for round and your bowls look great. On NE bowls I go for the oval look and letting the wood help me as it dries.
    somI do NE Bowls I one turning and let the wood movement accentuate the ovalness.

    I do keep the bark ina few bowls and use The thin CA applied to the bark. This is essential to keep the bark from shrinking and well as holding it on.

    I do all the sanding off the lathe after the bowl has dried 2-3 days after turning.
    With CA applied the bark will dry thicker than wood making it easy to sand it level with the wood.

    Without CA the bark shrinks more than the wood making it impossible to sand the wood even with the bark and have the bowl look good.
     
  10. Don Wattenhofer

    Don Wattenhofer

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    Does the wood have annual growth rings? Is there a time of year that is dryer then others? I believe that in prior threads you have mentioned a state forestry so maybe you could reach out to them to understand if there is a yearly season for the trees, it would be interesting if you could find out and post on this thread.
     
  11. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    I will look into it. I should know it right? Lol. Aloha
     
  12. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    Wood does grow a ring of summer and winter wood every year. If I remember correctly the Cambium layer is what brings the nutruients up the tree. During the winter the sap runs down which is why the winter ring is thin and hard because there is little growth going on. I am a long way from a tree expert and it's been a very long time since I've done any of that research so correct me if I'm wrong. I do know that once the wood is down bugs get into the cambium layer first and will cause the bark to separate very easily.
     
  13. musky

    musky

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    If you are the one cutting the tree down, and don't have the luxury of doing it in the middle of the winter, where it is cold, it is still possible to somewhat mimick the effects of a cold winter cutting. When you drop the tree, just let it sit foe a month, to two months. By not cutting the branches with the leaves on them off right away, they will continue to pull moisture out of the tree till they shrivel up. Not a cure all, but a substancial amount of moisture will be pulled from the tree, and bugs shouldn't be a problem in that 1-2 months time.
     
  14. Don Wattenhofer

    Don Wattenhofer

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    I have cut trees successfully in September thru February the ideal is shortly before the snow flies so I can keep them frozen until I can get to them. I bet that Emiliano is jealous.
     
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  15. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    LOL, that's funny. There is a reason why I chose Hawaii, I'd rather be hot and sweaty than frozen. In my hunting adventures around the world, I have seen and suffer my share of bitterly cold weather. I put in a call to a friend of mine, an arborist. He's on Lanai this week, he will call me when he gets back. Aloha
     
  16. Fred Belknap

    Fred Belknap

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    I do a lot of black walnut and the bark shrinks more than the wood. I have used CA on green bark but it still shrinks. That is one reason I do the secone turning.
     
  17. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Black walnut bark is a challenge. I have often had the bark slide off a half round log while I was prepping a blank and once off a round log section I had standing in end before cutting it lengthwise.

    Fortunately the sap ring is a dramatic element with it without the bark.
     
  18. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I try to keep the bark on natural edge mesquite. Some mesquite has thin bark and some has thick bark. If cut in the fall or winter the bark is usually tight, but in the spring the bark is really slippery. I hate NE mesquite without bark so I take all measures to keep it intact.

    I use super thin Star Bond CA along the cambium layer. Sometimes I will also apply CA to the bark, but not enough to saturate it. This will give me a nice crisp and clean bark edge.
     
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  19. Dave Hulett

    Dave Hulett

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    Emilano, I saturate the bark with thin CA and have never had a problem. but then I haven't had one get knocked to the ground either. I do that when I get to about an inch of thickness, saturating form both the inside and outside.
     
  20. Don Wattenhofer

    Don Wattenhofer

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    Hey when it is 40 below you can still put enough layers on to stay warm but when it is to warm there is just so much you can take off.
     
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