• Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details)
  • Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Paul May for "Checkerboard (ver 3.0)" being selected as Turning of the Week for March 25, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Shellac flakes?

Joined
Apr 25, 2020
Messages
148
Likes
64
Location
Portland, OR
I've lost too much product from premixed shellac + DNA and want to move to mixing my own from flakes. I notice there are "colors" of shellac amber, orange, blonde, etc... Is it safe to assume that will effect my sealer color?

I know I need to get dewaxed flakes. Anything else beyond that before ordering?
 

Roger Wiegand

Beta Tester
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
789
Likes
914
Location
Wayland, MA
Website
www.carouselorgan.com
I prefer the non-dewaxed when using it as the final finish. I think it works better when French polishing. You will pay a lot more for lighter and lighter colors. Depending on your supplier some of the less refined shellac may contain bug parts-- you want to filter it. (you want to filter it in any event) Yes, the shellac will impart color to the wood, though not as much as you might think looking at it dissolved in the jar. Always make test pieces.

To get it dissolved in non-geologic time get a cheap blade-type coffee grinder and pulverize the flakes (just what you are going to use) before you make up the shellac. That way it will dissolve in hours rather than days.

I pay the big bucks for the Behlen/Mohawk reducer. It works well and consistently; one is never quite sure what's in the gallon cans of DNA from the Borg (it changes over time). Good shellac is expensive, treat it well with a good solvent. Use the cheap DNA for cleanup. I find the lifetime of shellac made with the proprietary solvent is longer, mine frequently is still good after 2-3 years.
 
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
346
Likes
209
Location
Bashaw, Alberta
From what I've read you only "need" dewaxed shellac flakes if you plan to use it as a wash coat or sealer before using another final finish. Some finishes will have problems apparently adhering to the regular shellac.
 

Roger Wiegand

Beta Tester
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
789
Likes
914
Location
Wayland, MA
Website
www.carouselorgan.com
I've wondered about the necessity of using dewaxed as a sealer coat-- I used regular shellac for that purpose for decades without ever seeing a problem. It must be a problem with only some kinds of finishes, the oil-based varnishes I've used seem quite compatible.
 
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
51
Likes
90
Location
Hamilton, New Zealand
I only ever bought one can of premixed shellac and vowed to never buy it again after learning about the short shelf life and no manufacture dates on the can I started buying the flakes and dissolving my own I can only get orange shellac flakes at the hardware store while it does impart some colour to me it is not overpowering, I also like the fact I can mix small amounts This applewood burl hollowform was finished with home made shine juice with orange shellac and I used a shellac based sanding sealer while finish sanding before using the shine juice.
 

Attachments

  • 20200904_171224[1].jpg
    20200904_171224[1].jpg
    161.4 KB · Views: 18
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
227
Likes
156
Location
Midland, MI
I pay the big bucks for the Behlen/Mohawk reducer. It works well and consistently;

Thanks for the tip on this product. I like the fact that it does not contain methanol. The SDS says it's 75+% ethanol, up to 10% each of butanol and isopropyl alcohol. It should be somewhat less toxic than the denatured alcohol containing 50% methanol that's sold at the big box stores.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2018
Messages
261
Likes
312
Location
Cameron, Illinois
If you are looking for alternatives to big box store methanol mixes, go to your liquor store. EverClear (grain alcohol)is going to be as non toxic as anything you can use. May not be available in all states, and may not price out favorably in some areas, but it has been used for years for shellac, especially since they started using so much methanol in the DNA.
 
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
227
Likes
156
Location
Midland, MI
If you are looking for alternatives to big box store methanol mixes, go to your liquor store. EverClear (grain alcohol)is going to be as non toxic as anything you can use.

Good idea, but it would mean a road trip for me. Michigan law caps liquor at 151 proof max, (25% water) which is probably too wet for shellac.

I still have some denatured alcohol with the old fashioned formulation, i.e. greater than 95% ethanol according to the manufacturers SDS when I bought it. I suppose by now it's picked up a fair amount of water too, but it still works well. Just looking for what to use next when that can is dry.
 
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
5
Likes
0
Location
Beaumont, CA
I have recently been using Isopropyl alcohol to dissolve my shellac. I found some 99% at the local home center. I have a tough time getting DNA here in Southern California. The Iso evaporates a bit quicker than denatured, making the finish harden up a lot faster. So far, I like it.

I have read that you need a minimum of 80% iso to work correctly with shellac. The water in lower percentage alcohols makes it gummy and not really cure correctly.


To answer the OP's original question, yes the different colors will effect the color of the sealer, finish, etc. Dewaxed is a safer bet for sealer, but just like @Roger Wiegand, I used regular shellac for years (still do a lot of the time, to be honest).

In all honesty I use canned shellac a lot of the time as well. Thin it with some additional alcohol and it dries faster and cures harder. It's ready to go. I don't have to wait (if I forgot to mix some up). It can also be more cost effective (although, prices have been going up the last few years on all finishes and stuff).
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
2,030
Likes
1,119
Location
Peoria, Illinois
Flakes do not have an infinite shelf life. They will degrade and absorb some moisture. Depending on storing conditions, I've read between 2 and 3 years.
 
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
346
Likes
209
Location
Bashaw, Alberta
Finishing guy I was listening to on Fine woodworking podcast today said flakes ed will last basically forever if they're kept sealed and out of sunlight.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
2,030
Likes
1,119
Location
Peoria, Illinois
Finishing guy I was listening to on Fine woodworking podcast today said flakes ed will last basically forever if they're kept sealed and out of sunlight.
His shop is different than my basement shop in Peoria, IL then. I threw away 3 original screw lid plastic containers of Behlen shellac flakes that had become one big mass after about 6 years. I tried dissolving them and after days in DNA, they were still one big glob. They had never left my basement, and I can attest to there being almost zero natural light down there. I used the 2-3 years based on other reports from a Google search to be safe. https://www.shellac.net/faq.html How should I store the dry shellac flakes? Kept in a cool, dry, dark place, the shelf life in my shop is 3+ years. Your mileage may vary. Never leave your shellac in a closed car. It will melt into a brick. Of course the good news is you can always smash the brick and then melt it down. https://www.shellacfinishes.com/ufaqs/what-is-the-shelf-life-of-shellac/ Shellac flakes have a finite shelf life unknown to most users. Even if Shellac flakes are stored in a cool, dark and dry place, but older than 2 years (thumb rule), it will not dissolve completely in alcohol overnight when compared to fresh stock.
 
Last edited:

Roger Wiegand

Beta Tester
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
789
Likes
914
Location
Wayland, MA
Website
www.carouselorgan.com
I recently unearthed a ~30 year old jar of Behlen shellac flakes (stored dry, in the dark, they were still loose flakes). I tried hard to get them dissolved, pulverizing them first, soaking in solvent for days, finally running the rubbery globs through a strainer and trying heat to get them to dissolve. (After it became clear they weren't going to dissolve readily I just wanted to get them in solution so I could use them to make "burnt shellac", a rather remarkable adhesive used to make reversible airtight wood/metal seals in player piano work). After two weeks of effort I gave up and dumped the mess.

I have to assume that there is some level of polymerization that proceeds over time that eventually renders the shellac unusable. This stuff was OK ~15 years ago, the last time I remember using it, before it got lost in the move. I was surprised because I'd always thought the shelf life of dry shellac was indefinite. This was orange shellac, a second bottle of "super blonde" of similar age went into solution as usual and behaved perfectly; so perhaps the level of impurities affects the shelf life.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Messages
1,948
Likes
996
Location
La Grange, IL
According to an article by Jeff Jewitt that I just read all shellac, whether mixed or flakes has a shelf life. Refrigeration extends the shelf life.

Mixed up the shelf life is supposed to be 6-12 months for blonde/super blonde dewaxed, and 1-2 years for an unopened bag of flakes.

Waxy shellac can last 1-2 years mixed and 5 or more years as unopened flakes.

This wouldn't have predicted Roger's experience, but confirms at least that flakes don't last forever.

The article could have been better. He explains that mixed shellac degrades over time as there is a slow chemical reaction (esterification) between the alcohol and the shellac. He also explains that shellac in any form does not react with oxygen, but doesn't then explain why flakes degrade with time or why dewaxing hastens the process.
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Messages
189
Likes
52
Location
Bloomfield, New Jersey
I have recently been using Isopropyl alcohol to dissolve my shellac. I found some 99% at the local home center. I have a tough time getting DNA here in Southern California. The Iso evaporates a bit quicker than denatured, making the finish harden up a lot faster. So far, I like it.

PSA: Amazon is once more selling isopropyl alcohol to anyone.
 
Back
Top