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Seepage from oil based finishes.......?

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by odie, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. odie

    odie

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    Took this quote from the other thread, and am soliciting comments on this.

    I've been using Watco Danish oil natural finish since very early in my lathe experience back in the 1980's. To this date I have never experienced an example of "never dries problem". If cwearing can respond, that would be great, but anyone who has experienced this, let me know your findings, if you would please.

    There have been times when I have experienced this with Danish oil, and it has seeped to the surface over a period of a few days, but never longer than that. I've had some of my bowls for years, and have never noticed this problem. Is it possible this problem could exist with over-application, or repeated saturation of the wood with the Danish oil?

    My procedure is to apply the Danish oil to completely cover the surface, and to wipe dry with a cloth or paper towel within a few minutes of the application. My intent is to preserve the natural coloring of the wood as much as possible by using this method of a light application. I almost never apply a second coat. As I said, sometimes a little seepage does occur within a day or two, and it's easily taken care of by wiping again with the cloth or paper towel, or it simply buffs out. My bowls usually set in the shop for at least a week before I will Beale buff.......

    ko
     
  2. Gretch Flo

    Gretch Flo

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    Odie-slightly off the subject-
    Does anyone know the difference in results using Deft danish oil Finish (that has urethane and tong oil as I recall), and Watco danish oil?????
    I used to use General Finish oils and ran into problems with tackiness and Klingspor's worked with me with using dryers but I was unsuccessful so switched switched to Deft Danish oil finish. I use 2-3 coats after shellac sanding sealer to help with evening up the absorption of the DDO
    The subject of finishing is mind boggling as alot of the labels don't say (proprietary). I guess I don't want a scientific explanation, just results!!!,. I am still looking for a quicker solution for the "Perfect finish" oil finish. I do alot of steel wooling (or synthetic stuff) between coats, trying to build up a durable finish to washing, without a high shine. I like a "sheen", not real "shiney" to mimic a natural patina. Gretch
     
  3. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    If you want to know about the solvents, the MSDS has that, but they don't say much about the other ingredients because of trade secrets. I assume that you are using the Natural finish (no stain or dye).

    When I did flat woodworking I had all of the various colored Watco stain/dyes and mixed them as required because they were great for matching existing trim and cabinet woodwork. They are a mixture of pigment stain and dye, but mostly dye so it was great for mixing up colors without muddying the wood figure. The main ingredient in all of these finishes was mineral spirits, followed by linseed oil and other oils and varnish. The oils in Watco Danish oil finish are a mixture of drying and semi-drying. For maximum durability or outdoor use, they recommend using a varnish topcoat. I found a bit more information in the books by Flexner, Jewett, and Dresdner.
     
  4. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I often use Waterlox as a finish. It takes 4-5 coats to build up a sheen with the 0000 cutting it back in between coats.
    I have found a shortcut for bowls.

    One coat of waterlox then 1 coat of Odies oil. The Odie's oil is rubbed on and rubbed in for a few minutes a day after the waterlox.
    The piece is allowed to sit for several hours then I rub off and buff with a cloth.

    Both odies oil and waterlox will gell if exposed to air. bloxegen will prolong their lives considerably.

    Al
     
  5. Ron Solfest

    Ron Solfest

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    This is a good thread for me right now as I'm trying to hone in on a better finishing technique. All I want is something that is easy to apply, highlights the grain, and then has excellent water and wear characteristics...and obviously foodsafe; all in a short amount of time - is that too much to ask?

    Flexner's book (Understanding Wood Finishing, 1994) does an excellent job describing finishes, I recommend it. Watco and Deft Danish are both Oil/Varnish mixes, Waterlox is a wiping varnish (or basically a thinned varnish). His book describes each well and gives details on how to best apply them as well as issues, and ways to formulate your own.

    Flexner has a couple pages on the original question here of bleeding oil finishes. I've had this experience with Watco on open grain wood (oak) some. Generally I just need to follow-up wipe the surface every hour or so for a few hours to eliminate it. If you let it cure it can be a tougher mess. The worst experience I had was recently using an old Watco can I had (~15yrs?), this seemed to never cure and I kicked myself for using it. I was able to salvage the turnings by baking them at ~175deg in an oven for a couple hours (wiping mid-stream) and then finally scrubbing the remaining cured blotches off with a white 3M pad and mineral spirits - NOT recommended. I ended up overcoating with a final coat of wiping varnish.

    With all that said, I'm still looking for the best finish. My current finishes include:
    - General Finishes WTF: Water based, wipes on easy and dries in ~5mins. Requires 5-6 coats, fast drying time can make difficult to nicely cover entire bowl. Water based so first need to raise grain and sand off. Surface film that can look great on some surfaces (previously oiled walnut) or not so great on others (directly on mesquite w/o previously bringing grain out with oil). Seems to wear like iron. Not cheap. Foodsafe in ~1wk
    - Watco: Old standard that I apply similar to Odie; soak and let sit for 15min, soak again and in another 15min wipe off. Looks great and provides pretty good protection. Although ready to handle in a day, it's not foodsafe for a ~month.
    - Wiping varnish: Mix ureathane 50/50 with mineral spirits. Cheap, applies and looks ~similar to Watco depending on wood but faster (5-10min soak, usually don't resoak, and then ready to handle in few hours and foodsafe in ~couple weeks). Depending on the wood I've done a couple coats of this and believe it's more durable than Watco.

    As mentioned I haven't settled on a "best" yet, and am still experimenting, I look forward to getting other opinions to help me down this path to the holy grail.
    Thanks
    Ron
     
  6. Gretch Flo

    Gretch Flo

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    Odie-do you mean the the seeping to the surface as the shiny "spots", or is this a more diffuse problem???
    I try to really wipe the oil off within 2-3 min-using regular paper towels and then finishing with viva paper towels that has no real lines or patterns that regular paper toweles have-a little more expensive. I think this minimizes the shiney spots. It they are there I use synthetic "steel wool" as soon as I see (next day) them-not waiting for the finish to really dry, as I do when I am in between coats or the last one.
    Bill- I use natural, not dyed oils.
    I think I should just open the can of Watco I have and use (got it when there was the scare a couple of years ago when they said deft was not going to be available)
    Off to the "laboratory"...... Gretch
     
  7. odie

    odie

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    Gretch......

    Yes, those little shiny spots are usually very small, and buff right out with a rag or paper towel.....and not left too long before they appear (before it hardens). I really don't spend much time worrying about it, because they are gone when buffed with the Beale buffing method. I also don't get very many of these little shiny spots, because I use the Watco sparingly these days......just enough to soak the surface and all wiped away shortly thereafter. Unless there are any missed spots, it's done in one single application. This looks very similar to what you are doing. I believe it is a "diffuse" problem. The wood can only handle so much volume of the Watco, and there is nowhere to go but back out to the surface......not a scientific evaluation, but that's my thinking on it!

    In the past, I have noticed more residual seeping going on with multiple applications of Watco. In my opinion, there is little to gain with multiple applications.....and, in this discussion, there is the possibility of over-saturation, which leads to other problems.

    I am using plain old "bargain" brands of paper towels.....whatever is cheap. Some of them have patterns printed on them. Is there any reason to use anything else?

    Sorry, no experience with the Deft Danish oil. I've been using the Watco for such a long time, and I've never felt dissatisfied with the results I've been getting. Except for some friction polish a few years ago, I haven't found the need to try everything that is available. I'm sort of like you in the appeal of the Danish oil to give a very nice sheen. It seems much more "aesthetic" than shiny can be. (purely a personal preference)

    ko
     
  8. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    The spots appear around holes or defects in the wood, well mostly. The dark spots in cherry were good for this, and if it happened on a glue line, that meant that your jointing wasn't very good. For turning, if you are using a wipe on finish, especially on burl, it can be a problem. It will be clean at night when you go into the house for the night, and come out next morning, and there are the spots. I would take an air hose to the piece while still wet and blow out all of the voids. The shiny spots do buff off fairly easy with the 0000 steel wood, or the grey abrasive pads. I used the Deft instead of the Watco because the Deft had some urethane in it, and gave better protection.

    robo hippy
     
  9. Jerry Bailey

    Jerry Bailey

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    Almost all my finishes are Oil & wax based, as stated above by Bill, Bob Flexner has several great books regarding finishes, how-to, tips, tricks, etc.

    I have found with almost all woods, except the naturally oily kind (cocobolo, lignum vitae, etc) that the oils will almost always seep for 1-2 days after finishing.
    The seepage also appears in areas as robo hippy states, (voids, defects, etc), and also mostly on the end grains of my vessels.
    From my understanding, this is due to the wood / finish drying out and acclimating to the ambient temps/atmosphere.
    I usually wait 2 days after applying my oils, then high speed buff, and start applying my waxes.
    I have never experienced and seepage after I've waited, and then applied my waxes.
     
  10. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    When wiping off waterlox or watco, I use an air compressor to blow out any grooves or natural openings in the wood then wipe again.
    This extra bit of finish tends to harden shiny and is often located where it cannot easily be cut back with abrasive,

    Al
     
  11. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Kelly, I had that problem (not drying) with Watco over 10 years ago. I really think the finish was old as I did not do a lot of finishing then (flatwork). It was on Red Oak and since then have not used Watco on oak again.I believe that I wiped it down with MS and used a fresh can of watco to go over it. I continue put several coats of Watco on to get a small build (I know it is not supposed to build) on turnings and then buff. For porous woods as oak, my fav is 100% Tung oil. With it you do not need to sand between coats and just keep adding coats.
    Bob Flexner did an article on "tung" and "danish" oil finishes for Popular Woodworking . Look it up as it is well worth the read. Gretch one of the main points of the article is that NO "tung oil finish" has any (zilch) tung oil in it.
    As we all continue to look for the easy finish I believe that none are easy . They all require more work that the inpatient among us (such as me) are happy with doing. Also I think we have to search for the best finish for each type of wood as one size does not fit all.
     
  12. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I have a can of Old Masters "100% Pure Tung Oil". It is the only Tung Oil that I know of. It was very expensive so I use it sparingly. It is also thicker than linseed oil. It does give a beautiful sheen and it does dry. One coat is all that I ever used as a second coat would only sit on the surface. As Gerald said, if a product says Tung Oil "Finish" then it means that it is a finish that gives the appearance of tung oil, but no tungs were harmed in making the product.
     
  13. odie

    odie

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    Gerald......I may find out about "shelf life" of Watco Danish oil sooner or later. I bought a gallon can about ten years ago, and so far, so good.....has always dried for me. Up until I bought this gallon, I've always bought the pints. This stuff lasts me forever, and at the rate I've been using it, I'm probably good until past 2020, or later!

    ko
     
  14. Gretch Flo

    Gretch Flo

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    Odie-viva was mentioned here so I bought a roll. It is smooth like felt. I use the cheaper stuff yo get the gross stuff off, and then use the viva wiping many times. Think there are less "finish lines" to steel wool out.
    l
    Like Robo, I chose Deft because of the urethane (as opposed to varnish in Watco) thinking it would last longer. My problem is that I give/sell my stuff and only keep the rejects and entertain very little. So can't first hand "test" my bowls/trays. The only one I use consistently is a small platter (spalted maple) made with sunken center circle for a marble disc to cut cheese or mostly a dish with dip. with a broad groove surrounding the dip for shrimp (or veggies) . Use it for a "dish to pass"-wash maybe 8-10 x per year. Made it 10 years ago and used the Gen Finish danish oil. Have put a coat of Deft oil on 2 years ago and seems to be holding up. Gretch
     
  15. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Kelly I think the Watco I had the trouble with was old when I bought it as it was at a big box and marked down a lot. So my guess was either old or discontinued from their shelves. You might come out better since yours was newer.
    Bill I think Woodcraft has a brand of Tung oil 100% . By the way I thin 50/50 with turpentine spirits. Oh and I just only use the stuff marked "no tongues were harmed in the manufacturer of this product"..........LOL
     
  16. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I sometimes use naphtha instead of mineral spirits because it evaporates faster.
     
  17. Dave Hulett

    Dave Hulett

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    Odie? it's 2020, got any left? :)
     
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  18. odie

    odie

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    Hi Dave......Nope, the gallon is gone now. I've gone back to getting it in pints for convenience of handling, fire safety and storage. Pints only last me about 2-3 months now. Since I "retired", my production rate is much higher now, plus I'm using significantly more Danish Oil lately per bowl.

    -----odie-----
     
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