1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. ATTENTION FORUM MEMBERS!

    Guest, if you have not yet updated your forum bookmark to a secure log in connection, please delete your unsecure book and add the following secure bookmark: https://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php

    You can dismiss this notice by clicking the X in the upper right of the notice box.

    Dismiss Notice

Sanding Maple

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Randy Anderson, Jun 15, 2020.

  1. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    I've sanded a few hundred bowls of all sorts of wood but nothing compares to the sugar maple I'm working through. I've never turned green maple before. My natural edge were turned green and as they dried they developed a rust colored outer layer that took me hours to work through with 80 grit sanding discs. The layer was consistent over the entire bowl. I dry my natural edge in paper bags. Once I got it all off the rest of the grits were not difficult and scratches were not tough to get out. The final 400 grit finish was great and took oil just fine.

    I just turned 3 more and am trying the LDD soaking method to see if that improves the sanding. All I've read about it says it does. Anyone have any other tips to make the initial sanding of these easier? Wears me out just sanding one. More time spent with 80 grit than the rest of the entire process.
     
  2. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    5,407
    Location (City & State):
    Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
    Randy......nice web site! :D

    The one thing that makes sanding easier, is mastering your tool skills. (tool selection, usage, and sharpening) Your post reminds me of myself at one time......my hands and elbows wore out with all the sanding. I even had to wear an elbow brace, because I couldn't take all the stress on my elbow joints, wrists and fingers from all the sanding......haven't had the need for the brace for some time now, and I probably spend 1/10th the time sanding that I used to do. o_O

    The first grit you start sanding with, is ALWAYS the most prolonged, and takes the most effort. This is because you have to deal with any imperfections left from your tool work. Once you've gotten rid of any uneven surfaces, and torn grain......then proceeding through all the finer grits is a breeze! ;)

    -----odie-----
     
    Lamar Wright and Bill Boehme like this.
  3. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    Odie, thanks for reply. Yep, I started a while back spending LOTS of time with my neg rake scraper. Best addition to my tool collection in a long time. I make a point not to stop until there are no tool marks. Easier to work a NR scraper than a sander. I think of the hours I spent when I started sanding on huge tool marks that seemed like the grand canyon. Still, not getting younger and wrists and elbows get tired. I've got both abranet and pronet discs. Can't make up my mind which to stick with. Took them out of the LDD solution today. Hoping for an easier sand.
     
    odie likes this.
  4. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    6,554
    Location (City & State):
    Lakeland, Florida
    Home Page:
    I haven’t turned much sugar maple. Lots of the soft maples.

    what I do with NE bowls coming off the lathe is
    Rinse them in the sink - this reduces the chances of mold and adds a little moisture back into endgrain
    Put it in a cardboard box close the flaps - same function as a paper bag over night
    Next day open flaps so half the top is covered.
    Next day open all flaps
    Next day start dancing the dry bowl or put it on a shelf until I can sand it.

    Kelly is right about getting a good tool finish.
    A properly used NRS can fix minor surface problems.

    I Just use the Ellsworth ground gouge so outside is shear scraped inside is shear cut with the leading edge of the wing. I usually can sand with 220 and 320 - after spot sanding any areas that might need 180.

    I posted a thread in tips and techniques on turning a NE bowl from a crotch. It includes a video take of a demonstration I did. You can see how I use the tools.
    https://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/naural-edge-bowl-from-a-crotch.11058/
     
    Charles Cadenhead likes this.
  5. robo hippy

    robo hippy

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,929
    Location (City & State):
    Eugene, OR
    Well, I am wondering what caused the orange coloration. I am used to the sap wood on cherry turning that color almost instantly, and I have seen similar happenings on a few other woods. That type of 'oxidation' is a pain because it always sands out unevenly so you have to spend twice the time sanding or end up with 'splotches'. The soap mix does act as kind of a lubricant for difficult to sand woods. I have noticed with maple, mostly big leaf maple out here in Oregon, that it likes to mold, most likely from all the sugar in it. Not sure if that coloration on your bowls was mold or not. I have seen an orange splotching on Oregon Myrtle/California Bay Laurel as well, and some one told me it was one that was peculiar to the myrtle. It would not sand out. If you have card scrapers, they might be easier to remove that coloring than 80 grit.

    robo hippy
     
  6. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,884
    Location (City & State):
    Nebraska
    Every region of the country has a diverse geology and soil and substrate make up, depending on where the tree grows and the different mineral uptake can make a big difference in how the wood dries and what type of oxidation takes place with the chemicals, minerals, bacteria, molds, and fungi that occupy the wood. The region in Tennessee has a very diverse geology across the state. The same difference with a Highland and Lowland Scotch, or the flavor of the same wine from two vineyards 10 miles apart. Terroir. (Dirt)
     
    Timothy Allen likes this.
  7. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    I learned early on that wood can take on different traits based on where it grew. I got some red oak from a swampy/mucky field once and no matter what I did it smelled like an old swamp. Would stink up the room. My wife wouldn't let me bring it inside and when I turned it green I had to change outside. It eventually faded but it took quite a while. Had some yellow poplar do the same thing to me. Your word "oxidation" is a good description since it was a layer over the entire bowl. My ones recently out of the LDD bath have a bit of it coming on as they dry (pic attached). Really hope it's not as tough as before. The rust colored places were over entire bowl.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
    Mike Adams likes this.
  8. Fred Belknap

    Fred Belknap

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    253
    Location (City & State):
    Gassaway, WV
    Home Page:
    Randy I use hand scrapers before I do any sanding. I got my scrapers from Stewart McDonald tool co... They sell tools mostly for musical instrument makers. It is the easiest way to get rid of the hill and valleys you are talking about. They save me a lot of sanding. I also use NRS on my final cuts.
     
  9. robo hippy

    robo hippy

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,929
    Location (City & State):
    Eugene, OR
    Those scrapers from Stew/Mac are interesting. The video they have of them shows them being sharpened on standard grinding wheel, and the guy makes a comment that you can't burnish a burr on them. They only mention that they are 'tool steel'. A carbide burnishing rod will turn a nice burr on them. I prefer a carbide burnishing rod on standard card scrapers as well. They just do a better job.

    Randy, in looking at your picture, my first thought was that it was end grain turn out, but on second thought, that type of tear out is almost always only on 1 quadrant of the end grain and not on the other. This case is that coloration on both sides of the end grain. Must be related to the end grain some how. I would leave it as it king of high lights the end grain.

    robo hippy
     
    Mike Adams likes this.
  10. Richard Coers

    Richard Coers

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,056
    Location (City & State):
    Peoria, Illinois
    Oxidation is my theory. I've had it happen a lot as well.
     
  11. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    Wish I could describe it better. Correct, it's not tear out of the grain. The pic is from one I soaked in LDD and it seems to have reduced it so far. It's only been out for a couple days so will watch and see. Only way I know to describe it is a thick rust colored "fuzz" all over the bowl that takes all I can muster with 80 grit to remove back down to the light colored wood layer. I've also only used card scrapers with a bur on my flat work. Didn't think about using curved ones on bowls.
     
  12. Forrest Forschmiedt

    Forrest Forschmiedt

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2019
    Messages:
    64
    Location (City & State):
    Martinsville, VA
    Home Page:
    Do you use the scrapers with the bowl on the lathe and turning?

    StewMac does have cool stuff for tool geeks such as myself!
     
  13. Fred Belknap

    Fred Belknap

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    253
    Location (City & State):
    Gassaway, WV
    Home Page:
    No I don't use these scrapers with the lathe spinning. I lock the spindle and do one section at a time. These scrapers need to work with the grain, you will know when you do it wrong as they will chatter. They work faster than sanding and no dust. I always do some final sanding .
     
  14. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    Followup - started sanding on small live edge maple that I had soaked in LDD for a couple days just after turning green. HUGE difference. No rust oxidation layer and sanding is night and day better/easier so far. Not sure if fluke but I'm sold. All my green turned stuff is going into LDD soak for a couple of days then into bag to dry.
     
  15. robo hippy

    robo hippy

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,929
    Location (City & State):
    Eugene, OR
    I tried thinning out the mix from 50/50 to 25/75, and it didn't work as well. Soak needs to be 24 hours. Much more than that really didn't do anything. Do use clear or yellow soap. The colored soaps will leave a tint to your bowls. The old standard was the brown Costo so Kirkland soap, I believe. I use a lemon variety I can find at a whole sale grocery outlet. The soap does draw some color out of the wood you soak in it. I don't put walnut in my soap soak....... It may be necessary to weight down your bowls so they are totally submerged. Don't use metal, other than stainless steel, even bbq grills will metal stain the wood. If the bowls are not totally submerged, you will get a color ring on the part that is floating above the surface. If you flip them over to soak the above surface part, there is still a line... Been there, done that, more than once....

    robo hippy
     
  16. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    Thanks Robo, I'll increase my mix for next batch. Probably close to 25% now. Used cheap, clear unscented. Didn't need a fresh apple smell on my bowls. Using big rounded rock to hold them under. Maple would sink on it's own after a short time. Bradford Pear never did sink. So far only soaked live edge ones and bark seemed fine. I watched your video of how you use it a long time ago. Wish I had followed the advice then. I just rinse them well when I take them out and then put in a bag. Thinking I may skip the bag and just put them on a shelf and see how it goes. Traditional are twice turned so they will just get soaked, rinsed, sealed and go on the shelf. Not as brave as you yet with single turn and on the shelf for traditional.
     
  17. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    My LDD is in a 5 gal bucket with a lid. Any tips on how to know when to change it?
     
  18. robo hippy

    robo hippy

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,929
    Location (City & State):
    Eugene, OR
    Well, I think when it gets pretty dark, then I change it. That is not an exact science though.... I used to keep a separate bucket for black walnut, but I because sensitive to walnut and don't turn it any more. It is one of those woods that didn't sell well when I had it, and when I was out of it, people would request it, and the process started all over again. If you turn and soak a lot of cherry, and then put some light colored maple in it, it will color the maple, or ash... My madrone is my most favorite wood, and it leaves the soap mix a nice red/purple color. That doesn't seem to color the darker myrtle/California Bay Laurel that I turn. I don't turn much maple as the madrone and myrtle outsell it by far. The soaps that have added fragrance to them don't seem to add scent to the wood, or if they do, then it is gone very shortly, both from the wood and the bucket. I would think that with the 25% mix, you could get good results if you soaked it longer. I tried just dipping and letting it dry right away and didn't get good results. Ideal would be spray it on, let it dry and then sand, but again, that didn't work as well as the 24 hour soak.

    robo hippy
     
  19. Danny Shamoon

    Danny Shamoon

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2020
    Messages:
    16
    Location (City & State):
    Clovis, California
    Being I'm new to bowl turning, what is LDD? Is it liquid Dish Detergent? If so, what brand do you use? Any tips for wet sanding? I did a search for wet sanding and got almost everything under the sun. I'm currently trying to turn some ambrosa maple and have some tear out and wondering the best way to sand smooth.
    Thanks for the help.
    Danny
     
  20. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    Yes, it stands for liquid dish detergent. Robo has much more experience and a youtube video with more details on it. I think there are also other online info pieces on it. I've only just started trying it out in my process on some pieces. So far it has helped a lot on sanding the maple I tested. Since I twice turn my traditional pieces I'm not soaking those. Only my natural edge stuff. I bought cheap, store brand, big bottle, clear if they have it, no scent if they have it. Tear out on maple might be a chore to sand out and not create all sorts of ripples in your work. You have a neg rake scraper?
     
  21. Don Wattenhofer

    Don Wattenhofer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Messages:
    680
    Location (City & State):
    Ponsford, MN
    Well I,m an old F**t who has been turning for close to 60 years and I have never heard the term LDD so it would be nice if something like this is started with "L**** D**** D*****". The oxidation is typical of many species but the one I have had the most trouble with is birch. The problem can be eliminated in most species by once turning to 1/8th inch or less wall thickness.
     
    Mike Adams likes this.
  22. robo hippy

    robo hippy

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,929
    Location (City & State):
    Eugene, OR
    LDD: liquid dishwashing detergent. The process was started by Ron Kent of Hawaii to help him deal with sanding the Norfolk Island Pine bowls he made. That pine, like all others has pitch in it which really gums up the abrasives. You soak, for 24 hours in a mix of 1/2 LDD and 1/2 water. Use a clear or yellow, or tan type of hand dishwashing soap, the Kirkland brand was popular. The blue and green ones can color your wood. Make sure the bowls are totally submersed. After 24 or so hours, remove. I rinse them off in the sink, or outside with the hose. Let dry for a bit, then I wrap the rims with the stretch plastic film. The soap, and/or the lanolin in the soap seems to act as a lubricant, which makes sanding much easier. This method has no effect on drying time, warping, or crack prevention. I have only used it on once turned bowls which I want to warp. I am not sure if it would do anything for thicker blanks for twice turned bowls as you would most likely turn off all of the soaked wood when you do the second turning. The soaking will pull some color out of the wood. So, if you start with black walnut and go to sugar maple, the maple will be considerably darker. I used to keep a separate tub for the walnut. I only turn madrone and myrtle/bay laurel now days, but have some cherry outside now.... I have tried spraying the wood and letting it dry, and I have tried longer soaks with less soap and more water. They did not work nearly as well as the 24 hour soak.

    robo hippy
     
  23. Danny Shamoon

    Danny Shamoon

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2020
    Messages:
    16
    Location (City & State):
    Clovis, California
    No I don't have a scraper. Truth be told, I'm using carbide tools mainly because I have a Shopsmith and don't want the expense of having a grinder for HSS tools only. I know that will be looked down upon, but my choice.
    THANKS for the help, I appreciate it.
    Danny
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  24. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    Danny, don’t let anyone that might be a tool snob discourage you. I started with carbide scraper tools and used them for quite a while. Still have two sets and use them from time to time depending on what I’m doing. You can do some great work with them. Lots of great turners on YouTube with examples of their work with them.
     
  25. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    6,554
    Location (City & State):
    Lakeland, Florida
    Home Page:
    you don’t have to apologize for using carbides or whatever tools you use.

    Each maker decides what works for them within various limits.
    how you make is less important than what you make.

    I would guess that most turners today use some carbides. A growing number use mostly carbides.

    Personally I have tools that work better for me than the carbides so I use them most of the time.
    I have friend with limited range of motion who does exceptional work with only carbides.
    He won some best in show awards in turning completions- the judges didn’t know or care what tools he used.
     
    Danny Shamoon likes this.
  26. Mark Jundanian

    Mark Jundanian

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2018
    Messages:
    635
    Location (City & State):
    La Grange, IL
    @Danny Shamoon , if you're getting a lot of tear out you could try the negative rake carbide tips from Easy Wood.
     
    Danny Shamoon likes this.
  27. Danny Shamoon

    Danny Shamoon

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2020
    Messages:
    16
    Location (City & State):
    Clovis, California
    Mark... THANKS, Do you recommend a roughing or finishing neg rake? I have a roughing neg rake on my Easy Wood Easy Stat Set. I do have some full size tools I can put one on.
    Thanks again
    Danny
     
  28. Danny Shamoon

    Danny Shamoon

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2020
    Messages:
    16
    Location (City & State):
    Clovis, California
    Randy... THANKS I've been doing mostly pens and stoppers and the carbide works well for me there.
     
  29. Mark Jundanian

    Mark Jundanian

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2018
    Messages:
    635
    Location (City & State):
    La Grange, IL
    I don't call it a rougher. I call it a radiused square, and I use it whenever I think it the right tool for the task, not just roughing. Similarly I will sometimes use a round carbide scraper when taking a square edge into round. And, though I use it less often, I just finished a piece that mostly used the NR diamond detailer. So short answer to your question is get round and square and if you can afford it the diamond, too.

    More important, I forgot to mention that Woodcraft has these cutters on sale.

    Be certain they will fit your tools before you buy. What brand of carbide tools are you using?
     
  30. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    A friend of mine bought the neg rake scraper for his easy wood tools and had a tough time getting it to work right. That said, he's very new and not sure he was using it correctly. I've never tried one so don't know the technique on using them . When I want to use my round carbide scraper for very light cleanup I tilt it so that cutting edge is tilted slightly down. Not ideal on a square shaft tool but helped when trying to do cleanup on inside transition area of a bowl where I was very prone to catch with it. Not really a bur edge cut but worked OK for me at times.
     
  31. Danny Shamoon

    Danny Shamoon

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2020
    Messages:
    16
    Location (City & State):
    Clovis, California
    The reason I called it a "rougher" is that's the terminology that Easy Wood uses. I made my tools from using some stuff on Amazon. They are basically Ci0 (16mm) and CiR2 (15mm). I've ordered one of each NR cutters and should have them tomorrow. I'll give them a try and see.
    THANKS for the help, I appreciate it very much.
     
    Mark Jundanian likes this.
  32. Danny Shamoon

    Danny Shamoon

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2020
    Messages:
    16
    Location (City & State):
    Clovis, California
    Randy.... THANKS. I'm learning a lot, mostly by trial and some error. Haven't been injured yet. :) Just a little humor.
     
  33. Danny Shamoon

    Danny Shamoon

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2020
    Messages:
    16
    Location (City & State):
    Clovis, California
    I watched a video from Woodworkers Journal about bowl drying and they used desiccant to put the bowls in for 24-48 hours. Interesting I thought
     
  34. robo hippy

    robo hippy

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,929
    Location (City & State):
    Eugene, OR
    Well, the NRS is not a roughing tool. No clue as to why they would call it that. A standard scraper, carbide or other is very efficient for removing a lot of bulk in a hurry, and for me, it is my favorite tool for all of my bowl roughing. Scrapers are not a good tool for removing tear out, and that extends to the NRS. They work well on some woods, generally the harder woods like sugar/hard maple, and not well on the softer woods, and that would be the softer maples like Norway or Big Leaf. A shear scrape does a better job of removing tear out than a scraper, and some times a gouge is needed. It is really highly variable... I have videos up, Scary Scrapers, and Shear Scraping.

    robo hippy
     
  35. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    Bowl drying is one of those discussions that can get confusing and complicated quickly. At least it was for me. Many different options, some swear by one or the other, etc. For me, and I have a lot less experience than many here, I've stuck with what seems to work and give me a good return with reasonable time. There are SO many variables - wood type, time of year cut, how wet, where you live, traditional or live edge, etc. I watched many many videos and tried a few different methods and settled on one that works for me. Some require a great deal of work and effort, others don't. Depends on how much you want to babysit stuff at some point. I did watch the desiccant video a long time ago and decided it wasn't for me. I may have 20-30 blanks in process and it was a lot to manage before and after. My two cents, pick a process and stick with it if your return/fail rate is ok and the time to manage is reasonable for you. There also isn't a "set" timeframe. I've turned multiple bowls from same tree green and had some take weeks and some take months. It can vary a lot. I don't believe there are shortcuts that work well. It just take time. If you turn blanks for a while and set aside to dry, in whatever process you pick, it won't take long before you're working both ends of the process. Sanding and finishing and making more to dry. It catches up with you faster than you think it will.

    For me for green wood.

    Live Edge - turn to final, write date on bottom, put in paper grocery bag and check about 1/week or more if have time. When moisture content gets to 13% or less in very bottom of bowl or bottom of tenon I set aside in shop for a few days, let air dry a bit more and then sand, finish. One change I've made to this recently is what Robo does, I put them in an LDD solution for 24 hours and then they go into the bag.

    Traditional - turn wall thickness to 10% of bowl dia, write date on bottom, seal with anchorseal and set aside on shelf in shop. Check from time to time for cracks, address with CA glue if needed. When MC gets to the 13% or less in bottom or tenon then finish turn, sand, done.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020

Share This Page