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Rolling Blackouts and 3520B VSD

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Paul Gilbert, Feb 17, 2021.

  1. Paul Gilbert

    Paul Gilbert

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    Well, during one of the lights on periods, I thought to go out into the shop and check the lathe. Sure enough, I got a 0 rpm reading on the display, but I couldn't get the lathe to run. A bunch of other stuff in the house doesn't work, the most serious is the damper/heat/etc. board on the HVAC system.

    The HVAC system is waiting on parts, here in Dallas, TX UPS isn't running.

    Before I go out and buy a new VSD, it there something I can check to see if I can get it back up and running?

    The info on "Mustard Monster" is a bit dated. If the worst case serineo applies, what is the best VSD out there that a layman can install and program?
     
  2. Richard Coers

    Richard Coers

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  3. odie

    odie

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    Well, I hope it's not too much trouble to get back up and running, Paul. :D

    I guess you've got internet, or you couldn't have posted here. Here's a video of a 170 year old tool box with the tools intact......I found it very interesting, and a good way to enjoy killing a little time. I know there are a few on this forum who are really going to like this:


    View: https://youtu.be/_pRKHfr1wDI


    -----odie-----
     
  4. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    That's why I unplug my Powermatic everytime a.storm is coming or when I leave.the shop. This ice storm we have had the power go on an off 5 times in a matter of minutes. I'm sure it would have killed my VFD if it had been plugged in.
     
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  5. Bill Blasic

    Bill Blasic

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    I always disconnect power from my lathes as the only thing I trust is that no power connection is the absolute best way to go.
     
  6. William Rogers

    William Rogers

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    Paul, not much help and I am another “unplugger” when I leave the shop.
     
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  7. Rusty Nesmith

    Rusty Nesmith

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    I also unplug when I leave the shop.
     
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  8. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    Another "unplugger" here. Bandsaw and DP are always online but they don't cost as much as the lathe to replace.
     
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  9. William Rogers

    William Rogers

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    I have a lot of those tools from my grandfather. Many of the steel tools are stamped “cast steel”. I use to have them on a 4’ X 8’ board for display before I moved 5 years ago. Need to do that again.
     
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  10. Lou Jacobs

    Lou Jacobs

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    Paul, so sorry about your grief. I hope it resolves without too much difficulty. Keep us informed. we are in the midst of a snow/freezing rain/ice storm here for the next 24 hours or so. I had been planning on going out to the shop today to rough turn a bunch of highly convoluted/figured mulberry on my 3520C that was offered to my club last week. Given the risk of power outage during the weather, I think I’ll keep the lathe unplugged, do as much as I can on the bandsaw, and call it a day.
     
  11. Chris Lawrence

    Chris Lawrence

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    Is there a display on the VFD in the back. You might have to take a cover off to see it. If there is it might be showing an error. There might be a reset button there to. I don't have a 3520b but i have a couple pieces of equipment with a VFD
     
  12. Dave Landers

    Dave Landers

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    You probably already tried hitting the reset button on the VFD, but I mention it just in case....
     
  13. Doug Rasmussen

    Doug Rasmussen

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    " If the worst case serineo applies, what is the best VSD out there that a layman can install and program?"

    This could be tricky assuming your drive is fried. It may not be a question of the best and/or the easiest to install and program. Unless Powermatic is willing to assist you in bypassing their parts department (very unlikely IMO) you may have to buy an over priced replacement from them. Forget about the low cost VFD's from online sellers.

    I don't know how integrated the factory supplied VFD on your lathe is. There is no guarantee whatever integration the existing VFD has that another brand's replacement will have identically labeled and identical function wire hookup terminals. And, how will you know what parameters to program? I just went through this nightmare scenario on a CNC machine tool, the old VFD died. I had to pay top dollar to a local dealer for help in getting a modern VFD integrated into that machine. Granted, my situation was far more complicated than a wood lathe, still....
     
  14. Chris Lawrence

    Chris Lawrence

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    I think most lathes use a somewhat generic VFD that they program to there specs and lock it with a passcode so no one can access it. The code for the 3520b is out there on the web as is the settings. If you can go through program settings there should be no need to buy the over priced VFD from powermatic just buy the rebranded one they use and input the 3520b settings.
     
  15. odie

    odie

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    Note: I have my lathe and compressor on a timer that shuts off past midnight. (available at HD) I don't use the auto turn-on tab, and manually turn on the power when I enter the shop, usually sometime past noon. Not only does this keep the power off for the lathe in a circumstance like this thread, it prevents the compressor from continually running, should there be an air leak in the plumbing.

    -----odie-----

    compressor timer.jpg
     
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  16. John Hammonds

    John Hammonds

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    The inverter (VFD) on my 3520B blew about 2 years ago. If the inverter is indeed bad, you can order one from Powermatic (or used to be able to) for about $650 already programmed or you can buy the same inverter from a supplier for around $250 and program it yourself. The first option is just a wiring job. I chose the second option... bought same inverter from supplier and programmed it. To program it, you need the settings. If your inverter still has life, you might be able to toggle through the menu and record them. Otherwise, I can provide.

    And, oh by the way, it helped to have my 30-something daughter looking over my shoulder to make sure I was working the menu options correctly during programming. She grew up in the digital age. I didn't. :D And, no, she doesn't hire out.

    By the way, I agree that it's always a good idea to unplug your lathe when not in use. An added, unanticipated, benefit in using a generic inverter was that mine (same model number as original) came with a little cooling fan in it. When I'm leaving the shop I can hear that little fan running and it reminds me to unplug. Should also help keep the inverter components cool in my Georgia shop ... hot and humid, and these inverters are not really designed for that environment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
  17. Lou Jacobs

    Lou Jacobs

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    John, are you saying the switch on the VFD of the 3520c is a complete cut-off, serving the same function as unplugging the machine? My 3520c documentation suggests installing a cut-off switch so I assumed it was still at risk in the event of a surge, lightning strike, etc.
     
  18. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I think it's unlikely that the inverter is toast, but power flickering could possibly have put it in a state that changed some of the motor parameters. If unplugging the lathe for an hour or two doesn't clear the problem then the next step should be to call Powermatic support. I would also download the manual for the Delta inverter and check the troubleshooting section.
     
  19. Joe Kaufman

    Joe Kaufman

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    I checked with Delta re the VFD model number on the PM3520B 3+ years ago and was told it was no longer in production or something similar. That could also be interpreted that Delta would only sell that model to JPW Industries = Jet / Powermatic. Maybe Delta shipped the VFD preprogrammed for JPW's applications. It was difficult getting information. This will get you a picture and a starting point - https://www.deltaww.com/en-US/products/Inverters-AC-Motor-Drives/103

    If you don't want to purchase a Delta S1 replacement drive from JPW or a 3rd party and go through the programming hassles and risks you might check with JPW customer service re the feasibility of using the 3520C VFD on a 3520B model. I would expect that they wouldn't get involved but you might get some useful information. It would be interesting the knowing the price of each VFD from JPW. If you are going to spend $600+ dollars it might be worth the upgrade to a more current model.
     
  20. Rusty Nesmith

    Rusty Nesmith

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    I am an electrician and have installed many different brands. Allen Bradley are the best and most user friendly in my opinion.
     
  21. Richard Coers

    Richard Coers

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  22. Paul Gilbert

    Paul Gilbert

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    The display on the VFD is completely dark. Pressing all of the buttons gets me nothing. The RPM display on the front of the lathe is on, so I do have power to the lathe. I am currently waiting in the que at Powermatic.

    For you EE's out there. Would a whole house surge protector have prevented this? I lost some strange stuff like the DeWalt battery charger for my battery operated hand tools. I haven't tried the saws, planers, dust collector etc. but I think these are pretty much immune to this type of attack. (a lightning strike excepted) It is my impression that it is controller boards that are vulnerable.

    While looking for whole house surge protectors I stumbled across surge protector circuit breakers. Now I can plug in a circuit breaker, but am a bit hesitant to try to muck around in the back of my breaker panel. Are these any good?

    Powermatic just cut me off. Customer service is now closed. I guess that I'll have to wait for the Spring thaw.
     
  23. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Tool box has been sold. Dang it! If I had seen that at auction, it would have come home with me....

    robo hippy
     
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  24. Joe Kaufman

    Joe Kaufman

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    3520B inverter (VFD) from Powermatic = $789, C inverter = $826 + enclosure $61. As i remember the 3rd party price on an generic B inverter was $200-$300 range

    On a closer look, the C model speed sensor is different and uses the speed display for indexing. That would open a can of worms, forget the "upgrade idea"
     
  25. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

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    Well, I've never given much thought to the Delta VFD on my lathe going out but reading this makes me a bit anxious that should it happen it's not a trivial task to fix. As posted here I might see if I can go through the settings and record them for future use. Not sure how to go about it and hesitant to do something that messes them up so will do some online research first. I also never unplug or turn off the lathe so need to look at that as well.
     
  26. Steve Tiedman

    Steve Tiedman

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    Rather than unplugging my lathe, I have a 2-pole, single throw on/off switch wired upstream of the receptacle that the 220v lathe motor is plugged into. I shut off that switch after every turning session. May not protect on a lightning strike, but it does the trick for other power anomalies that may occur.
     
  27. Don Wattenhofer

    Don Wattenhofer

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    At one time I looked into programming the Delta VFD's and found that they require a separate programming module. I do not have any machines purchased with a VFD installed but I do have 7 VFD's operating various machines including a LaBlond metal lathe, a Powermatic 90 wood lathe and a Grizzly originally with a stepper motor now with a 3PH induction motor and a TECO VFD. The VFD's I have currently in service, except for 1 are programable directly using the built in key pad.
    The VFD I have on the metal lathe seams to be the most versatile and that was purchased from Automation Direct and if you were to give them the model number of the Delta VFD and a diagram of the controls on the lathe they would be able to recommend a replacement and maybe even program it for you. The photo below is the installation on the metal lathe.
    DSC00830.JPG
     
  28. Richard Coers

    Richard Coers

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    At least a couple pages of youtube videos on programming a Delta VFD. It sure doesn't look like black magic to me.
     
  29. Bob Sheppard

    Bob Sheppard

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    I learned to unplug my Jet 1642 when I had to replace it's VFD after a storm. It was an expensive lesson.
     
  30. John Hammonds

    John Hammonds

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    Lou, I edited my comment to delete reference to the C model switch just to avoid confusion. You should, of course, follow owner's manual recommendations. I don't understand why they would include a "cut-off" switch in addition to a Stop button (which all lathes have) if the "cut-off" switch doesn't interrupt all power to the machine ... provide an air gap to line voltage. And then the owner is asked to install yet another cut-off switch? Why not just unplug the machine? I'm confused. But my confusion is irrelevant.
     
  31. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I checked online and there were a few distributors that indicated that there were a couple of Delta S-1 2HP, 230VAC, single-phase input inverter models still available. Whether these models had all of the required performance parameters of the discontinued model, you would need to compare specs.

    Here are direct links to a couple of useful items:
     
  32. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    That's not good news. It sounds like your power failure wasn't a clean interruption ... apparently, there were some high voltage transients on its way down. It's hard to say how much protection would be provided by surge suppressors. They're probably better than nothing, but not good enough to protect everything. Some devices such as ground fault and arc fault interrupters don't play well with VFDs.

    We have been fortunate because our power never even blinked. The bitter cold probably killed most of our landscaping and lawn, but at least we didn't have any tree limbs falling on our house. We received an emergency alert that we needed to boil all of our drinking water until further notice. I think that this affects most of Texas. And, there's no point in trying to find bottled water anywhere. The stores that are still open look like a plague of locusts came through. :eek:
     
  33. Lou Jacobs

    Lou Jacobs

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    John, it is a mystery to me. In the 3520C documentation, the Power switch is described as “activates power flow to inverter and motor”. But a page later they issue a caution that says “A lightning strike or power surge may cause the inverter to fail. When lathe is not in use, disconnect power plug, or have a three pole disconnect installed on the power side.” Perhaps they are just covering themselves against warranty claims if a surge jumps the gap, when in fact the power switch should be sufficient to isolate the electronics. I’ll continue to unplug, as it has now become habit (mostly).
     
  34. James Seyfried

    James Seyfried

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    Bill, I have my lathe and drill press (PM that display stays on) on switched outlets. I did it mainly so that they are completely off when not in use. But also felt that I was protecting them from lightning or other electrical problems. Should I reconsider that opinion?

    I guess I should consider myself fortunate a few years ago when the power went out while I was turning the inside of a vessel. I did feel fortunate that I didn't ruin the vessel when the lights went out, but didn't even think about it trashing the VFD.
     
  35. Tom De Winter

    Tom De Winter

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    Unplugging is the only (commonly available) way to protect from lightning strikes. And then only if there is no other connection to the equipment such as a phone or cable line.
    I was disappointed that my new Jet 1840 doesn't have a power switch. Perhaps for the best.
     
  36. John Hammonds

    John Hammonds

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    OK, Lou, out of a sense of intense curiosity I pulled up the owner's manual for the 3520C and I think I've solved the puzzle. I had heard that the 'C' model ships without a power cord and was wondering why they would do such a thing ... figured that out too. So, from the owner's manual:

    • Page 11, Section 7.0: "This lathe is shipped without a cord. This lathe must be permanently connected to the electrical system in accordance with the National Electrical Code and any other applicable state and local codes. Extension cords should not be used with this lathe. Consult a licensed electrician if you are unsure how to properly connect this lathe to the building’s electrical system."
    Apparently, they really, really want to prevent the owner from using an extension cord. The power supply cable is to be routed from a 20 amp circuit breaker or time delay fuse and connected to the "Main Switch box" (fig.7.1).
    • Page 16, Section 9.0 (A): "Power switch: Activates power flow to inverter and motor." See figure 9-1.
    Note here that the name of the switch has been changed but it's the same switch. Note also that the switch "activates" power to your machine. In other words, it does the same thing as plugging in and unplugging. Note also in figure 7.1 that the left position of the switch is labeled "O", indicating an open circuit, and the right position is labeled "I" for a closed (or connected) circuit. So, yes, the Power or Main switch is intended to be used instead of plugging in and unplugging.
    • At the end of Section 9.0: "Caution: A lightning strike or power surge may cause the inverter to fail. When lathe is not in use, disconnect power plug, or have a 3-pole disconnect installed on the power side."
    This, I think, is a holdover from the previous models (I have the 'B') which do not have a Power disconnect switch. Your Power switch serves the purpose of a disconnect. Note that it contradicts section 7.0 and is, therefore, a technical error in the document .... as is using two different names for the same switch by the way. What it does tell us correctly though is that we're not to leave the lathe plugged in or the Power switch in the "I" position when it's not in use.
    • Page 41
    Here, again, it's called the Main switch and is shown in the upper right of the wiring diagram. It shows it is "upstream" of the inverter and motor and serves to disconnect power from the lathe.
    So, in summary, if your 3520C is plugged into a wall outlet (in violation of the owner's manual ... sorry, that's just what it says) then you have two ways of disconnecting power. You can unplug or you can turn the Power switch to "O" ... or both. If it is "hardwired" to your distribution panel, then you would use the Power switch to disconnect power and provide protection against power surges. I hope that helps.

    Reference: https://content.powermatic.com/assets/manuals/1353001_man_EN.pdf
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2021
  37. Ric Williams

    Ric Williams

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    Did the same thing on my 3520C even though there's one on the back. I didn't like applying power if I had something already mounted on the lathe because I either had to reach over or under whatever was mounted, or go around to the back to activate the switch. I can reach the external switch easily and safer and it's right next to the power strip for the lathe lights.
     
  38. Lou Jacobs

    Lou Jacobs

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    Absolutely helps John. Thanks! I had an electrician run the circuit to a 220 outlet and install a cord and plug. So I suppose I am in violation, but I don’t see a downside to it. It may technically be an extension cord, though it is only five or six feet from machine to plug. When I’m not forgetful (most of the time, I turn off the switch, and unplug. I appreciate your curiosity!
     
  39. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    I noted that you said a bunch of other stuff in the house does not work. Long before I started turning we had a storm and power was out . When it came back up we had stuff that did not work. The problem was in the fuses in the power box outside . Breakers were engaged but one was fried and acted like it was working. Get your electrician to check the box.
     
  40. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    The only protection against a lightning strike, as Tom said, is to unplug it. Lightening has no trouble at all jumping across open switch contacts.
     
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