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Responsibility...

Discussion in 'AAW Information' started by Ed Davidson, Nov 10, 2010.

  1. Ed Davidson

    Ed Davidson

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    I’d like for everyone to consider something that I’ve never seen discussed here on this forum or elsewhere, and that is responsibility. For those who have entered into this process of second-guessing everything that the Board does – regardless of your motivation – I think you see no personal consequences to your actions because you have no personal responsibility to deal with the outcome. The Board on the other hand, must (and does) weigh the plusses and minuses of every decision they make in terms of precedence, consistency with past practices, burdens placed on future Boards, and a host of other considerations. In many cases, there are consequences to consider. For example, this most recent discussion on disclosure of BoD election voting results down to the individual candidate level…some argue that as an AAW member, they have the right to know that information, and demand disclosure, further arguing that failure to disclose what is demanded must be a result of some conspiracy, lack of moral fiber or corruption. On the other hand, the Board must bear the burden of their policy decisions - e.g. will AAW be able to effectively seat qualified and good intentioned new Board members in the future?

    Like it or not, there are consequences to every decision the Board makes, and those who make the decisions are in the best position to weigh each side of the argument. To sit on the sidelines, throwing stones without personal knowledge of the discussions and considerations that have gone into Board decisions, servers what purpose, exactly? Furthering lack of trust? Vendetta? In the end, the “we’re just keeping them honest” attitude results in nothing more than a divided organization, with everyone either ignoring what’s going on, choosing sides, or walking away in disgust…and what good is any of that?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
  2. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    Well said Ed. When the board sent the vote off to an independent firm to be tallied I thought that was good enough and showed that they are trying to get past the lack of trust.
    I don't see a need to go further.
     
  3. AlanZ

    AlanZ Resident Techno Geek

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    Ed,

    There's a difference between throwing stones and having a civil conversation about things that could be considered to improve the organization.

    The former is not productive. The latter is a way to engage the membership.

    It's the BOD that will determine whether the ideas discussed have merit.
     
  4. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Simplest Resolution

    If the Nominating Committee would, as the last part of their candidate review and recommendation process, ask each candidate "Do you mind if your vote tally gets published after the election?" we could resolve the whole question right there with no judgment call by the Board required.

    Allowed replies could be "Yes", "No", "Yes/No if I win", "No/Yes if I lose".

    "Game" decided in advance by agreement.

    [Now I'll see how long it takes for someone to post "I won't vote for anyone who doesn't want his totals published!" And the beat go on . . . .] ;)
     
  5. Ed Davidson

    Ed Davidson

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    Alan,

    My comments were not directed at you personally (that’s why I started a new thread), but rather to that small group who continue to pursue aggressive, accusatory and divisive dialogs on this forum and elsewhere.
     
  6. AlanZ

    AlanZ Resident Techno Geek

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    Ed,

    I understand that your comments were not directed at me.

    However, it's worth noting that with your original post, intended or not, you may be sending a chilling effect through the forum.

    When a webmaster comes on and suggests that there are consequences for opnions expressed in discussions, it may very well be taken as a 'be quiet, you don't know what we know, we'll handle things'

    As I said, this may not be your intent... but you also need to reflect on the responsibility that comes with displaying "AAW Webmaster" in your signature line.

    Although I know that you don't manage the forum, keep in mind that with your signature, your words are generally not just taken as thoughts of a fellow member.

    So consider the responsiblity of asking people to consider the responsibility.... (oooh, my head is starting to hurt from the recursive potential) <vbg>
     
  7. davidwalser

    davidwalser

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    As a practical matter, unless all the candidates were to agree to have their vote total published, the AAW shouldn't publish the totals for any of the candidates. If you have the totals for 3 or 4 of the candidates, it wouldn't be too hard to approximate the totals of the other candidates.
     
  8. George Guadiane

    George Guadiane

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    This issue was raised a while ago, you know "THEN!" At that time, David Walser addressed that to me. I had been, I admit, vocal. At the start, I WAS overly accusatory, but got right with myself along the way... Like many others, I asked a lot of questions (most yet to be acknowledged, let alone answered).

    Ed,
    You are absolutely wrong about the above.
    In taking such a strong stand, and being responded to equally strongly, I traded away any progress in becoming a professional/"name" turner. OK, I'm not SO great yet, but I do feel like I have the combination of ingredients to "create" and impart. I have already had a few (small/local) award winning ideas.
    Who was I standing against? I don't think I need to list them, but several of them were judges in this past season's rotation of contests.
    I didn't enter ANY of those contests, as I figured that I had no chance in getting serious/fair consideration from people with whom I had shared STRONG words.
    Going forward, I don't think that these people will go out of their way to help me in any way, and I suppose I don't blame them.
    I'm good with that. I stood up for what I believed then (and now) and I get what I get.

    I will concede that the BoD SHOULD be in the best position to decide what actions to take, but after "that" incident, I can't say that I'm certain that they will act in any interest that I would agree on. My trust and acceptance will be slow in returning to the BoD as an entity and some of "that" BoD may never have my trust again.
    Don't presume that we are "on the sidelines," or that we believe, even for a moment that we are not invested. Every one of us who spoke out strongly runs the risk of being kept on or sent to those sidelines by those name artisans who are in a position to keep/send us there.

    We ARE a divided organization. We will likely BE a divided organization for a while... Those of us who are waiting for answers to questions we think deserve to be raised and answered, about things that caused us concern are not satisfied with our current quarantine from the facts (WOW, that DOES make sense, but you may need a guide dog)...

    I appreciate your intent, and I have been reading and keeping quiet, but I think your assumption is in error. Just like the BoD, but probably to a lesser degree, we all know that the actions we took and the statements we made have weight/consequences.

    Later you wrote:
    As I said, I have kept mostly quiet, but feel that those who have questions left unanswered, unacknowledged in many cases have every right to feel that they are neither being represented or served.
    If they have that right, then they have the right to take whatever steps necessary to, at the very least be acknowledged. Wanting a thing to be over but leaving some/many of the players standing on the field with no acceptable outcome isn't an acceptable solution.

    Personally, I'd be happier to hear that Satan will have icicles on his horns before I'll get answers than to hear silence or obfuscation... But maybe that's just me.
     
  9. Royce Wallace

    Royce Wallace

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    Responsability

    Ed: For some time I have remained silent waiting for developments -- by-law amendments, elections, display of wisdom by AAW leadership, etc. Your posting concerning responsability being vested, apparently, solely in the AAW BoD, is, I believe, in error. I cannot refrain from responding. I believe every person commenting about the conduct of the affairs of AAW is responsible for the impact of their comments. It is also my opinion that member commentary is the source of information which AAW leadership should review and value, whatever its' character, source, or content.

    Every commentator is responsible for the influence exerted by the commentary they cause to be published. All of my comments in the past have been made with the deliberate purpose of influencing the reader. I am resposible for the consequence whatever it may be. Most of my coments have been sharply critical of the present BoD. I remain of the same opinion.

    The problem I have with your commentary is the suggestion the BoD has the exclusive wisdom to make proper decisions via correct procedures. You also suggest that those making commentary of a critical nature do not contribute to the welfare of AAW. I disagree. The membership of AAW contains persons of significant wisdom--they should be listened to when they suggest error-wrong headedness--poor judgment, etc.
     
  10. davidwalser

    davidwalser

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    George,

    I'm very sorry you didn't enter those contests. Human nature being what it is, some of the judges may have held your words against you and and would not have given your work a fair review. In making your decision to withhold your work from the contests, you seemed to have ignored another aspect of human nature: Some of us take our duties as judges very seriously. In trying to be fair, it's human nature to overcompensate. So, many of us would have unintentionally given your work HIGHER marks just to prove our lack of bias! Had you entered, you may have found that any thumb on the scale would have worked in your favor.

    There's another, more serious, reason why I wish you had entered those contests. In withholding your work because you feared the judges would not give you a fair shake, you judged the character of the judges. Perhaps you or I would have held a grudge (I hope we are both better men than that!), but you gave them no chance to prove that they would do their jobs correctly.

    How can we heal this divide if those on each side refuse to deal with the other side because we "know" those on the other side are holding grudges? You, by reaching across the divide and entering your work, could have played a small part in the healing process. You still can, by seeking out those with whom you disagreed -- even those with whom you've had strong words -- and engaging them in a positive manner.

    George, perhaps I should have sent this as a private message. I didn't because, while it's obviously directed at you, I think it applies to most of us. While we exchanged sharp and strong words, I always thought your view was honestly held. I hope to see you at a future event because I've promised myself the honor of buying you a beer. If I ever have the chance to make the offer in person, I hope you'll accept. You and I may not agree on any number of things, but we both share a passion for turning, woodworking in general, and our families. On that basis, we should be friends.
     
  11. AlanZ

    AlanZ Resident Techno Geek

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    See what one cool breeze can do? <vbg>
     
  12. Marvin Hasenak

    Marvin Hasenak

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    There is a lot of truth in that statement. Not only from the webmaster, but from others that also reply like they are in the know.
     
  13. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Well said, Dave, thank you.

    George, earlier this year when your piece won the forum contest, you posted a message on the forum saying that you bet a photo of you winning piece would not be printed in the journal. You and I have never met, never had a conversation, so I was surprised by that statement. Of course I did include a photo of your work (I think in the August journal).

    I can promise that the journal will continue to be inclusive of everyone's work to the greatest extent possible.


    Betty Scarpino, editor, AW
     
  14. George Guadiane

    George Guadiane

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    David,
    I'd call us turning buddies, friends don't come easily to me. I have always been reluctant to use the word and/or make the commitment. Even the people that I agree with on more than you and I share are not all friends.
    I hear you on the judgment issue, and you're right, up to a point. In arriving at a decision not to participate, I considered the fees involved and the words that each of us had used in making our cases. I'm also valuing those words and presuming that they meant what they said, the way that they said what they said (I sure did - most of the time*)
    I'm not laying all of the "blame" on them, I used some pretty strong language. My point is, not just that I didn't know whether or not they could be fair. The rest of my thinking was whether or not I wanted to find out.
    Additionally, "THAT" whole thing took so much out of me that I didn't know if I could do the work I needed to in the time I had at the level that I needed to. I started one project and quit near the beginning, I just didn't care to overcome the obstacles of the project to perhaps face another insurmountable set of issues. It just didn't seem worth it to me.
    And, as a final thought, as I said, I guess I wouldn't blame them - AND - I don't know if I would have been able to be impartial if things were reversed.
    Thanks For Your Response.
    G


    Betty, we had not met at the time I made that comment (and I apologize for having made it, you obviously didn't deserve it), but we DID meet, at the symposium, I sat in the front of the last "how to get published" rotation.
    You know, when I made that comment, I WAS MAD (only for emphasis, not mad now) and not at you personally. I had gone from being a part of a respectful considerate helpful club to becoming embroiled in a corporate backstabbing of incomprehensible proportions (that was how I saw it) of which I would NEVER, EVER allow myself to willingly become a part. I'm a big softy, I cry when I hurt and I cried quite a bit over all of this. It was (is) NOT how I lived my life. At the time I made that comment, I felt like AAW had been stolen from me. I felt like morals and ethics were not a part of the organization I was a part of.
    I'm sure I offended you and I beg your forgiveness.
    G
     
  15. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    I was not offended, just surprised (there you go again, George, ascribing emotions to other people that you have no way of knowing the truth of :) ). You see, I have a choice to be offended or not with whatever comes my way and I chose not to be offended -- life is so much more sweet and interesting that way.

    There is truly no need to apologize, I am not judging you. It's not my right or responsibility to judge you or anyone else.

    And if you were sitting in the front row of the session on writing for the journal, why have I not received an article proposal yet?! Send me an email and let's get started. Now see what you've gone and done, George ... you've set yourself up publicly for delivering the goods ......


    Betty Scarpino, editor, AW
     
  16. davidwalser

    davidwalser

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    Betty,

    An article by George is a great idea! If you spend a few minutes on his website, you'll see the man has done some great work. I'd love to see a step-by-step tutorial on how he makes one of his "OATS" segmented pieces.
     
  17. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Dave, you just upped the ante for George ......



    Betty Scarpino, editor, AW
     
  18. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Responsibility as members of AAW members includes working for the organization.

    taking a role in a local club
    inviting a potential woodturner to visit your shop.
    helping to run a regional symposium.

    communicating with the board is an important responsibility too.
    the board needs the ideas from membership and volunteers for committees.

    Our AAW board became fractured in 2009. Items from executive sessions involving personnel were leaked and members became distrustful of each other and communications broke down. In 2010 this fracture moved into the membership.

    In my view, the fracture has always been more emotion driven than disagreement over decisions or direction. As an organization of artistic and creative people this should be expected.
    Our passion for woodturning brings us together. our passion for friends has moved us apart.

    I think we all have a responsibility to find ways to work together effectively and bridge the divide.

    We have a Symposium coming up in a June.
    Think about what you can do to make that event one to Start the next 25 years. There are many volunteer opportunities at the symsposium.

    If you can't come to St Paul you can still participate:
    Send a Bowl to the AAW Empty Bowl project
    http://www.woodturner.org/sym/sym2011/EmptyBowl.pdf
    Make sure your chapter is represented in "Turning 25 - A Celebration"
    turn a piece for your chapter judging
    http://www.woodturner.org/sym/sym2011/Exhibit/

    happy turning,
    Al
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
  19. George Guadiane

    George Guadiane

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    I would disagree about whether or not you have the "right" to judge, but I appreciate your strength of character in choosing not to.

    Thanks for the kind words and for "helping" me have more work to do;)
    I also do bandsaw segmenting, about which I may demo soon. It would be fairly easy to expand that handout into a more detailed article.

    I'm doing a demo on OATS segmenting in March for our AWA Totally Turning event. I already have an outdated six page handout, and I need to make a third version of my sled before I update the handout (which I will then offer as a PDF on the website for the people who lose theirs), but I could probably do an article on it after that, you know, add pictures and go through the whole process on a single project. So, I'll send the email, but you could consider this an article proposal.
     
  20. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    George, I have been in this game a long time. Long enough to have gained some real friends. And long enough that a few folks I could care less if they ever took another breath. I have also been a juror many times. I have never let my feelings about an artist get in the way of the work. Every juror I have worked with held themselves to the same standard. You shorted yourself by not entering. As for all the stuff that went on? As long as any party agrees to disagree with me then all is cool. The road to the future is open and ready for traffic. And I also will be happy to buy you a beer when we meet.
     
  21. dbonertz

    dbonertz

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    Al, your empty bowl link does not work, at least not for me. I went to the AAW site and could not find it there either. Can you redirect me. I was so looking forward to going to my first symposium and the 25th to boot. However my nephew is getting married on Saturday about five hours from St. Paul in Sioux Falls, So. Dak. Just far enough away to make it impossible to join in the festivities. I am interested in the empty bowl program (whatever that is - sounds like a charity). Thanks for the help.

    Dale
     
  22. George Guadiane

    George Guadiane

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    I'm trying to arrange a trip in February, I hope you'll be around and available then.
    The other stuff??? I believe that you are good to your word, the others, I couldn't/wouldn't ask. I felt like I had gotten a severe beating and had become pretty much untrusting of anyone who used such strong words (including myself). The easiest way to avoid further heartache was to just not take the chance.
    Besides, in at least one instance, I knew of one contest where the judges were, at least self serving. It would be easy, for me, to see them as being willing and able to be vindictive.
     
  23. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    good catch on my error I had cut off the last "f" in my copy/paste
    The link is
    http://www.woodturner.org/sym/sym2011/EmptyBowl.pdf

    you can also get there by going to the symposium page and
    "return to the community" is about the 4th item from the top.

    Every year the local chapters in the Symposium city identify a charity to which AAW members contribute a turning. I hope we fill a tables in the instant gallery with bowls.

    Every year some local chapters collect turnings for the charity and send them with a member driving to the symposium.

    make it a tradition with you chapter.

    -Al
     
  24. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    George, starting at the end of Jan we have the Guild show in Waimea then the turners show in Hilo in March. And the forest industry show in Honolulu in March also I think. so stuff going on. I need to look, but Linda at Dunn Gallery in Kapaau has a show of some wood related thing going on also. When you hit the Big Island and get settled give me a call. 808-884-5585 Beers cold.
     
  25. George Guadiane

    George Guadiane

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    My plan is to spend a day or two on the Big Island, then go to Oahu to do an Antique and Collectibles show... MOST of my Big Island trip will be to sit and sip, and maybe talk a little story:)
     
  26. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    George, if you are only thinking about "only" a day or two on this Big Island then give me some heads up. We are on the very north end of the island. A bit over an hours drive from Kona. I gave you my phone#. I am one easy turner to get ahold of. kelly@jkellydunn.com will give you the easy heads up instead of a call. And talking story? I do think I can handle that.
    I took a look at your website. You have really gotten better with form compared to seeing your work on WOW the first time. Its nice to see a turner progress in form, style and execution. Compared to the first time I saw your work you are coming into a stride of striving for excellance. Good on you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010

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