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Remote Demo pro/con

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Betty Scarpino, Apr 28, 2020.

  1. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    I am doing some research for a journal article on remote demonstrations for local chapters/clubs, specifically the experiences woodturners have had with the organizational aspect: Costs, timeframe, quality, benefits/drawbacks.

    I am looking for viewpoints from demonstrators as well as viewers. Thanks!
     
  2. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    It would cut down on travel time and expense for a demonstrator and save a bit for the chapter. However, for our chapter, the demonstrator would miss out on some great food served before the meeting. ;)
    Edit- Betty, are getting ready to make a slam-dunk?
     
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  3. Robert D Evans

    Robert D Evans

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    I'm speaking as a regular ol' member of the Chattahoochee Woodturners Club in Gainesville, Ga. We had our first online meeting this month. They did it on Zoom. There was a bit of a learning curve but we got through it ok. By the end of the meeting, I think everybody had it figured out.

    I prefer to see the demonstration in person. Doing remote demonstrations can be viewed from the safety of your home but you miss out on the comradery that you have with other turners. I like having dinner and talking with other turners and learning from them. I often learn more during dinner and socializing than I do during the demonstration. I suppose we do what we have to do to stay safe during a pandemic and I appreciate the efforts our club officers have put into doing remote demonstrations. However, I do hope this is a temporary thing.
     
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  4. Michael Nathal

    Michael Nathal

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    We (North Coast Woodturners, Cleveland OH) had our first remote meeting last Saturday, a simple meet and greet followed by a Show & Tell session. We had 65 attendees, about 20% less than our normal attendance, but pretty good for a meeting with no demonstrator. Club members were very enthusiastic and were chomping at the bit to chit chat. The Show & Tell was also much appreciated, usually at an in-person meeting only a few pieces are chosen for the turner to describe. In the remote session, all 45 pieces were described, and a lot of questions and answers were shared. We will have our our first remote demo this coming Saturday. The general feeling is that the demo will be roughly equally informative as an in-person demo. Our biggest loss is the chance for individual hands-on training that we almost always connect to a live demo.
     
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  5. GRJensen

    GRJensen

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    Our club (Bay Lake Woodturners) has had two IRD's ... Alan Zenreich and Cindy Drozda. Both were well-prepared, and the demos went off without a hitch. The only downside I see is the inability to chat one-on-one with the demonstrator.

    Financially, IRD's make a lot of sense for clubs like ours. Though we have about 65 members, we have very low dues, so the budget most often just can't allow for the cost of bringing in a professional demonstrator. The only way we have been able to justify the cost in the past is to schedule a couple of days of hands-on classes. After expenses, including the demonstrator's fee, travel, and lodging, we have been lucky to break even.

    IRD's are much easier to finance, and we expect to schedule two or three each year.
     
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  6. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

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    Remote Demo content can be produced and recorded ahead of time and displayed during the remote, this saves time and streamlines the presentation and provides more time for questions and answers for all attendees. This allows for quality camera work from multiple positions and the person demonstrating can then edit the content and use specific camera angles to display important content of the video and then provide voice over for the demo eliminating machinery and background noise. Digitized handouts can be emailed out to the club attendees the day of the Demo to provide a reminder and provide information for the attendees to review in case they have additional question.
     
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  7. Dave Landers

    Dave Landers

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    There really are two things now that I see...

    First is the Interactive Remote Demo, which many clubs and demonstrators have been doing for quite a while now. That is the demonstrator at their shop, and the club at their meeting place. It is live, interactive, everyone can ask questions, etc... and you have the opportunity to get better camera angles (the demonstrator can setup exactly the best way to show the work, techniques, etc). The club doesn't have to pay for travel, and thus has the opportunity to bring in demonstrators they might otherwise be unable to afford. Disadvantages are the lack of one-on-one chatting with the demonstrator, picking up and examining the demo piece, feeling the grind on the tools, and things like that.

    The last couple months, we've added a new twist to that... the "virtual meeting" which is mostly the same for the demonstrator, but the members are also all in their own homes. You can still do many of the same things (club business, show-and-tell, etc - although some have to be modified). Some things you just can't do the same (wood raffle, etc). And there's no opportunity to gather for dinner, trade pieces, and the like.

    But there are advantages, too. For example, our club's April virtual meeting and demo saw one member who was out of town across the country. And we had a visitor for whom we are his closest club - only 175 miles away (this was the first turning demo he'd ever been able to attend). Neither of these folks would have made it to a "traditional" meeting. And those were just the ones I happened to notice were online.

    I think the opportunity for the future is to blend these two. When we can all meet together again, the "smart" clubs will build on what we've been forced to learn these last couple months. Even with a local / in-person demonstrator, a club could offer a "virtual option". Those able to go to the meeting place will most likely still choose to go - and benefit from the fellowship and hands-on activities. But we can add an option for those who can't make it to the meeting place because they are out of town, can't drive at night, hindered by weather or traffic or distance, etc.
     
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  8. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    This would open the possibility for a noted turner to make several "demos" for future presentation to chapters. A chapter requests a demo, the demonstrator already has the video ready to show. We have videos that show various turning techniques, tools, etc. Why not demos?
     
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  9. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    John, absolutely a slam-dunk! Thanks for the reply. As I learned many years ago, the social aspect (including food) is an important element of being a member in a local woodturning club.

    Indeed money for demonstrator expenses is saved. Should the demonstrator charge the same fee as for a demo where he/she is actually there?
     
  10. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Robert, thanks for replying. It's my observation that even before this pandemic, the number of remote demos were increasing, albeit slowly. I had considered plugging into that platform, but have realized I need the interaction with a live audience to successfully convey my talking points. About a year ago, I stopped traveling for hands-on woodturning demos, but have offered Powerpoint presentations on design and creativity. This format, though, definitely requires audience participation.

    Indeed, we all fervently hope this is a temporary situation.
     
  11. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Michael. So true. We are the type of people who learn best with hands-on instruction. Hope your club's Saturday event goes well. Who is the demonstrator?
     
  12. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Interesting, seems quite similar to everyone watching the same YouTube video at the same time, with the added benefit of the demonstrator being present. I'm wondering about the amount that a club is willing to pay for such a presentation? What's fair?
     
  13. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Hi Dave ... I'm wondering about the cost that clubs are willing to pay -- not necessarily specific amount (although if you can share numbers, that would be welcome), but would/should the demo fee be more or less than having the demonstrator there in person? The club benefits from no travel costs. The demonstrator benefits from no travel time (and hassle).

    What about numbers of attendees? Conceivably, two or three small chapters could band together to watch one demo. How would/should that affect the financial aspect?
     
  14. Mark Wollschlager

    Mark Wollschlager

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    I haven't participated in one of these yet.
    The tech is pretty straight forward, it's what I do.
    In my club's normal meeting we collect a demo fee when there is a physical invited demonstrator.
    In a streaming situation how is this facilitated? Paypal?
    The zoom type configuration give the host the ability to admit participants so there is some sort of gatekeeping.
    Just wondering.
     
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  15. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Hi Mark, for interactive remote live demos for individuals, the demonstrator collects fees, but how that happens, I'll be finding out. For club remote club demos, the club hires and pays the demonstrator directly.
     
  16. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    I have only participated on one remote live thing, and that was with family members. I would expect there to be a lot of interest in demos, world wide that are viewable to the general public. However due to time zones, it could be problematical. I expect Emelliano to chime in here since he is in Hawaii. I have considered doing them, but think I will stay with my videos on You Tube. Main reason would be that people can view them at their convenience. I don't do them to make money though, I do them to educate. That could change though, but I don't expect it to. With a You Tube video, you do get some feedback via questions posted, but not nearly as many as you get when doing a live demo.

    robo hippy
     
  17. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Looking forward to your article.

    Trent Bosch was the first I had heard of doing a remote demo in 2014?
    Lyle Jamieson did his first one soon after Trent. The process has matured a great deal since. A lot of credit goes to Alan Zenreich for sharing his knowledge through symposium presentations and through the lucent woodturners.

    Cons
    Miss pre meeting interactions with club members
    Miss opportunities to get wood or tools from members
    No raffles
    No opportunity to hold pieces from other turners
    No donuts
    Can’t shop at the meetings held in woodcraft stores etc.
    Don’t get to host the visiting turners
    No pre or post meeting dinners
    No jokes from the audience either in the business meeting or the demo
    Demonstrator do not interact with the audience over the internet like they do in person
    Clubs may not get a dvd for their library.
    Limited to view on the screen.
    Club videographers don’t get to contribute or practice.
    Don’t hear the cutting sound of the tools.


    Pros
    Set up and Clean up is faster
    Chairs more comfortable
    Saves room rent for some clubs
    No waiting for the person with the building key.
    Plenty of parking if you are late.
    No itchy eyes from wood dust on the drive home
    No driving
    Big name turners more affordable
    Video is often better coordinated.
    Distant members can visit.
    Demonstrators don’t leave anything at home
    Equipment like compressors, sand blast cabinets, bandsaws, drill presses, vacuum pumps…. More easily available.
    Power points and video clips easily incorporated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
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  18. Doug Rasmussen

    Doug Rasmussen

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    This cartoon pretty well sums up our family experience with ZOOM. The cartoonist left out the participants who are hand holding their phones and iPads, makes you dizzy to view them.

    Click on thumbnail for full view

    zoom resized 2.JPG
     
  19. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Yes, the timezone element is something to consider, especially if those awesome turners from France are part of the equation.
     
  20. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Thanks, Al, the article is scheduled for August issue.

    Thanks a huge bunch for the lists! Stay tuned .... lots to learn, many points I had not considered.
     
  21. Dave Landers

    Dave Landers

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    So I really can't speak directly to fees, but you are right that there is probably some benefit on both sides.

    Our chapter (Rocky Mountain) has been coordinating with other area clubs for a long time - we "band together" with other nearby clubs to share travel costs and hands-on classes etc. Seems to me that sharing a remote demo is philosophically not much different. I guess that would be up to the demonstrator to judge whether they were getting a gig they might not otherwise not, or if instead they were giving away a "buy-one-get-one" deal.
     
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  22. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Betty if you join Lucid Woodturners you will get more answers from demonstrators perspective. @hockenbery Alan taught Lyle how and Alan may have been there first.

    Demonstrators are only there (on camera) less than half a day and from that perspective are paid usual fees at 200 to 400. They can schedule in some cases two IRD in one day. No travel and no lost shop time.

    From a club perspective I have been trying to get our club involved but to say the least things move slow in Mississippi and I could tell a medical story on that. This crisis has opened the door for us. We already had computers and webcams for our meetings and we use vMix for the routing of cameras and mixing video. Sadly when all this is over we have no internet at our meeting place and will have to do this somewhere else or in home as we are now.

    We have had two practice club Zoom sessions and one meeting with 30 of our 54 paid members attending. We are having a Bits and Pieces session Saturday with short demo and on the 14 have Mike Mahoney. As to cost all this is free except Mike's fee and Zoom Pro license (16/month and cancelable anytime) . We spent time on trails among the executive committee and equipment setup. We have at the suggestion of a committee member instituted calls to membership before meetings and also invited our 300 count mailing list. Note our Zoom is limited to 100.

    As to fees we collect them and pay the demonstrator. I have not heard of any pros collecting separate fees, that would not guarantee them a proper payment. We are on Club Express for our website and fees or at least most of them will be collected there and with payment a link will be provided the member or visitor. Cindy Drozda did make a comment that Zoom can collect fees but that I have no info on. Also It is my understanding that any website can add Paypal but that would require another step to get the meeting link out.
     
  23. Roger Wiegand

    Roger Wiegand

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    We had a great live remote Zoom demo from Larry Randolph last week at the ART chapter in Massachusetts. We've also done informal Zoom-based get-togethers, show-and-tell, and shop tours with 20-50 participants.

    I found it a lot easier to see what was going on with the remote demo than in our typical live demos. There was a lot of interaction and discussion. Aside from no round of beers afterwards there was very little downside. Having canned segments that were narrated live eliminated the inevitable glitches of a full live demo while still providing interaction -- Larry's ability to roll back the tape and re-show a technique in response to a question just isn't possible when working fully live.

    I see a big advantage in being able to afford to bring in pro turners for demos several times a year without the expense and inconvenience of travel while still compensating them appropriately and not breaking the bank. We now have a small number of local folks who do many of the demos and taking some of the load off them would be a good thing.

    Obviously a huge advantage for turners who don't live within an hour or two drive of a chapter-- they can participate without undertaking a major trip.
     
  24. Jon Minerich

    Jon Minerich

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    All,
    I have now attend 4 online demos. They were all done professionally and I believe I learned as much online as I would have, had I attended in person. That said, I do miss the camaraderie among the club members.
    Jon
     
  25. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Thank you, Gerald. I intend to talk with Cindy soon and maybe Mike Mahoney. Today, Trent Bosch and Lyle Jamieson shared invaluable insights information.
     
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  26. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    Al, only one correction. I just did one more demo yesterday, 4 these past few weeks. I started my Zoom session one hour before my demo started. The Strait Woodturners had one hour of interaction. They had a meeting, catch up with one another, they had a show and tell. Then I started my demo. I keep going way past my 2 hours. The club members are already home, they do not have to drive back. I asked them, are you guys ok, should I hurry up? No, we are fine... It wasn't easy to convince Joshua about writing the article I wrote for the Journal with Lyle and Alan, he did not think there was enough interest, I probably have all the emails I wrote trying to convince him. To his credit, he finally said yes. Clubs have been very accommodating with the time zones. I woke up once at 5 am for Dave Hulet's club, never again! LOL
    I'm doing Dave Buskell's club in England in June, have to start early, but not before the roosters wake me up.
     
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  27. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Jon, what you wrote seems to be the consensus. Thank you.
     
  28. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    hi Betty,
    You probably have these thoughts in your collection.

    Remote demos and remote club meetings are obviously not tethered to a brick and mortar location but we tend to think of them as serving clubs who are brick and mortar based.

    1. Remote demos can serve the 4 AAW chapters that have common bond membership rather than a locality membership.
    Pen turners, ornamental, segmented, women in turning.

    2. Remote demos can be done for ad hoc groups assembled with some type of sign up.
    Trent Bosch has offered some some demos to his client base. Others may be doing this as well.
     
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  29. AlanZ

    AlanZ Resident Techno Geek

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    Betty,

    Any time you would like to chat about remotes demonstrations, I will be happy to go over the experiences Lauren and I have had with both giving and receiving remote demos.

    I can also talk about how I have helped several demonstrators get up to speed with Interactive Remote Demonstrations (IRDs)
     
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  30. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    You are so right Al. A Chapter club president told me they are going to continue using Zoom at their meetings. They will hold a regular meeting, brick and mortar location, and also use Zoom for the club members that can not attend for whatever reason. One being some older members do not like to drive at night. Others might be out of town, and can still attend via zoom. Lots of other reasons too, maybe you had surgery, not feeling good, on and on... Aloha
     
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  31. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    Hello Betty! I was doing a Zoom session with Mike Peace. We were commenting on how we had to adjust to having most of the attendees muted. On my last demo, I asked my 2 co-hosts to please leave theirs unmuted. It's a little unnerving to say a joke and not hear a laugh. I have started using a second monitor to be able to see the "gallery" of attendees, I now glance at the monitor after a funny line, it is a good feeling to see them smiling, and my 2 co-hosts, I could hear them laugh. I totally understand how your demo needs interaction to be successful. The demo you did for us here on Maui would be perfect for an IRD. I have added a few comments here and there on this thread. Stay safe, Aloha
     
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  32. Randy Heinemann

    Randy Heinemann

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    Based on recent live remote demos by Trent Bosch that I have attended via Zoom I feel they are an excellent resource for demonstration/learning of basic, as well as, more advanced turning skills. design, and carving/decoration of bowls. The live Zoom demo allows attendee questions, which also gives the opportunity to those at the remote demo to address everyday turning questions by a pro. While they could never replace an in-person class which is a hands-on experience with an expert, they have proven very valuable to me. I would suppose the value depends, to some degree, on the comfort level the demonstrator has with the live remote format and the equipment available, but I think the live Zoom demos are great and allow the average turner an inexpensive resource which wouldn’t otherwise be available.
     
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  33. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Women in Turning's executive committee meets by Zoom. They have cancelled the Arrowmont event that was supposed to happen in September, but maybe they could hold something virtual instead. Their FB private group is quite active, so promoting a virtual meet up would be easily done.
     
  34. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Thank you so much Alan. Way back in January last year, Dixie and I benefitted from your help when you coached us for setting up cameras, microphones, lights, etc. for the possibility of making CDs. Both she and I abandoned the idea (variety of reasons), but from your expertise and coaching, I learned a lot, thank you.

    Of course everyone I talk with mentions your valuable technical support to drag us non-tech folks into the new platform of remote demos. In talking with John Kelsey yesterday (by Zoom), we've arranged for my first RILP (remote interactive live presentation) for his local chapters. I'll be doing a Powerpoint presentation on Bowl and Vessel Design. I've given this presentation in person several times and will now learn if it works remotely. John will host and coach and oversee and for letting me use the club as my guinea pig, it's free to them. So ... I'll find out Tuesday night if I'm suited for RILPs.

    If I end up with technical glitches, you'll be on my speed-dial. :cool:
     
  35. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Thanks Randy. Indeed the expense factor is a huge consideration. And, in the same way that the more accomplished, in-person demonstrators rise to the top, that'll happen with remote demos.

    About a year ago, I stopped traveling for demonstrating woodturning, just too much time, hassle, energy so I'd lost interest. I didn't, however, abandon offering presentations on design and creativity. I find that topic compelling enough that I'm willing to give it a try remotely.
     
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  36. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Hi Emiliano! Ah, yes, the feedback from the audience is an essential part of the energy and enthusiasm required to connect. And, thank you for your kind comments -- I had such an enjoyable time with your Maui group!

    I've narrowed my focus to Powerpoint presentations on Bowl/Vessel Design, which requires substantial audience participation, so we'll see how that works. I'll find out Tuesday with the help/coaching of John Kelsey and Stephen Swanson as co-hosts.
     
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  37. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    You will be terrific as usual!

    all the AAW level demonstrators like yourself have learned to play to the camera.
    So that part you have done hundreds of times.

    What’s missing is the eye contact and interaction with people you know in the audience.
    @Emiliano Achaval had suggestions for dealing with this.

    I’ve seen 3 on zoom
    Jack Roberts - demo for Jacksonville club - got invited to learn about zoom to prepare for the Tampa club doing its first zoom demo.
    Rudy Lopez - dry run to check out his video set up prepping for the Tampa Club demo next Wednesday.
    Trent Bosch demo for the Chesapeake woodturners

    it was Jack’s first remote, Rudy’s first rehearsal. They both were comfortable and effective in what they were presenting. I think it all comes down to playing to the camera which they would do in any demo.

    what Trent did to make it a bit personal was to go around the screen saying hi to people he knew.
    Like “ hi Al& Sherry didn’t expect to see you here”
    Then at the end he invited people to stay on and chat for a bit.
     
  38. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Excellent advice (and thank you for kind words!). I had absolutely zero intention of doing remote presentations when I started my research Monday, then when I talked with John Kelsey and for whatever reason, things clicked -- he made it seem so doable, plus he'll coach and moderate. In exchange for "free." What's to lose?!
     
  39. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    @Betty Scarpino The new term, decided on last year I think is IRD, Interactive Remote Demo. With "by Internet" added for the AAW demonstrator listing. The thoughts for the change were that it more clearly defines the development and does not sound like other types of demonstrators.
     
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  40. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    That's something our club members really need to learn, including myself. I will keep you in our short list of future presenters. We loved your time with us here! Aloha.
     
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