• Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details)
  • Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Paul May for "Checkerboard (ver 3.0)" being selected as Turning of the Week for March 25, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Regrind Bowl Gouge

Joined
Nov 9, 2018
Messages
9
Likes
0
Location
Midland, TX
I really botched the sharpening of a bowl gouge and it is swept back too far. How can I regrind it? Do I need to grind the tip down and start over on the wings? This was my first sharpening attempt and since then I have learned better techniques. Just need to salvage this one. Thanks for any and all ideas.
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
469
Likes
244
Location
San Antonio, TX
I’ve lost 2” off my first gouge learning how to grind. It depends how bad it is, how far back did you grind it and why do you feel you need to correct it? Some turn with long ground wings. You can grind the top down, then redo the wings if you like.

Doug Thompson has good video on grinding. I don’t use his angle or his grind, but it thought me a lot.

http://thompsonlathetools.com/sharpening/
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,590
Likes
4,885
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
What I do if the wings are to long is put a line inside the flute wing to wing where I want the wing to end.
I stop sharpening at the line.
The line needs to be redrawn every 3-4 sharpening.
Basically the line gets real thick so I just stop at line edge.

You might want to take a 1/4” off the nose to start if the wings are really long.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
5,435
Likes
2,792
Location
Eugene, OR
I have seen the swept back grinds that go 2 to 3 inches down one side. The purpose of that was for shear scraping. Just keep using the tool and sharpening it as normal, but don't sweep so far to the side. No point in grinding off good metal until it is dull....

robo hippy
 
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
430
Likes
344
Location
Roscoe, Illinois
Knowing what I know about gouges (which admittedly is limited after only a couple of years of turning), I wouldn't think that the wings being swept back too far would be a problem. With the Ellsworth grind they are already swept back a ways and the part of the wings away from the tip don't usually come into play while turning anyway. Just curious . . .
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,321
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
The wings swept back are not a problem at all. I have one that I used to use on my hand mirrors that has wings ground back a long ways. I did a pull cut with the handle almost straight down. I now use a push cut with the lathe in reverse to do that same cut but use a 40/40 grind. I have used the long wing gouge occasionally to turn other things and the wings were not a problem at all.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
799
Likes
562
Location
Jasper, Alabama
John.....Doug Thompson has a great video on how to grind a bowl gouge from the start. It really helped me on sharping gouges.
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,321
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
The 40/40 grind is taught by Stewart Batty. Its ground so that the nose and wings both have a 40 degree cutting angle. My Thompson V the way I sharpen it with the Wolverine jig has a nose that is 55 degrees and the wings ome.out to be around 40. That varies a lot depending on the shape of the flute. Stewart's is hand sharpened but I dont know exactly what shape the flute is. I just grabbed an old Henry Taylor and ground it like he shows and mine looks similar.,
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
3,058
Likes
900
Location
Cleveland, Tennessee
John, thanks for the explanation. FWIW, saw Stewart Batty's video on using the skew. Very informative. Need to review it along with yours. To skew or not to skew; That is the question.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
5,435
Likes
2,792
Location
Eugene, OR
That AAW sharpening video is pretty old, no CBN wheels, so little to no cleaning, no balancing, no truing up the wheel, and they don't change size. Allan Batty's video on the skew chisel is one of the better ones I have seen.

The 40/40 grind works well on Doug and Dave (D Way) flute shapes, and the parabolic flutes. I found it just too pointy or maybe too much like a detail gouge for my style of turning, and use a 45/45. I don't use a swept back gouge at all any more. Don't like the 60 degree bevel for bowls other than for the transition and across the bottom of the bowl. I think the swept back gouges is more for a high shear angle where you cut more with a dropped handle and the wing rather than the nose. I tend to hold the tools more level and cut with the nose.

robo hippy
 

John Jordan

In Memorium
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
506
Likes
965
Location
Cane Ridge (Nashville), TN
Website
www.johnjordanwoodturning.com
That AAW sharpening video is pretty old, no CBN wheels, so little to no cleaning, no balancing, no truing up the wheel, and they don't change size. Allan Batty's video on the skew chisel is one of the better ones I have seen.

That doesn't make the method any less valid though, does it? I still sharpen side ground gouges the way that is shown, and I still teach and use the same way to restore and/or rough shape to a starting place, and they work pretty well for me and thousands of others. And while I do use CBN wheels, they have hardly rendered aluminum oxide wheels obsolete. Lots of folks still use them. I see hundreds of different grinders each year, and the majority still have aluminum oxide wheels-that was not the OP's question: How to regrind his bowl gouge.

I'm pretty old, too, but not quite obsolete. :D


John
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,321
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
the gouge shaping method John teaches in his video is still the one I use. I have a lot of turners come over with gouges ground really bad and want me to fix it. A course aluminum oxide wheel and about 3 minutes and I have it back to what they originally wanted. Then I usually fine tune it on my CBN. Aluminum oxide will be around for a long time. You can buy one for $30 vs $100 or more for CBN so all new turners on a budget are going to use the AO wheels. Of course there are always those new turners with deep pockets who start turning with a $6000 lathe and all the latest gadgets but virtually all the new turners in my clubs come in trying to buy the cheapest possible. Of course we try to steer them toward better equipment if possible.
If you interested in what grinds everyone uses check out this link. I should say this was out before Stewart Started pushing the 40/40 grind. Not sure if it was before Johannes was pushing his convex grinds.
http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
3,058
Likes
900
Location
Cleveland, Tennessee
I second that motion! It's not the parts but the labor rate of the mechanic.
Got a question- I recall seeing a gauge that has several angles cut into it to confirm the angle of a grind. I looked through the Woodcraft catalogue and couldn't find it. Anyone know where I could find one? With all the posts here, I feel that I need to carry my grinding up to another level.
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
469
Likes
244
Location
San Antonio, TX
I second that motion! It's not the parts but the labor rate of the mechanic.
Got a question- I recall seeing a gauge that has several angles cut into it to confirm the angle of a grind. I looked through the Woodcraft catalogue and couldn't find it. Anyone know where I could find one? With all the posts here, I feel that I need to carry my grinding up to another level.

Are you referring to these?

Another way is to adjust the grinding platform to the angle I need, for example 60 degrees, grind the heal of the gouge on the platform. Then use that heal as a guide on the wolverine jig arm for the distance from the wheel and grind the wings. Just don’t make it too pointy, see a picture of one and get similar grind.

Robotest would be a perfect platform for quick angle setup, or you can measure it on a regular platform.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
3,058
Likes
900
Location
Cleveland, Tennessee
No, Fadi. I have all the Wolverine jigs, etc. but was looking to use the gauge to check or modify the grind. What I'm referring to is a flat piece of metal with various notches for the angles. Will be in the shop as soon as it warms up a bit. Need to sharpen my most-used tools.
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
469
Likes
244
Location
San Antonio, TX
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
3,058
Likes
900
Location
Cleveland, Tennessee
That is very close but not the exact one I had seen. That one covers about all the grind angles for just about any tool. It's one of those things you see all the time but hides when you look for it. Fadi, thanks for the link.
 
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
2,432
Likes
1,848
Location
Bozeman, MT
Maybe this is what you have in mind, John. https://www.woodcraft.com/products/angle-checker
I have one, but it gets lost easier than any other gadget in the shop. Personally, I don't find it very accurate for bench chisels and lathe tools. I use a General protractor, like this:
cf17_square_precision.jpg
It takes some practice to figure out where to place the long leg and to measure right at the nose on a gouge, but eventually, you get helpful and accurate results.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
3,058
Likes
900
Location
Cleveland, Tennessee
John, looked through their entire catalogue and didn't see it but I think you are right. Even searched with some relevant words. Others that I thought when nothing showed up were omitted.
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,321
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
Now that I think about it I may have purchased it from Harbour Freight..but then my memory sucks. If I was home on the computer I would look for it.
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,321
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
John. Do a Google search for brass bevel gauge and you will find what I use. Still havent found where I bought mine.
 
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
4
Likes
0
Location
Middletown, NY
I second that motion! It's not the parts but the labor rate of the mechanic.
Got a question- I recall seeing a gauge that has several angles cut into it to confirm the angle of a grind. I looked through the Woodcraft catalogue and couldn't find it. Anyone know where I could find one? With all the posts here, I feel that I need to carry my grinding up to another level.
Is this what your looking for? https://www.teknatool.com/shop/page/8/
006B39B5-C934-4AF4-A40A-07B631DDFFF0.jpeg
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
3,058
Likes
900
Location
Cleveland, Tennessee
That might be it, Dean. Looked John's link, too. Not important that I duplicate the one I saw. Any recommendations from the forum as to the most accurate or durable? I could get an advance on my allowance.
 

Roger Wiegand

Beta Tester
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
789
Likes
914
Location
Wayland, MA
Website
www.carouselorgan.com
So I guess the question is: What is it you're trying to do that you can't do with the current grind? Then what follows is how do you change the grind to make that possible. In general I find the obsession with certain angles and grinds to be just that, an obsession that has very little to do with getting the job done. Because the tool is hand held you can present any grind in a very wide range of angles and orientations, so the particular angle on the tool is largely irrelevant. I don't remember who it was, but we had a demonstrator years ago who made that point by taking each workshop participant's tool in turn and making a beautiful cut with it despite the fact that every one of them was different (many dramatically so) and most were far from perfect executions of whatever idea or model the owner had in mind. The point he made was take the tool you have and learn how to use it. They most all work. Once you know how to use one well than you have a basis for discovering whether a different grind works better or worse for you, or allows you to do things you couldn't do before.
 
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
423
Likes
357
Location
New City, NY
image.jpg I shortened the arm on this inexpensive protractor so that it can be placed on the inside the flute of most of my gouges . I found the Tormek preset angle gauge that I own too difficult to use.
Placing the protractor arm in the flute allows for an easier flute angle reading then the other methods. I may shorten further to accommodate shorter flutes that are typical of older, sharpened down gouges.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
430
Likes
344
Location
Roscoe, Illinois
So I guess the question is: What is it you're trying to do that you can't do with the current grind? Then what follows is how do you change the grind to make that possible. In general I find the obsession with certain angles and grinds to be just that, an obsession that has very little to do with getting the job done. Because the tool is hand held you can present any grind in a very wide range of angles and orientations, so the particular angle on the tool is largely irrelevant. I don't remember who it was, but we had a demonstrator years ago who made that point by taking each workshop participant's tool in turn and making a beautiful cut with it despite the fact that every one of them was different (many dramatically so) and most were far from perfect executions of whatever idea or model the owner had in mind. The point he made was take the tool you have and learn how to use it. They most all work. Once you know how to use one well than you have a basis for discovering whether a different grind works better or worse for you, or allows you to do things you couldn't do before.

After reading all the feedback, I finally came to this conclusion also. Based on the techniques and feedback from the person from whom I learned the very basics of turning when I first started, I believed that it was possible that grinding a small gouge to 45 degrees would improve my technique and results on the insides of bowls. Since then, I have experimented with a 1/2" and 1/4" "irish" ground bowl gouges, my round Easy Wood carbide Finisher, and scrapers I own. I found that I can get better results than I have been through more patience, taking much smaller cuts, and working on my overall technique, so I don't feel the need to change the grind of my gouges anymore. Basically, because I bought a gouge just for that purpose, I now have an extra 1/4" bowl gouge which maybe just means that I will have to sharpen each of those less when I am using them. The bottom line is that any of my existing gouges, scrapers, and carbide tools will give me the results I desire without any changes; just more practice.
 
Back
Top