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"Private" Remote demonstrations

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Emiliano Achaval, Jul 23, 2020.

  1. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I hate deleting posts, but one person while brandishing forum rules conveniently ignored the rule about civil behavior.

    As a reminder, if anyone see a problem post, report it to the moderators. We don't need nor do we appreciate the kind of misguided behavior where someone makes a bad situation worse by weaponizing the forum rules.
     
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  2. Roger Wiegand

    Roger Wiegand

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    Those who rely on DVD sales for income or as a means to get their teaching out there better get with the program; an ever-increasing number of us no longer own any device that will play a DVD.

    Years ago I transferred all of my home videos to DVD thinking that was a semi-permanent solution. Wrong! When the disks started failing I transferred them onto my computer, just in time, as my current computer has no CD/DVD drive. The one that used to be hooked to the TV was banished to storage after it hadn't been used for several years, and thence to the electronics recycler.
     
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  3. Jeff Brockett

    Jeff Brockett AAW Board Member

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    There is an entire page on the communities tab of the AAW website that deals with IRDs. https://www.woodturner.org/Woodturn...rs-Toolkit/Chapter-Remote-Demonstrations.aspx Lots of resources for chapters, individuals or demonstrators who are interested in learning more about how to navigate the IRD landscape. In addition there is a list of demonstrators who are offering IRDs. This list will grow as more demonstrators ramp up their ability to offer woodturners more options to learn. The next addition to this community page will be an event calendar where demonstrators can post additional information. The AAW staff is working on this and it should be available in the near future.
     
  4. GRJensen

    GRJensen

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    Whoa! Never thought about it until I read Roger's comment ... I have a whole stack of DVD's and nothing to play them on! Time to resurrect one of my old laptop computers and hope the DVD player is still operational!
     
  5. Dave Hulett

    Dave Hulett

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    good discussion. I watching (and multitasking) Cindy's demo on carving up burls. Its wonderful having this level of instruction available in my living room. I now have to consider how much to budget for these each month. LOL!
     
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  6. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    What a lot of people are doing is a digital download. Simple, easy, fast. No more waiting for your dvd to arrive. You pay, you receive a download link and off you go. I do not a dvd player anymore! ANd I have several VHS woodturning movies, museum pieces now...
     
  7. Michael Nathal

    Michael Nathal

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    External DVD drives that plug into a USB port are available for about $30
     
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  8. Glenn Lefley

    Glenn Lefley

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    I had to hunt high and low for a DVD player in an old moving box. Never did find the remote, but can play my woodturning dvds, just can’t pause them without the damn remote!
     
  9. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    There is always something! I remembered I bought an external dvd writer player for my Macbook. It has a USB connector. My new MacBook has 4 USB-C ports. So now I need an adaptor.
     
  10. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    I used a program called Handbrake that lets you transfer DVD's to your computer. You can do that to most DVD's, some have a copyright thing that wont let you do it. The DVD's that I have that are woodturning related, I feel it is OK to put them in your computer, I paid once for them...
     
  11. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    I tried to digitize some of the club library a few years ago and ran into that copyright thing. What that means is that you hen have to buy a digital version . By the way CD's and DVD's do deteriorate just not as fast as tape did.

    Oh and one more thing if you go digital you better buy a backup drive or thumb drive because some day that computer will also go toes up and where will you be then?
     
  12. Tom Gall

    Tom Gall

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    Geez! I don't have any DVDs......only CDs. I thought I was good to go! :eek:
     
  13. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    i don’t trust the cloud either but it is the way of the future.

    also keep that backup in another building. Or at least another room.

    back in the dark ages
    I got a call from a friend in computer ops (big IBM Mainfrain) one morning.
    He said the chilled water pipe broke and flooded our disc drive which caused a head crash and the disks were literally in pieces. They had a spare drive to bring on line but our backup disc pack was stored on top of the drive and got wet too.
    Crossing fingers worked the back up wasn’t damaged and our day old disc was back on line within a few hours.
    We had a lot of stuff on backup tapes but we still would have lost years of work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  14. Doug Rasmussen

    Doug Rasmussen

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    As was already mentioned, USB stand alone DVD drives are relatively inexpensive. So that's not a real problem.

    I don't know or have experience with the disk failing issue you mention. I have had experience with older disks that won't play on my later computers which I believe is more of an operating system issue than a disk failure.

    IRD's are certainly not a solution for retailers as a replacement for DVD sales.

    I wonder how pricing of IRD's will play out. Will it be based on number of participants or a flat rate (or maybe even free)? A four person event for two hours at $10 per participant would hardly be worth the presenter's time, same IRD with 100 participants at $10/per would be $500 per hour.
     
  15. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    This has been covered in other IRD posts but the new personal IRD is a new puppy and may disappear soon if not financially feasible. The better presenters such as Cindy and Trent will make it in the open market. Now as that that 100 people , not gonna happen in the personal market. The IRD at club level is like any other demo the club pays fee and pockets any excess unless the want to give a tip to presenter as Our club did on one we made over 200 extra. For club level the club takes the risk and is responsible for promo and pricing.
     
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  16. Dave Hulett

    Dave Hulett

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    our club has now received 17 IRD's over the past 2 1/2 years costing between $200 and $350 each. Our average attendence (pre covid-19) was about 45 people so that averages out to between $4 and $8 per person. So nationally known demonstrators are charging what I prefer to call a "public interactive remote demo (PIRD) for $10 is a good deal. Particularly since you are given the ability to watch a recording of it soon after the live showing. Those who are a little computer savy can download the recording to their own computer and then refer to it when you try and implement the techniques demonstrated. I love it!
     
  17. Doug Rasmussen

    Doug Rasmussen

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    Hmmmm.... this is confusing Dave. Definitions defining similar, but a bit different type events

    The topic of this thread is "private remote demonstrations" using ZOOM with individuals. That's where my curiosity about cost per participant came in. To me that would be a private IRD, as in PIRD needing a ZOOM invitation. But you would call it a Public IRD???

    Your club has done 17 IRD's, were they done with ZOOM? If not with ZOOM, how were they interactive?

    I've participated in commercial product webinars where viewers could interact with the presenter by typing questions on our computers as the presentation continues. The presenter could choose to answer the questions at the time asked or at the end of his presentation (or not at all). Is that an IRD?
     
  18. Dave Fritz

    Dave Fritz

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    It's going to take some time to develop a common language and understandings as we move into yet another mode of communication. Nothing is forever. I'm told if the Civil War had been photographed in color it would be all gone by now. I'm pleased that the AAW is taking this on as a task by publishing information about the offerings available to clubs and individuals. I have confidence they'll have it figured out soon and it will be with us well into the future.
     
  19. Dave Hulett

    Dave Hulett

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    Started to respond to Doug yesterday then my internet went down... all day! To answer Doug's questions:
    Our club started receiving IRD's almost 3 years ago. We use Zoom for all of them. They are very interactive (ie: clip of Jim Echner IRD to Central Arkansas Woodturners) . Up until earlier this year they were generally just called Remote Demonstrations. But as the community of demonstrators grew I suggested that we add the word "Interactive" which is the key component differentiating them with youtube videos. It stuck and earlier this year and has been adopted by all. It was Trent Bosch who pioneered the idea just a few months ago of offering IRD's to anyone who paid a $10 fee. As opposed to one broadcast to a single WT club. Trent calls his Personal IRD's but I think that is misleading in that anyone can sign up, and 100 people it's anything but personal. Hence, I have suggested to the community that we call these Public IRD's.

    perhaps single point ones to a club could be called "Club IRD's. but I don't think it's nessesary. Although there is a critical difference between the IRD's broadcast to a club in the past and the newer Public IRD's. In the past the Club IRD the demonstrator one had a single internet connection, the one to the club's meeting place. Simple. But with Public IRD's a demonstrator could have 100 people, all with a separate connection. (Cindy had 127 on her's last week.) This adds complication. A demonstrator needs a co-host to monitor the questions that come up through the chat.

    Hope that helps.
     
  20. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    I think I like @AlanZ suggestion that we do not need to change the name of the sort of agreed IRD name just because who is attending. Funny, I called mine yesterday "private", Trent calls his personal and I heard of public IRD too. Dave: we better come to an agreement fast! LOL
     
  21. Tom Gall

    Tom Gall

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    No matter what you call it ..... it was a very informative and enjoyable demo. Good job!
     
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  22. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    When you get down to it what is the point of different names when most turners and especially nonturners will have NO idea what it means. For this reason when I start a post on IRD I define the term. I think the point we have to get across to the public , OK stop right there. The overwhelming majority of turners do not read these forums and do not know what we are talking about to start with so the term will need constant definition. Now back to the point we need to convey is that this is a demo over video allowing you to ask questions and get ANSWERS.
     
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  23. Timothy Allen

    Timothy Allen

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    The Interactive Remote Demonstration is largely the same, the difference we are talking about here is the nature of the audience -- how it is assembled and how they collectively compensate the demonstrator.

    An important aspect, of course, would be the size of the audience (and thus the necessity of a co-host to moderate the questions) -- the range might be from a truly private IRD (one-on-one) up to the recent AWS Virtual Symposium where some of the IRDs apparently had 1000's of people in the live audience! But they are all essentially the same thing, Interactive Remote Demonstrations....
     
  24. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    Thank you Tom!!
     
  25. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    I believe we have reached market saturation. I was talking to a friend, a well-known turner that is also offering private remote demos. He is going through the same situation. On my first private IRD, that is not to a club, I had about 55 attendees. On my second one 48. On my third one 23. Tomorrow I'm doing one and to quote Alan Z, I might have to start offering to pay people to attend. When I started IRD 4 years ago, there were just a few of us. I have stopped counting, judging by lucidturners.com there could be over 50 maybe more turners offering demos remotely. Even offering a different topic: boxes with hand chased threads failed to attract turners. I will be concentrating on club IRD's. Since most clubs are still offering IRD's, people are becoming tired of attending too many, paying club dues, and $10 more for other demos. I would like to hear from those of you that have attended some clubs and private IRD's. I know I have become selective...
     
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  26. Roger Wiegand

    Roger Wiegand

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    I spent a while attending so many IRD's that I wasn't spending any time turning. An embarrassment of riches, as it were. All of a sudden instead of a "big name turner" demo being a once or twice a year thing it became possible to do 4-5 a week, with the added lure of actually being able to see what was going on. So yes, I've cut back a lot; I like to actually try some of the new things I learn while watching demos and that takes a lot more time than watching the demo.

    Just now I'm waiting for a bowl to crack so I can try installing some of my new pewas.
     
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  27. Dennis Weiner

    Dennis Weiner

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    @Emiliano Achaval

    As the Zoom administrator of my club, I too have watched attendance decrease in both club meetings and IRD attendance. As a demonstrator, you are competing in a very narrow and shrinking market. Turners have seen most of the topics, so you have to offer something very unique to demand compensation. It is very difficult to compete against companies like Record Power which sponsor free demonstrations. Last night, I attended Theo’s free demo where attendance exceeded 400 participants. The high attendance was probably due to the expanded worldwide woodturner pool and the uniqueness of the topic(8 point turned star). To compete against
    “free” and the alert covid marketing of Record is challenging to say the least. I still believe that when the pandemic is over and it’s macro economy, IRDs will be the dominant.
     
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  28. Mark Jundanian

    Mark Jundanian

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    My thoughts:
    The more IRD's I have attended the less exciting the experience has become for me.
    While the camera angles can often be superior, surprisingly often the videography is not that good. So that's sort of hit or miss.
    There is little or no camaraderie to be had with the experience, so it tends to emphasize the isolation I've been feeling.

    You can't pause or rewind a live IRD, and the actual interaction available at the ones I have attended has been minimal. So I feel less inclined to give up the prime hours of the day to watch.
    Lastly I have become less interested in demonstrations in general. I don't know all there is to know, but I have become less interested in learning processes that I am fairly confident I will not pursue, at least in the foreseeable future.
    I am looking forward optimistically to Omaha. I will attend some demos, but I am more excited for the vendor displays, the IG, the auction and the opportunity to rub shoulders (socially distanced, of course). :)
     
  29. Donna Banfield

    Donna Banfield

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    Something I expected would happen.

    I compare this to the beginning 'hobby' woodturner who decides to begin selling at craft fairs. Based on the accolades the turner gets from family and friends, naively believes sales will be bountiful. The reality is not like Kevin Costner's movie, Field of Dreams, where he is told, "If you build it, they will come." In the woodturning version it would be, "If you make it, it will sell." And for many of us who have lived that 'dream', we've learned the cold hard truth. There were a LOT of those weekend craft fairs, and even more turners selling their work for barely what it would cost to replace the wood and materials. Market for woodturned items is saturated; the consumer, if they buy, will pay the lowest dollar amount. Turners who have been doing it for years, and have exceptional quality utilitarian work, cannot compete when the booth in the next aisle is selling a 10" bowl for half of what they are charging. For every bowl the seasoned veteran sells, the other booth is selling 10 of them. Niche turners may survive, because they have also learned to diversify.

    So in the IRD world, turners who have a skill that can cross-over to attract other viewers, not necessarily woodturners, (i.e., diversify) may still find this market profitable.
     
  30. GRJensen

    GRJensen

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    In the 10 years since I started turning, there has been a virtual explosion of turners doing IRD's and Youtube videos. A good share of them have no idea what it takes to do a compelling video presentation, and their shot selection, camera work, continuity, etc. drive me up the wall (I spent 28 years producing television content).

    My Youtube subscription list is shrinking, and I am buying into fewer IRD's the last few months because I would rather spend my time in the shop actually doing/creating something.
     
  31. Donna Banfield

    Donna Banfield

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    This is a real issue. I reached that point sometime around 2007/2008 with woodturning forums. I discovered that I was spending several hours every day visiting a dozen forums, reading, responding or starting threads. I eventually realized I could spend my time on the internet reading about woodturning, or spend it in the shop doing woodturning. But not both. So I began to selectively pare down my reading list, and now visit two. And only one on social media.

    I think another aspect is that many club members are there not for the turning, but the socializing. And despite the attraction, the IRD’s have not been able to replace the social aspect that kept bringing members to club meetings. Like someone posted earlier in this thread. IRD’s are here to stay, but it remains to be determined to what degree, and who remains viable in that virtual world.
     
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  32. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Demonstrators who wear helmet-mounted cameras need to be taken out back and flogged. Apparently, they are clueless that they are giving the viewer motion sickness. I have seen too many IRD's with bad lighting, poor camera work, slow internet connections, and seemingly unrehearsed and unscripted.

    Your observation is exactly what I have seen at my club's meetings. We have a number of activities such as show and tell and the monthly challenge at the beginning of the meeting. Then we have a break for socializing before the evening program. During the break about half of the members leave. This is a rather recent phenomenon that I first noticed two or three years ago. We are a large club with over 200 members and quite a few beginners. Perhaps our programs aren't what they are wanting to see.

    At the beginning of the pandemic, the IRD's were a welcome relief from the feeling of isolation. I guess that I've become battle fatigued by the prolonged abnormality of social distancing and feel "zoom-saturated" after all these virtual club meetings, virtual symposium, virtual private demos, virtual doctor visits, virtual meetings with our financial advisor ......
     
  33. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    I think Donna has hit the nail on the head. Our club started with our own IRD for two meetings with average attendance, Then Mike Mahoney with 58 and Lyle with about 35. and on down til we had Cindy in August with only 20. I do believe this show a lack of interest in video communication in such a glut and the need as Donna said for socializing. Now this is not to say that IRD is going away but there will be a period of shake out after which there will be the cream of the crop available on a much less frequent basis and "normality" will return.
     
  34. Karl Loeblein

    Karl Loeblein

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    Spoiler alert. Most anyone can record videos of anything that’s playing on their screen regardless of the Zoom host settings. There’s even software built into Windows 10 for doing this (Windows key +g) assuming your pc has a decent video card. Gamers have been making screen recordings like this for years. I am not suggesting anyone do anything morally wrong here so bare with me.

    My suggestion to IRD demonstrators... if you plan on charging the same or higher fee for a recorded IRD then consider adding something extra like more footage with your recordings. Like many movie companies do to get people to buy their DVDs. This extra stuff might give people reason to buy the recording instead of making their own recording of the IRD. For instance, I would be tempted to buy some extra footage from Emiliano after watching his excellent IRD.
     
  35. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    Also, I think that a lot of people are going back to work, we have learned how to live with the Covid virus, we are not isolated, at home, bored and looking for something to do. When I started doing IRD, you could count the few of us doing it with one hand and have fingers to spare. We now have 700 members at lucidwoodturners.com Having too many turners doing IRD's is not a bad thing, to quote Alan Z.
     
  36. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I'll "bear" with you, but perhaps this is the wrong venue for the other kind of "bare". :D
     
  37. Tom De Winter

    Tom De Winter

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    Isn’t English fun!
     
  38. Karl Loeblein

    Karl Loeblein

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    I will not admit to what I was wearing when I wrote that msg. Lol
     
  39. Russ Braun

    Russ Braun

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    I rarely look at YouTube videos and always enjoy demonstrations done by informative, skilled turners. I can see how watching them all the time would dilute their impact! I agree with Roger and Donna, Woodturning is so you can get away from the computer; turn that IPad off and get segmenting (come into the light, lol)!!
     

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