1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. ATTENTION FORUM MEMBERS!

    Guest, if you have not yet updated your forum bookmark to a secure log in connection, please delete your unsecure book and add the following secure bookmark: https://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php

    You can dismiss this notice by clicking the X in the upper right of the notice box.

    Dismiss Notice

Life's Little Lessons

Discussion in 'Getting Started' started by Bill Currier, May 11, 2020.

  1. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    1) Starting practice with a 1/4" figured wood isn't a good idea.
    2) Figured wood together with dull tools is an even worse idea.
    3) Sharpen / touch up *first*.
    4) White oak is OK ... except that catches can tear chunks from the open grain.
    5) Watch a few videos on sharpening ... Whoops ... my spindle gouges were still blunt-ended.
    6) An Alan Lacer video later, I had reasonably-shaped, sharp tools. Much better!
    7) Hard maple is your friend.
    8) Practice, practice, practice. And then try something deliberate.

    All to produce this very humble little bobbin. Nothing usable, mind you, but progress is progress ...

    57B3E3EC-7F1B-4757-9F89-D198155D38EE.jpeg
     
  2. Robert D Evans

    Robert D Evans

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Location (City & State):
    Hoschton, GA
    Nice bobbin. It's a learning process and I Iearn something new on every project. Usually, how to fix something I did wrong.
     
    Charles Cadenhead likes this.
  3. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    Bobbin #2 - getting closer to the target.

    New lessons:

    1) Blanks either need to be longer or I need a spacer between the screw chuck and blank ... I think I'll opt for the latter.

    2) Predrilling for the screw chuck can be fussy. Precision Machine uses a 3/8" screw. 3/8" is too loose. 1/4" (which is what they recommended in the instruction page included with the chuck) is way too tight. 5/16" worked.

    3) I made a template to mark various points and depths and used calipers for the first time. That helped a lot.

    4) I need to work on smooth transitions between beads and coves. I'm leaving a line and scraping it out isn't the answer.

    A5C53547-6A2A-451E-86A2-6FD08588A890.jpeg
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Robert D Evans

    Robert D Evans

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Location (City & State):
    Hoschton, GA
    Always work downhill. When you get to the bottom of the cove, stop. Do not try to go back up the other side. Just come in from the other direction and meet at the bottom.
     
  5. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    Thanks, Robert. I'll be knocking off a few tomorrow too, for practice. Basically, I'm ironing out an approach to turning out a hundred or more of these in hard maple.

    The cove is all downhill (to the center, anyway) from the bead. I've been approaching them separately, but will work on making it a single motion.
     
  6. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    6,491
    Location (City & State):
    Lakeland, Florida
    Home Page:
    If the piece in the photo is what you want. And you are making hundreds
    I would turn multiples from one long blank between centers with a parting cuts in between the bobbins.
    I would saw through the deep parting cuts.

    when I turn hollow ornaments balls I do 2 or 3 from the same blank. Saves wood and goes more quickly than doing a blank for each. In the napkin ring demo I do 3 napkin rings from one blank. I would do 4 or 6 in my shop.

    You can see how I do these in a demo
    three center turned Napkin Rings -

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys4tMzwh7jE
     
  7. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    Wow, Al - your skill is amazing ...

    I initially tried a longer spindle with multiples, but immediately ran into a stability issue as these are only 1.4" in diameter, with the bottom of the center cove appx. .75". Granted, I have a bad intersection between insufficient turning skill and insufficient sharpening skill, but I do intend to try again when I get to hardwood.

    As far as drilling and chucking them individually, all of them will ultimately have to be lead weighted and balanced, the first set being 85 grams, so the overhead in drilling individual blanks isn't wasted. Tentatively, I envision weighting with lead shot, sealing that in place with hot melt, then plugging with a wood plug, finish to be wax only. Weights have to be consistent within a gram or so.

    Approaching this as a production exercise, I'm trying to iron out the processes for blanking, drilling, mounting, marking, turning, initial finishing, weighting, plugging, and final finishing. I feel as though I'm perhaps 25% of the way along the path. Returning to your suggestion, the blanking and turning is by no means finalized. I'm also considering custom making a couple of shaped finishing scrapers to assist with the final uniformity.

    Thanks for weighing in!

    I should mention that my latest effort (picture) is a rough approximation of what I'm after. The design is based on a very refined example, but with dimensional changes that relate to the capacity of the bobbin and the way the fiber is attached, rolled, and adjusted.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  8. Robert D Evans

    Robert D Evans

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Location (City & State):
    Hoschton, GA
    I'm just curious. What is this thing you're making 100's of that must be weigh precisely 85 grams?
    Why the precise weight?
     
    Charles Cadenhead likes this.
  9. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    These bobbins are used for Japanese braiding, traditionally silk, though modern hobbyists have adapted the techniques to other materials. Bobbins of this type are used on several types of braiding stands (e.g., Marudai, Takadai) and are most often found in two sizes, small (the ones I'll be making are small), and large. The small size is most commonly used in 3 weights: 70, 85, and 100 grams. Given that some patterns may involve using 60-100 bobbins in a single setup and that quality bobbins can cost up to $8 each, the numbers start to look pretty hefty if one wants to accumulate a variety of weights and sizes.

    The weight controls the tightness of the braid. Counterintuitively, lighter bobbins make a tighter braid, all things being equal.

    See this Wikipedia article for an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takadai
     
  10. Dean Center

    Dean Center

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,029
    Location (City & State):
    Bozeman, MT
    Bill,
    If I'm seeing the tamas correctly in the wikipedia photo, they have a slanted inside edge, with a bridging flat between them. By comparison, the prototypes you've shown have nice rounded beads and nice rounded coves, with continuous transitions. Will something nicely rounded serve the purpose?

    If not, you will need to adjust your technique to achieve the other shape. (Please forgive me if this is stuff you already know.) The usual spindle cuts of cove and bead are a combination of raise (the handle), roll, and slide. With a slant, there is no roll. Varying the speed of the raise relative to the rate of the slide creates slants of narrower or wider configuration. The flat is made with a shear cut, with all slide, or alternately with a peeling cut, possibly with a parting tool. There is really no transition between the slant and the flat on the pictured tamas--the two cuts just meet.

    Have you weighed your homemade tamas of the desired size? Maybe they're already close to the desired weight. You may be limited in the choice of woods by surface characteristics or tradition, but some woods are substantially denser than others and choosing a different wood might allow you to omit the weighting part of production. The Wood Database has information on the density of different woods. https://www.wood-database.com/wood-finder/

    Al Hockenbery can give you good help on production turning, and has the magical ability to provide nice pictures with arrows showing the cuts that I can only I describe. I will also suggest you check out Nick Cook's videos and demos. He's very adept at efficiently producing small spindle products that sell well.
     
  11. Dean Center

    Dean Center

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,029
    Location (City & State):
    Bozeman, MT
    PS
    A screw chuck would not be the most typical mounting for such a project. You can do it just fine between centers, which will also be a lot faster since you don't have to drill for the screw chuck. If you still have to drill for weighting, you could start between centers, turn a tenon on one end and mount in a scroll chuck for drilling--much more secure than a screw chuck in this setting.
     
  12. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,876
    Location (City & State):
    Nebraska
    The wood bobbins will tend to change their weight and size slightly from winter to summer depending on your location. I would assume the wood is used to go along with the frame work of the equipment, if you wanted precision weights you could turn a polymer like Delrin which is available in different colors or go with another decorative type polymer which would have a consistent weight and shape. I have seen several similar type weaving systems and they use different colored bobbin weights to readily identify the different colored threads/cords being wove into the item. You could also stabilize the wood bobbins with a resin or seal the wood to slow moisture gain and moisture loss from seasonal changes.
     
  13. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    Dean, people do make tama in various shapes, but the Japanese shape in the included picture works best. These are lifted, moved, and placed hundreds of times while making a braid, and they knock into one another constantly. Any projections or angles tend to catch threads.

    My first though was to turn a tenon and use a 4-jaw chuck. But I haven't bought one yet! The screw chuck works pretty well, and I do have to drill a hole anyway (albeit a larger one). Still, eliminating one drilling step would be faster. I may go back to centers.

    Although I will ultimately make some in hard maple, I have looked into denser woods. What I've shown are test pieces made of whatever scrap I have lying around just to work out the process. The last one was from a 2x4. Maple is about .650 - .750 grams/cc. Drilled, and before weighting, a tama will likely come out to less than 30 grams. It's also inexpensive. There's definitely benefit in denser woods as the interior space available for weighting is limited without resorting to weighting the ends, it's all a matter of cost and availability.

    Tungsten would be the ideal filler, but it's 15x - 20x the cost of lead! Usually 70 gram tama can be made with steel for the weight, which is the cheapest option. Denser woods may allow for steel in the 85's.

    Here is a well-shaped, Japanese-style tama:

    E2F84921-1689-4FD7-ADC7-423A5134372C.jpeg
     
  14. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    6,491
    Location (City & State):
    Lakeland, Florida
    Home Page:
    I weighted a series of lamp bases a long time ago. Used led shot 7 or 8.
    Mixed the shot with epoxy and put the mixture in a recess in the lamp base.

    for your application you can determine how much shot to add for a desired weight.
     
  15. Robert D Evans

    Robert D Evans

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Location (City & State):
    Hoschton, GA
    It sounds like a fun project. I bet once you figure out exactly what you want and get the procedures down, you can mass produce them pretty quickly. The 1st one will take you 2 hours. The last one will take you 10 minutes.
     
  16. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    LOL! You're probably right.
     
  17. John Torchick

    John Torchick

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,630
    Location (City & State):
    Cleveland, Tennessee
    Interesting.
     
  18. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    It occurs to me that it's an interesting exercise to have a narrow focus when practicing as I've been. I'm not sure I would retain quite the same memory of mistakes and correction if I were following a less structured path.

    In any event, today's little lessons, starting with the plain stupid ones:

    1) Disengage the spindle lock ...
    2) Don't leave the knockout rod in the spindle ...

    On the subtler side, I went back to turning between centers today, and:

    3) A catch at the end of the piece, even a relatively small one, is more prone to tearing out chunks of material when turning between centers vs. on the screw chuck. It may be that I'm applying too much tailstock pressure, but I don't think so.
    4) Turning between centers on small items requires a small tool rest! (Which I don't have.) Trying to use the stock 12" rest was a pain in the neck.
    5) It was easier to get the shape I want when turning between centers, but the issues created by #4 above made getting any kind of decent surface finish very difficult.

    So, I think I'll try a couple of longer spindles (thanks, Al) and try turning some multiples. I'll stick with scrap wood for now as results are still too rough. I had a few half-decent pieces today in terms of overall shape, plus I've pretty much eliminated the sharp transition between bead and cove, but the odd runback marred them. (It was the tool rest position ... ya, that's it ... wasn't me ...).

    I hope any other newer turners find the odyssey useful. Don't get discouraged!
     
  19. Robert D Evans

    Robert D Evans

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Location (City & State):
    Hoschton, GA
    Keep at it Bill. You'll get it. Just keep turning those 2x4's into landscape mulch. Before long, you'll be knocking those bobbins out with a skew while blindfolded. Ok, maybe not blindfolded.
     
  20. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    How could I not use 2x4s when Powermatic was so kind as to use them in their packing material? Now, if they'd just send along some hardwood ...
     
  21. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    Improving somewhat ... This has no tearout - zero. The finish had no toolmarks to speak of. I sanded to 400 and finished with a carnauba stick and paper towel.

    All with a roughing gouge (I started with a square pine blank) and a single bowl gouge. And pretty fast. Not to spec yet, but getting closer. I cut off the drive end off the lathe with a saw rather than using a parting tool. Much better (thanks, Al). I went to Woodcraft yesterday to get some hard maple dowel stock ... out of stock! But I do plan on trying multiples and cutting them. If I have to, I'll buy 8/4 and rip out my own square stock.

    T'other day beads were easy, coves were problematic. Today, just the opposite, especially beads curving left.

    I practiced some sidegrain work, too. For 5 minutes, I was doing beautiful scooping strokes with a bowl gouge. And then couldn't do it without a catch to save my life. I did work out turning the blank round, though.
    EB4E9661-F861-4E76-BC71-3F88A7034BAF.jpeg
     
  22. Robert D Evans

    Robert D Evans

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Location (City & State):
    Hoschton, GA
    This is the perfect project to practice with nearly all of your tools. Beads and coves and parting off. Make a story board and using the parting tool and calipers mark your debths. Then just connect the dots.
     
    hockenbery likes this.
  23. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,876
    Location (City & State):
    Nebraska
    A freshly sharpened round nose scraper would be an easy tool to use for turning the bobbins.
     
  24. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    6,491
    Location (City & State):
    Lakeland, Florida
    Home Page:
    if you are exceptionally talented with a scraper it could work fine. It would certainly shape the cove well.

    It is my experience that a gouge or skew will leave a much better surface than a scraper.
    On softwood a scraper is likely to need 80 or 120 grit to start sanding
    A spindle gouge surface 220 or 320
    A good skew surface 320 or 400
     
    Emiliano Achaval likes this.
  25. Rob Fridenberg

    Rob Fridenberg

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2018
    Messages:
    72
    Location (City & State):
    Novi, Michigan
    I bought cheap 3ft poplar dowels at Menards - perfect for cutting into small sections and working on beads and coves! I also used it for making a prototype handle before going to the good wood!
     
  26. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    I was thinking dowels originally because I thought could hit my largest diameter target - 1.4" - easily. Theoretically, anyway ... that requires very precise centering with little to no room for error. I did find one source for 1-5/8" dowels, but at that point I'd be doing some roughing anyway. So I'm not so sure about dowels anymore.

    The center section of these bobbins is exactly 3/4". A scraper might be a way to finish to final shape. I may make one to fit the cove exactly.

    This seems to be developing along the following lines: 12" blank, 1-5/8" to 1-3/4" in diameter (or square). Rough to 1.5" diameter. Mark in 2" segments using my template. Use parting tool to get within 1/8" or so of the cove depth. Rough out cove. Turn beads with spindle gouge to near final shape and blend with cove. Finish cove with a scraper. Sand & finish (will be wax only). Cut individual bobbins to final length on table or bandsaw. Drill, weight, plug, and finish ends. Repeat (and repeat, and ...).

    Al, I was amazed at the finish the gouge left on my latest example. I upped the lathe speed to about 1600 or so and slowed down the cuts. What a difference! The last skim cuts were very, very fine. If anything, I may have lessened the final surface with sanding. I did have to sand out a couple of minor tool marks, though, as well as the final round off at the top of the beads.
     
  27. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    6,491
    Location (City & State):
    Lakeland, Florida
    Home Page:
    You have gotten the benefit of a cutting tool. Very little sanding...
    The more you do the quicker they go but also the surface gets better.
     
    Bill Boehme likes this.
  28. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    I finally got around to getting some hard maple. It helped that Woodcraft had just about everything in the store (with the usual brand exclusions) on sale, including wood, so I picked up a piece of 8/4. I ripped a bit of it into 2" square blanks, 13" long. It centered easily and roughing it round still left it oversize (target 1.4"). I marked it up into 6 pieces and turned away ...

    The photo shows 4 of the resulting pieces. One I lost by cutting incorrectly to one of my marks. Another was lost when I cut the "finished" pieces free from the blank. Still, a good enough for this go-around, I think, and the lessons learned will reduce the problems on the next blank.

    Among the lessons are that my markup and initial cuts are hurting my final results. I've been marking the start and end of beads and the center of the cove (all pieces on the blank at once). I then used a parting tool to cut to depth at each of those points, then used a gouge to finish the beads, cut the cove and try to make a decent transition. As a result, I've found it very difficult to make the transition from bead to cove the way I want it, because the bead terminates abruptly, and the cove winds up too flat and too deep, basically because I've brought the parting tool all the way to the center depth, which makes the immediately adjacent slopes too deep.

    The whole thing is an attempt at what turns out to be too cookie-cutter an approach with too many disjointed steps. As I have the mechanics of beads and coves under rudimentary control, I think I need to try bringing things back to simply turning the basic shape then refine to final dimensions.

    Anyway ... some progress. These samples are a bit on the rough side, but would actually be usable.

    C77DF854-C791-49D7-B343-BA966D5B4CF1.jpeg
     
  29. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,876
    Location (City & State):
    Nebraska
    You could sneak up on your smaller diameter dimensions by using a set of calipers and leave some room for final shaping and sanding which gives you the opportunity to fine tune your cove angles and basic shape. If you are going to make these all the same shape and size you can cut some gauges from thick card board or thin plywood to quickly check the dimensions of your large diameter and small diameter dimension, one gauge/template can have both dimensions on it one on each end. This will speed up your process and eliminate second guessing on your cuts. A third gauge/template can gauge the length and contours of the bobbin, you could also build this into a three sided gauge/template to make all your measurements with one tool.
     
  30. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,191
    Location (City & State):
    Maui, Hawaii
    Home Page:
    I would never tell somebody to do that bobin with a scraper. I would say, keep practicing, you will have to spend less time sanding. I agree with Al, a much better surface can be achieved with a skew or a gouge.
     
  31. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,876
    Location (City & State):
    Nebraska
    A fresh burr on a scraper can provide a fine finish if you let the burr do the work, if you use the scraper like a roughing gouge with heavy pressure on the tool you will end up with a poor finish. The wood species, hardness and grain orientation will also determine the quality of finish left by any particular tool used, how you present the cutting tool to the grain orientation and the pressure applied makes a difference, a freshly sharpened tool and lite touch goes a long ways when making final finish cuts on any work piece. Softer woods usually require a shear cutting angle to attain a clean cut of the wood fibers, with the photos shown above it looks like maple in the first images switching over to pine in a later image, these two wood types will require different tools to attain a good quality surface. The other variable is wood moisture content, is the wood green or is it dry this will impact the attainable surface quality by a particular cutting tool. A round or curved nose scraper is the easiest tool for a beginning turner to use to attain a smooth transition at the bottom of a curve where you have two directions to meet up when using a spindle gouge or skew. Switching from left hand to right hand downhill turning with a spindle gouge or skew requires a good amount of practice for the average turner to master. The main reason for wood lathes for sale in the used market, the owner gets frustrated with the initial attempts at turning simple projects, as the wood turner gains skill sets they also utilize superior learned skills to attain the finer quality results. Most beginning wood turners do not want to be treated like the Karate Kid having to wax on and wax off for endless hours of practice to accomplish a simple project on the lathe, there are plenty of wood turners that have never mastered the proper use of a skew after years of turning. Sandpaper is cheap and easy for the beginning turner to accomplish the same end results a master turner might achieve with superior tool technique. Some wood turners do this as a hobby while others are obsessed with creating a lifelong masterpiece, while others are pumping out hundreds of marketable goods to pay the bills. Each turner has different set of goals and path that they will most likely take.
     
  32. robo hippy

    robo hippy

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,869
    Location (City & State):
    Eugene, OR
    Well, to me, part of the leaning process is to find out what works best for you. For pieces like these, I would suggest you get them 'close' with traditional tools, which in this case would be a spindle type detail gouge. Then clean up with a small negative rake scraper. As you do more and more of them, you will need less clean up work before sanding.

    Are these going to need a hole drilled through them?

    robo hippy
     
  33. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    With today's set, I'm beginning to see the possibility of pulling this off at scale.

    AC53A7D1-C2D7-4FB1-928C-F35E946CA66D.jpeg
    Much better surface. I'm still not able to get quite the curves I want, but I've managed to acquire some fine control. Process was less complicated and it took less time (still way too long, though). I considerably simplified marking up the blank, limiting marks to the crests of the beads and bottom center of the coves. 6 per 13", 2"x2" blank, which seems plenty rigid. Shape deviation is clearly still too much, but better nonetheless.

    Reed, these will be drilled (part way through), weighted, and plugged. That is, when I accumulate enough that are good enough to bother doing so. And I'm sure I'll lose some working out that process, too. I tried a scraper today, BTW. I actually found it easier to refine the surface with a very fine cut rather than scraping. (Surprised me, too.)

    Mike, the 1st picture was a bit of 3/4" maple scrap I had in the bin and was literally the first "thing" I tried to turn after simply experimenting with the tools a bit. Everything after that, and prior to the last couple of posts has been pine. 2x4's, actually. I'm now using the material I want to use for the tama (bobbins), which is KD, hard maple.

    To all - thanks for following along and for your suggestions. I have this distinct impression that I'm figuratively showing crayon scribbles to established artists. It's helped me ... hopefully it will someone else, too. I'll likely end this thread with my next batch and start another when I get to weighting, plugging, and final finishing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
    hockenbery likes this.
  34. Dean Center

    Dean Center

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,029
    Location (City & State):
    Bozeman, MT
    If you liked turning that board, you could check your nearby hardwood supplier for an 8/4 board. Assuming 10' long and 6" wide, you'd get 160 blanks for $60 or so, or less than 40 cents a piece.
     
  35. Bill Currier

    Bill Currier

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Location (City & State):
    Ponte Vedra, FL
    Dean, see post #28. I picked up a 13.5bf piece of 8/4 hard maple for $7.50/bf at Woodcraft.
     

Share This Page