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End Grain Hollowing Dry Brittle Dusty Wood

Joined
Feb 21, 2005
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I have been working with some pieces of dry brittle dusty wood. I have a suspicion it is box elder based on the smell and the red stain in the wood. I ususally don't have any big issues hollowing, but I haven't been able to find a way of effectively hollowing this wood when turned in the end grain orientation.

I have tried scrapers, bowl gouges, spindle gouges and even the trusty termite tool. The wood seems to be too dry and too brittle to cut cleanly. The termite comes the closest to what I would call a shaving, but even then it is a short cut and then "rip the wood" the rest of the way. I have been considering treating the wood to see if it makes it more "docile". I was thinking about using cellulose sanding sealer to see if that strengthens the wood enough to get a clean cut. Or perhaps using an oil would make the wood more flexible and give a cleaner cut? Does anybody have any experience with these techniques? Or is there something else I haven't thought of (other than the firewood pile) that would work?

Of course I can always stick with the termite, hog it out and use the 80 grit gouge to clean it up.

Any ideas would be appreciated.
Jeff
 

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It looks like the wood is very punky, as in almost too rotten to turn. Did you have problems with the outside also? Minwax wood hardener will help some. I have tried the thin super glue to firm up wood like that, with some success. Generally, I won't turn wood that is that far gone.
robo hippy
 
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Punkiness

It's actually pretty solid and the spalting marks are not in any way mushy, there also isn't any foul odor and they don't feel like they are going to give way.

But you are correct, the wood may be past the point where it will let itself be turned.
 
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I have turned cottonwood that acted like what you have. While this is probably not the best solution, I started sanding with 36 grit and ended up with a smooth surface. It's a pain, but the wood had a real nice figure and I got a good price for it at the local Artist Gallery.
Maybe someone will have a better solution.
 
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Termite works better where there's room to swing the handle. You're scraping more than cutting, if the peck-out in the picture is not soft spalted. I use a fingernailed gouge with the handle lowered to give me a shear and draw it slowly outward. It doesn't get to dead middle well as the termite, so you have a bit of sanding to do.

Alternative that I've used where I can't quite get the angle is to turn off the lathe and hit it with a freshly burnished one of these. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32641&cat=1,310,41069
 

john lucas

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Jeff I've been turning a lot of that stuff lately because I had a bunch of really dry box elder cutoffs given to me. It is very prone to tear out even with very sharp tools. Here's what I've found that works for me.
I use the new Hunter tools on the inside and a skew or spindle gouge on the outside. The Hunter tool cut like the ring tool but are made from a special fine grain carbide and have been polished so they cut very clean and hold an edge for a very long time. The hole in the center is filled with a mounting screw so the shaving run across it and never clog. Since they are round if you get them dull (which takes a long time) you just loosen the screw and rotate the cutter to a clean area. I especially like them for vases and things that need a clean cut on the side where I might use a ring tool. I tilt the tool very sharply so it is cutting at a shear angle. I'd say I have the tool tilted about 2 oclockto 8 oclock or if the tearout really a problem I use 1 oclock to 7 oclock.
The technique I use will work with the ring or hook tool as long as they are very sharp. First turn the lathe speed up. If you force the tool at all you get tearout. Increasing the speed lets you cut at a more comfortable pace but your taking smaller bites and there is less tendency to push the tool or force the cut. Make several light passes to reduce the tearout to a minimum. Then coat it with past wax and make a few more passes. This usually does the trick. If this doesn't work I coat the bad spots with lacquer thinned with lacquer thinner. If it's just a small area that has tearout I'll use thin CA glue but it has a tendency to run and stain the work.
 

john lucas

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Jeff Here's a quick photo of the Hunter #4 tool being used to cut some box elder.
 

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Thanks for the post, John. As you can see, the shearing surface of the Hunter is the same profile as the 10 to 12 o'clock sweet spot on a fingernailed gouge. Jeff, take a static study of your gouge before you tuck it in there, and it ought to work. You gouge is not carbide, though it will still stay sharp through many iterations with the same edge presentation.
 

john lucas

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MM The reason I like this tool is the cutting edge is sharpened to a much smaller angle than a bowl gouge and many spindle gouges or fingernail gouges. Some spindle and fingernail gouges are sharpened to 40 degrees. I can't measure the Hunter because I don't have the right tool but it looks to be around 45 degrees or less. This is because the inside has been recessed so the actual cutting edge is not what it looks like in the photo.
It is the exact same angle I use when I am cutting with the bowl gouge, ring tool or hook tool. Well close anyway, each one has a sweet spot. I have tried all methods with this wood including several spingle gouges and the Hunter has been the cleanest cutting.
Now if it's side grain so you are cutting from the lip down to the center a spindle gouge or Bowl gouge with Stewart Batty 40 degree grind works better.
 
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Both the color and the foul odor mean it's box elder alright. Smells like really poorly maintained gym socks.

No great advice on the hollowing other than patience, very light cuts, and playing around with angles while you still got a ways to go so that you've got it by the final cuts, which are the ones that count anyway.

dk
 

TEK

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Watch how thin you try to make that piece. Box elder end grain isn't very strong especially when it is spalted. I had one box elder vase that was about 3/16" thick, When I was cleaning up the inside, it just cracked off the base with very little pressure.
 

Bill Boehme

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I was going to suggest a hook tool, but john Lucas has already mentioned it. min wax Wood Hardener is good stuff, but I don't think that it is right for this project. It is a plastic material and gets very hard. It causes your tools to dull very quickly and it is almost like turning Corian. I have regretted soaking some wood in it because I can't turn it now.
 

john lucas

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That's one of the advantages of the Hunter tool. It's carbide and cuts through the hardest stuff without dulling. I used to use the ring tool anytime I was turning a vase and sometimes on stubborn endgrain boxes. Then I made a bunch of hook tools of varying shapes and sharpening angles. They cut extremely well in wet wood and do a pretty good job on dry wood but it just took too long to sharpen. Now I use the Hunter tools. They don't hog out wood as good as some of the others but they don't dull and cut so clean.
A friend came over the other day and had a tall deep Mesquite vessel that he was having trouble hollowing. We tried all the different methods I had. The #1 Hunter cut faster and just as clean as any tool that I had. I used it mounted in a Jamieson style rotating holder. The #3 and #4 cutters were just as good as the ring tool but all of those were very slow cutting. This was some hard wood.
 
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Thanks for the ideas...

I have made some progress, mostly by going with a very sharp bowl gouge, much higher speed, and very light cuts. I haven't picked up a hunter tool yet, but I think I may at some point in the near future.

The workpiece is looking better but I have a little problem area in the transition from the sides to the bottom. I took it off the lathe because I was becoming more than a little impatient and that's when something bad usually happens.

In the mean time I turned a couple of easy-going blocks of maple to remind myself I haven't completely lost it.

Jeff
 
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box elder

I have turned 8-10 small bowls of red box elder in the last 2 months, and it's not that enjoyable. Fortunately, with a little super glue near the where the pith had been, it is easy to sand, and has a very nice soft feel to the wood. The red makes it worth it!!!Gretch
 
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