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Do expert turners get catches, runbacks, etc.?

Discussion in 'Getting Started' started by Jesse Tutterrow, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. Jesse Tutterrow

    Jesse Tutterrow

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    Last weekend I was at The Woodworking Show here in Saint Louis and was talking to a "professional" turner. I commented that I wished that on some of his DVDs he would show the occasional catch, Runback, Kickback, dig in, etc. So that the beginning turner would not feel like a total klutz when the get them. His comment back was that He never got a catch, runback,...

    Is this really true? Do experienced turners never have a catch, runback, kickback, dig in?

    I admit that I am getting better but I still have problems occasionally. Usually the top of the gouge hits the adjoining surface at the end of rolling a bead.
     
  2. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Only liars never have catches and run backs. :D

    With experience your catches will continue to decrease until they become rare, but occasionally something will happen ... a moment of inattention.

    You can always claim that you did it on purpose in order to create a design opportunity.
     
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  3. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    Before woodturning, my only catches were fish. Now......I get one occasionally. Many people call them catches and run backs. Others call them "@#$%" and "*&^%."
     
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  4. Mark Wollschlager

    Mark Wollschlager

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    A moment of inattention.
    I have seen many pro's have those.
    How they recover and continue is the key.
    Natural materials like wood can be full of surprises.
     
    odie likes this.
  5. Perry Hilbert

    Perry Hilbert

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    big difference too about the wood being turned. Get a gnarly twisted grain piece or a hidden knot and stuff goes to heck in a hurry. I see some of these instructional videos where they only turn straight grain poplar or bass. Give a piece of crotch hard maple and see. I am getting much better with a skew but stink to heaven with a bowl gouge.
     
  6. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

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    I have tried everything sharp tools, different angles, different speeds, and I still can't seem to get a catch. :)
    The skew and gouge is a lot like flying a plane, hours of enjoyment mixed with moments of shear terror. :)
     
  7. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I might get an unexpected catch every 2-3 years when my concentration drifts. This is usually in a demo when i’m Thinking about a step or two ahead and not watching the cut i’m Doing or worse by inavertantly touching the wood when I did not want to.

    In my own shop I will occasionally get an expected catch because I try to make a cut that I know is a catch about to happen.

    I once had a student who did not get a catch until about year after he started turning. I was helping him with some coring and he waved the gouge against the wood while we were talking not trying to cut and got his first catch.
     
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  8. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

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    Loosing focus while turning on a wood lathe usually represents the main cause of tool catches.
    Trying to get too much done in a long day usually ends up doing harm to the piece you just spent hours on.
    Knowing when to take a break or calling it a day is a lesson we all learn over time.
    I have watched a few videos on YouTube that opened my eyes to bad habits people take while turning.
    Unsupported, out of balance, high speed turning of questionable billets waiting for the small catch to turn
    into a really bad day. Sooner or later everyone will have a bad catch that pulls the billet right out of the chuck and you quickly get to exercise your sphincter muscles, and if your still upright after the billet bounces off the floor, wall and ceiling you see things in a different light if your lucky.
     
  9. Lamar Wright

    Lamar Wright

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    I'm by no means a professional turner, far from it. Just this morning I had a bad catch working on a small bowl. I had finished the outside and inside of the bowl and the bowl was mounted on a Nova Mini cole jaw so that I could work the bottom of the bowl without damaging the outside on the bowl. Had a bad catch :mad: turning the tenon down and all of all of a sudden "Bam" the bowl come off the cole jaw which was turning at about 550 RPM and knocked a small chunk out of the natural edge bowl. The bowl is repairable. Now I just have to find the missing piece of the bowl. :D
     
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  10. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    So, do you get more catches when fishing or when woodturning? :D

    Waving the tool around like a baton while talking is my favorite.

    I don't feel too bad about that kind of catch because it was deserved.
     
  11. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    Bill, you picked up on that one! Depends on the day and my kind of luck that is in force that day.
     
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  12. Dave Fritz

    Dave Fritz

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    A friend and outstanding turner was doing a demo and he kept getting a run back. He was embarrassed but kept going. The next day he called and said he figured out he had the tool rest at the wrong height. Like Al mentioned he was thinking about the audience and where he was headed rather than his turning. He said, that's why he doesn't like doing demos. My hats off to those that can do a demo and entertain an audience at the same time. It's not easy.
     
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  13. odie

    odie

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    Like others here, a catch happens occasionally......about once a year, I'd say. Also, like others, it's usually boils down to a lack of concentration. I find that the best cut is often times very close to a catch......so, with time in the saddle, I have learned just how far I can push the envelope.....but, it does require paying close attention to what you're doing at all times! :D

    -----odie-----
     
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  14. Zach LaPerriere

    Zach LaPerriere

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    I haven't had much of a catch on a bowl in a couple years, and that's largely because I grind a secondary bevel with a primary bevel at a 1/16" or less. I won't say it's idiot proof...but it sure helps us idiots! :D
     
    odie likes this.
  15. Derek Lane

    Derek Lane

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    I am not a pro turner but have been turning for many years and yes I still get the odd catch, trying to do something I well know you should not lack of concentration and others excuses.
    The biggest fear for me is later this year I am booked to do my first demonstration at our club and as some have mentioned due to thinking about what has to be done could lead to a ctach, but how to deal with them in front of an audience I think will be the key whatever happens I know I will get a few cheers when it does happen as I am sure it possibly may do>

    I am the other way round I have had more woodturning catches than fish catches no wonder i gave up fishing.:oops:
     
  16. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    Derek, do a short demo on catches, what causes them and how to avoid them.
    If I don't catch fish, I have an excuse. If I have a catch in wood, I have no excuse as I should have known better than to present the tool the way it shouldn't be presented.
     
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  17. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    I do still get them. Most of the time I am just not paying attention. I haven't had a bowl destroying/launching catch in years though. I have left a couple of them in my videos, just to show that I am some what human.....

    robo hippy
     
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  18. Hy Tran

    Hy Tran

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    I never get a catch, but I am an expert at unanticipated design opportunities, or creative artistic firewood.
    :p
     
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  19. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    Do pros get catchs. Don't know. I'm not a pro but yea I do. Usually when I do something stupid or I'm rushing in a demo. Good wood turning is about subtle movements. when you rush and make larger or what I call gross movements it's very easy to come off the bevel and get a catch. Usually when get a catch it's when I'm wasting away wood to get down to the final size and I'm rushing and taking large bites touch the wood with the unsupported portion of a gouge.
    There is a good article written by Lyle Jamieson on avoiding catches in American Woodturner back issues. There are a couple of videos by Richard Raffen on catches. Tim Yoder has some good one done is slow motion and up close.

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T9m2DadbhQ&t=426s

    Oh and don't forget this one. Why to not use a roughing gouge on faceplate turnings.
    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IOhHeyoZLaY
     
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  20. Breck Whitworth

    Breck Whitworth Sharp Dressed Woodturner

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    Catches are nothing more than allowing your gouge/tool to lift off of the rest for just a moment and the momentum of the spinning wood on the lathe catches the tool and slams it back down onto the tool rest where it belongs. I doubt many experienced turners have that many bad ones at all anymore, but all it takes is a moment of inattention to get one. I turn everyday and they are very rare but I have had a few moments where I was distracted and heard the metallic slam. I would say the more you turn the greater your muscle memory is and the fewer bad ones you will have if any. The less you turn maybe more. I will say I have only had one in years where the catch really dug into a piece.
    Runback is a lot more common I would imagine than most of us would like to admit, presentation of the tip of your gouge changes somewhat depending on the different tool you are using, along with the tool rest height. The good thing is the only place a runback really hurts is when you get close to the outer edge of a bowl. Take a diamond point scraper and push it into the bowl set the exact width you want before you hollow then when you get to that point you have a groove already prepared for the tip to fit in to prevent the bad runback that can totally mess up a nice piece.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
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  21. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    When you don't pay attention to what your doing you get a catch or a runback. We all do it. I don't get very many. It's usually when I get in a hurry or just lose concentration. My most common catch or runback is with the spindle gouge when turning the top of ornaments. I get in a hurry when I'm reducing the size of the tenon and don't stick the spindle gouge in with the flute at 3 oclock. If it's open too much and I push to quick I get a run back. It's on the waste wood side so no big deal which is probably why I'm rushing the cut. I seldom get a runback with the skew but If I haven't been using it much I will get one occasionally. Usually on the side of a bead.
     
  22. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    That's sort of what happened to me the other day when I smashed my index finger. It wasn't a catch, as I was getting the gouge out of the bowl didnt pay attention and the gouge hit the rim... As for catches, with a bowl gouge or spindle, I do not even remember when was the last one... Of course I do know how a catche happens, I explain to the students what not to do. However, it's hard to understand why a new turner has such a hard time understanding how and why a catch occurs after explaining them, over and over. I left a student alone for one minute last Saturday, he started doing a sheer scrape on the inside of the bowl! Instant catch... It's part of the learning curve, you got to have catches in order to be able to avoid them as you gain experience. When I went to Arrowmont, guy next to me, with years of experience, kept having catches. Some so bad that the bowl flew off the lathe. Tried to give him a few pointers but he told me he had learned from some masters...
     
  23. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I’ve run into the same guy with several different names. They learned in the masters class but not exactly what the master taught them. They are so sure.....

    When they are in my class, i’m Usually able to get them to try it my way by telling them they paid to take my class so humor me and try it this way for the first few days of class then they will know two ways to do it....
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
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  24. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    I still roll my eyes every time I see Ian's video about the SRG on a bowl. I am probably the only one who notices the comment about how he was out in the shop the day before for about 6 hours and couldn't get a catch. Stuart Batty mentions this video saying that the end grain causes the catch. Another big eye roll. If it was the end grain, then the gouge would dig in the first time it hits the end grain. The catch is caused by tool presentation. It is a controllable cut and one I would never use. With his presentation he presents the tool by rubbing the bevel first, and then raising the handle till it starts to cut, which is pretty much standard for the SRG and a peeling cut. No one I know, who has ever used a scraper on bowls would present a scraper in the same manner, even though for roughing bowls with scrapers, I do present the scraper pretty much square to the wood. The catch is caused by him extending out pretty far off the tool rest, then he raises the handle and comes off the bevel. The instant he comes off the bevel, you have a 45 degree bevel pointing up into the spinning wood. Big catch..... If you roll the SRG over on the side, you can not get that catch... For peeling cuts on spindles, I prefer a skew or even my scrapers. The scrapers do not catch if I come off the bevel. Must be a leverage thing because the cutting point is so close to the tool rest. I generally don't like the SRG on spindles for roughing. The square corners are the main reason, and If I do use it, most of the time I am at 45 degrees to the spindle, not square on. Just like the way it cuts better.

    robo hippy
     
  25. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    I will file that for later use! Good and polite way of saying something that can be a bit touchy...
     
  26. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    Do we know who this turner is? Was it necessary to do that? I'm not brave enough to attempt catches on purpose...
     
  27. RichColvin

    RichColvin

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    Emiliano,

    If you’re standing next to me, PLEASE do speak up if you see me doing the wrong thing. I’m not smart enough to ignore those wiser than me.

    Kind Regards,
    Rich
     
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  28. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    The turner in the video is Ian 'Robbo' Robertson, an Aussie. He has a couple of videos up, including the best one I have ever seen on taking apart your Vicmarc chucks for cleaning and repair. I have chatted with him several times. That demo was a bit over the top, but it gets the point across about peeling cuts on bowls.

    robo hippy
     
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  29. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    Thanks for the answer. Been using your rest. A dream has come true. Only thing is, if your Wolverine brackets are not perfectly centered, the Robo Rest has no problem in letting you know you were off just a little when you set it up ... LOL.
     
  30. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    The Wolverine bases do seem to vary on how much they push things to the side.... I do plan on doing a 'Peeling Cuts' video some day, and will include a bit on why I never use them on bowls. I did find out my scrapers work fine on peeling cuts on spindles. See you in Portland!

    robo hippy
     
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  31. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I haven't been been bothered by catches until I started reading this thread. :D Now, I'm getting subliminal messages to do the things that I am reading about. Got a whopper of a catch yesterday while not paying attention and stuck the gouge into the spinning wood. Caused me to utter an oath.
     
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  32. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval Administrator Staff Member

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    That's the right kind of attitude! I' still learning myself, everyday... I can tell within minutes of watching someone at the lathe how much experience they have, I could tell this nice guy needed help, but he refused...
     

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