1. Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

D-Way Large Negative Rake Scraper

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Aaron Harris, Feb 20, 2021.

  1. Aaron Harris

    Aaron Harris

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    25
    Location (City & State):
    Spartanburg, Tennessee
    After reading a lot of posts here and elsewhere, I just ordered the large negative rake bowl scraper with 16" handle from D-Way Tools in Washington. Jimmy and Cindy Clewes are a real nice couple; he answered all my questions, and they seem to get rave reviews. I got the 16" handle, as I seem to have more confidence and better success with heavy, stable tools (like my beloved Alan Lacer Uber Skew), at least while I'm learning and gaining confidence. I know that is a lot of steel to put into a bowl, so I definitely plan to ease my way into it. Turning on my Laguna 12/16 with the 1hp motor forces me to take light cuts anyway, so it may all work out. I also got a Robust curved tool rest so that I can get in closer, and not chatter my way into a catch. I figure if I want some smaller tools of his, I can just order the tool and put into the existing handle with the 5/8" receiver (I think-still figuring out how his system works).

    I've watched about every video on hollowing bowls (which still scares me), and I hope this scraper will be a game-changer for me. I am interested to see how much hollowing I can do with it. After watching RoboHippy's videos, he even uses scrapers to hollow bowls if I'm correct, and they leave a finish on par with a razor-sharp skew.

    Though I'm learning a lot here, I still have trouble with the bowl gouge inside the bowl, but often cheat with the round carbide cutter., which gives me good results unless I let it get dull and get too far over the rest. I also have some round tool rests on the way so I can get in closer, and not chatter my way into a catch!

    Thanks in advance for any input or advice. Although I've been turning spindles since last summer (pens, duck calls, shaving brushes, pizza cutters, etc.), bowls are a whole 'nother ball game, but I'm enjoying the learning curve. Aaron
     
  2. Tom Hansen

    Tom Hansen

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2020
    Messages:
    97
    Location (City & State):
    Portland, OR
    I have a couple of these and use it more for a finishing cut as they are neg-rake. I'll let robohippy speak to his "bug ugly" and hollowing with scrapers but this is a completely different thing. you wont regret buying these from d-way but I think you'll find they'll be used differently than you first assumed.

    edit: not that you can't hollow with them....
     
    Aaron Harris likes this.
  3. Aaron Harris

    Aaron Harris

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    25
    Location (City & State):
    Spartanburg, Tennessee
    Thanks, Tom-As I'm still very much learning the capabilities of my tools, I'm fine with that. I'll figure it out as I go, and continue to work on hollowing techniques meanwhile. I'm trying to build up some confidence and skill with shallower bowls, like a green-turned claro walnut candle and incense burner I bagged in shavings today that probably won't go over an inch deep-baby steps.
     
  4. Doug Freeman

    Doug Freeman

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2019
    Messages:
    445
    Location (City & State):
    Lebanon, Missouri
    This Ellsworth video is very good. The techniques really require a parabolic flute bowl gouge with his signature grind (dont have to buy the grind, any parabolic can be ground to it). His approach to roughing, holding the gouge parallel and twisted to 45 deg, helped me - I no longer get beat up. His ID finish cut, sometimes called the “suicide cut”, does require some discipline, but works very well. I was already using the OD slicing cut before seeing he used it, but his approach helped me refine my technique.

    https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdWw7w_lu91Qokw9Fu91Po5P7hrZOTKRW

    A neg rake (nr) scraper is for light cuts producing whisper shavings, so your limited power will be fine. Robo uses a std scraper profile with a burnished edge for roughing bowls. Im not positive what he is using now for finish cuts.
     
  5. Ron Solfest

    Ron Solfest

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    171
    Location (City & State):
    TN
    Aaron,
    Sounds like you’re buying some nice tools :)

    As mentioned, your new negative rake scraper will be used for fine finishing to reduce sanding.

    I think i scraped my first few bowls and was happy with them, but did a fair amount of sanding. Robo uses scrapers to hog out a lot of wood, watch some of his videos; but your lathe will be underpowered to dig a scraper in like he does.

    As with all things, practice will not only improve your skills but will also greatly improve your satisfaction. Make sure your bowl gouge is sharp first. If you haven’t already reviewed some of the AAW videos on sharpening I’d recommend it. You’ll always be frustrated until you learn to sharpen well.

    Next after sharpening is shape I think. Often people start by making square bottomed bowls that make the corner cut very difficult, plus they aren’t as pleasing to the eye. Raffan has several books on bowl shapes, as well as turning skills.

    YouTube is hit/miss. You can find some good videos (look for names you see on this site, or for some of those sponsored by majors - Craft Supplies, etc) but there’s a lot of inferior stuff too.

    After you get the hang of your bowl gouge it will be a pleasure to use. And certainly not as scary as that big Lacer skew you have

    Pretty soon I’m sure some of the pro’s here should chime in and give you better advice. Welcome to the turning vortex :)

    BTW - if you haven’t already found a local club you should look for that. Nothing beats hands on demos and advice; besides, turners are fun people!
     
    Aaron Harris likes this.
  6. Aaron Harris

    Aaron Harris

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    25
    Location (City & State):
    Spartanburg, Tennessee
    Thanks for the video, Doug-I'll be watching it.

    Ron-I am looking at grinds and wing shape, presentation-so many variables. As for sharpening, I'm learning that very quickly. Not that they are the same, but I've spent years hand-honing and refining straight razors that I've restored to shave-ready on synthetic and natural stones, strops, etc., and the basic principles are the same. If anything, I may be over-sharpening after coming off the 180 CBN wheel and hand-honing through a progression of diamond and surgical black slip-stones. I end every turning session with clean-up and sharpening as needed. The ones that don't need the wheel get sharpied and brought in with my sharpening box. I work on them in the evenings-I call it done when they will shave leg hair.:)

    And to be honest, I am much more afraid of my spindle detail gouge than I am that Uber-Skew; somehow I get that beast. I even turn pens with it-I'm weird, I know.
     
  7. Tom Hansen

    Tom Hansen

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2020
    Messages:
    97
    Location (City & State):
    Portland, OR
    i can't recommend enough, the excellent resource of the entire 20 year american woodturner magazine back catalog if you're an AAW member. It's searchable by topic and there is also an index of all 35ish volumes.
     
  8. Doug Freeman

    Doug Freeman

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2019
    Messages:
    445
    Location (City & State):
    Lebanon, Missouri
    Only the skew needs honing, and the nrs benefits from honing and burnishing a burr. I do hone my parting tool to remove the grinder burr. All others are used off the wheel. They can be honed but I didnt see much benefit.
     
    Aaron Harris likes this.
  9. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    288
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    I've had the large curved DWay NR scraper for a while now. Excellent tool and use it all the time. As others pointed out, it's not a tool for hollowing out material. One thing I do is flip the bur to different sides depending on what I'm working on - gives you a two for one tool. The angle on each side is different so just have to remember that when putting the bur on.
     
    Aaron Harris likes this.
  10. Aaron Harris

    Aaron Harris

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    25
    Location (City & State):
    Spartanburg, Tennessee
    Thanks, Randy-They demonstrate how to do exactly that flipping the burr on the video on his site. I'll have to watch that a few times after I get the tool in.
     
  11. robo hippy

    robo hippy

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,165
    Location (City & State):
    Eugene, OR
    D Way makes very high grade tools. I think the widest blank I got from them was about 1 5/16 wide, and an odd ball 1/4+ thickness. For reasons unknown to me, the M42HSS goes from that thickness to 3/8 inch.... That is a bit wider than I prefer for the NRS, but it does work. The thing about 'stability' in cutting for me is as much or more about having the tool rest closer to the work rather than farther away and using a bigger tool so you can reach out farther off the tool rest. This is also about having a shaped tool rest that allows you to get closer as well so you don't have to move it around as much. So, as you said, a bigger tool also can have you getting a lot more cutting edge into the wood at one time, which if you aren't prepared for it, can end up with things getting out of control leverage wise. This is more of a problem with a standard scraper, or even gouges, than it is with the NRS, but even with the NRS, it can be a problem. My preferred profile for the insides of bowls, both for my roughing scrapers and the NRS, is a bit of a straight edge on the nose, and then more of a 1/4 round profile on the outboard side of the tool. I like a more flat surface for smoothing out the bottom of a bowl, and a rounded surface for getting into the transition area of a bowl.

    As far for how effective a NRS is on finish cuts for bowls, it depends on the wood a lot. So first, you have to have a good sharp edge. The NRS with a grinder burr goes dull in maybe 30 seconds. With a burnished burr, you can double that time, but you still need to refresh the burr. If you have to push at all with the NRS to get it to cut, it is dull and needs to be touched up. You cut with them by just barely kissing the wood, and they are not made for heavy stock removal. Now, on to the wood types. In general, the harder the wood is, the easier it is to get a good clean surface with the NRS. As near as I can tell, you will get a better surface on the bottom of a bowl with the NRS because of the flat grain, but once you start to get into the transition and on to the sides of the bowl, your cuts are not as smooth. This is the end grain problem and the cutting up hill vs cutting down hill, and is a major contributor to tear out. With harder woods, this is a lot less than with softer woods. I generally find that I can get a cleaner surface with a shear scrape than I can with the NRS on the walls of the bowl. In the transition area, it is kind of a toss up. This is because a scraping type of cut still pulls at the fibers rather than slicing/shear cutting. With big leaf maple, I don't get as clean of a cut as I would like. With Pacific Madrone, I can still see very minimal tear out if the light is shining on it properly, but it provides an excellent surface, and sanding can start at 120 to 180. This compares to 100 to 120 on other woods. So much depends on the wood.

    I don't do finish cuts on bowl walls with scrapers, even the Big Ugly tool. I have found that I can get almost glass smooth cuts on end grain, like boxes with scrapers, but for that finish cut, I still prefer the NRS as it takes off far less wood at a time. The Big Ugly also makes an excellent NRS as well as a shear scraping tool.

    robo hippy
     
  12. Aaron Harris

    Aaron Harris

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    25
    Location (City & State):
    Spartanburg, Tennessee
    As a follow-up, I finished a spalted maple bowl yesterday using this tool for the 1st time. As you all suggested, I used it more for fine finishing cuts, where it excelled beyond even my razor-sharp skew. I had a lot of end-grain tear-out on this punky piece, and this NRS tool helped me eliminate probably 90% of it.

    As for ease of use, in marked contrast to a bowl scraper, it was super-easy and intuitive to use right away, and seems to be still razor sharp after that 1st bowl-the burr is still there all the way around. I can see me using this a LOT!
     
  13. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    288
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    Aaron, mine get used on every piece I turn - great tools. I can be lazy and it's easy to use them beyond the bur effectiveness. They'll still feel sharp but won't cut right. They will produce some small shavings maybe and dust. When really working you should get fine shavings and smooth cuts. I have to make myself stop and sharpen when I think hey, only a few more passes with it will do the trick then I put a new bur on it and the difference is huge. The rule of thumb I see a lot is a minute or two of use between sharpening is the norm. Depends on the wood I'm sure but that's the typical life span on them for me. I also redo the bur with a diamond hone or a steel rod a few times before going back to the grinder. Saves steel.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM
    Mark Jundanian and Aaron Harris like this.
  14. Aaron Harris

    Aaron Harris

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    25
    Location (City & State):
    Spartanburg, Tennessee
    Yeah, Randy-I figured to do just that, pulling the burr back into line as long as I can before hitting the 180 CBN wheel. 2 things I'll have to figure out: I've never sharpened one of these before, and I'm running 6-inch wheels as the old Baldor motor I had is only .25 hp, and I didn't want to push it too much (though it feels like it could handle 8's to be honest, especially if I give them a hand-spin before flipping the switch). This hasn't been too much of an issue on my other tools. I just patiently re-profile to the slightly tighter radius of the 6" wheel. They cut and re-sharpen just fine after that.

    The video on their website and the grinding profile card will help, though I'm guessing it's set up for 8" wheels. I may call him for his advice-we'll see when I get there.
     
  15. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    288
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    I do all my scrapers on my 6” CBN wheel. My 8” is setup for gouges. The 6” wheel does leave a more noticeable curve to the grind but the edge is all that really counts. Seems to work fine.
     
    Aaron Harris likes this.
  16. Aaron Harris

    Aaron Harris

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    25
    Location (City & State):
    Spartanburg, Tennessee
    Thanks, Randy-That's good to hear. I just figured or assumed that most of the tool-makers are using the standard 8 inches, but hearing your approach gives me confidence that I'm not too far outside the curve (on the wheel, that is).
     
  17. Mark Jundanian

    Mark Jundanian

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2018
    Messages:
    854
    Location (City & State):
    La Grange, IL
    Since we're talking about D-Way specifically I'll throw out this comment/question.

    I have one D-Way NRS (the straight spear point) and only some experience with NRS's in general. The included angle on the D-Way measures about 90* and following D-Way's grinding instructions achieves a similar angle. 90* will work, but to my mind is too large for optimum performance.

    I have been working the grind to get to closer to 70*. Are other D-Way users sticking with 90* as supplied or grinding to a narrower angle?
     
    Aaron Harris likes this.
  18. robo hippy

    robo hippy

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,165
    Location (City & State):
    Eugene, OR
    Which angles you end up using can depend on which style of NRS you are using. There seems to be 2. One is essentially a skew chisel, so 30/30 or even 40/40. The other style is more like 60/30 or 60/25. This is the style I prefer. I use it because I prefer the burnished burr to the grinder burr, and this angle combination seems to have the most durable burr. Eric Loffstrom also uses a burnished burr. Not sure what his preferred angles are. With a 30/30 grind, I can't get as good of a burr as I can with the 60/30.

    robo hippy
     
    Tom Albrecht and Aaron Harris like this.
  19. Randy Anderson

    Randy Anderson

    Joined:
    May 25, 2019
    Messages:
    288
    Location (City & State):
    Eads, TN
    Home Page:
    My understanding was that as long as the included angle was 90 deg or less it would work. My smaller ones I keep at 45/45. I've heard about but haven't tested the differences of going to a smaller included angle re cut efficiency vs life span. I'm sure there is a tradeoff. My large curved DWay is at 45/55. More than 90 I know but seems to work well for me so haven't changed it. That's different than the way they ship it and over time I adjusted it a bit but for now don't plan to change it more.
     
    Aaron Harris likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice