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Budget gouge for 40/40 grind

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Howdy everyone, this is my first post! I am looking for recommendations on a budget bowl gouge that takes the 40/40 grind well. Seems that Stuart Batty advocates a V shaped flute?
I've been Bowl turning (mostly) for a few years on a vintage Delta Lathe using a Wood River bowl gouge and sharpening on a 10'' stone wheel, and recently a Rikon slow speed grinder with a self built platform set at 40° permanently. My grind isn't always as consistent as I would like but I haven't had the money to invest in the wolverine system yet, so the 40/40 is the only grind I know how to do freehand. I've turned hundreds of bowls and live edge mushrooms and it's been working well, with the exception of the transition to the bottom of the bowl a lot of the time.

I may spring for a Thompson V shape gouge, but thought it might make sense to get a cheap one till I get my sharpening really dialed-in. Sort of looking at the Woodstock bowl gouge on Amazon, but I'm not sure about flute shape and 40/40 grind. Thanks!
 
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john lucas

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I dont use a V shape for the 40/40. Mine is a Henry taylor with what appears to.be a u shape but then ive.never held it right next to a Stewart Batty grind so dont k ow for sure. I prefer an Ellsworth grind on my Thompson V.
 
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As budget as they get - PSI Benjamins Best, but they are parabolic flutes. There are other bgt brands but you will probably have to ask about flute shape. SB says either a V or parabolic will work for 40/40. You would not want to buy a parabolic to hone freehand skills and then switch to a V flute. FYI Doug Thompson makes a parabolic flute 5/8” shaft for Lyle Jamieson, found on Lyle’s site.
 
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I thought he preferred parabolic shaped flutes. I practiced sharpening and learning with a $28.00 peach tree 5/8 gouge rather Than grinding away up a lot of metal on a more expensive gouge. The bonus was that this gouge preformed rather well when executing a push cut across the grain of a log. It gave a clean burnished cut requiring little of no sanding most of the time. The trademark of the Batty 40/40!
 
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I was going to get some hurricane gouges, then I saw they were U shape. I just went to order the Benjamins best and in the questions they also state the flute is U shaped, and only 13.5" handle. The Wood River gouge I've been using has a 16" handle and that almost doesn't feel long enough to me sometimes.
I started using the Rikon grinder, because the 10" stone wheel hit the floor and cracked in half =(, and have noticed my gouge getting shorter a lot faster now. Anyone else use an old 10'' wet stone wheel to sharpen? I feel it achieved a better edge /consistent grind and what a luxury to have a 2" wide wheel compared to the wheel that came on the Rikon. I can't reach the bottom of a medium depth bowl now without moving to too rest inside the bowl and loosing bevel contact.
 
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If I have a gouge in my hand you can be 99.9% sure it is a Thompson V gouge. I have at least 6 different sharpening systems and one thing that is true is that using them they all get the tool sharp and they cut. Now I have settled on using just one of them for myself and that is the Vector Grind Fixture. This fixture gives you the hat makers grind. I spent a few days with Chris Ramsey and he sharpens the hat makers grind free hand (as probably all hat makers do). Chris gave me a small portion of gouge with that grind for an example. I took a picture of that tool and mine off the Vector and that fixture is giving me a grind that is as close to the free hand grind as possible. What you need to do as soon as you can is to get a CBN wheel and I can almost guarantee your tool will last 5 to 10 times longer whether you use a fixture or grind free hand. The other high point of the Vector Grind fixture is that if you have at least 1/2" of flute left you can still sharpen your gouge and with the CBN wheels I will never get to the end of my gouge as they take off so little compared to the stone wheels.
 
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I can second what Bill stated above. I also use the Vector grind and really like the result. My gouges are a little more than 40 degrees, but that is preference. I have several gouges some as expensive as the Thompson, but the Thompson V gouges are my favorite. Many times I will re-sharpen the Thompson rather than using a different sharpened gouge. CBN is much, much better than the stone wheels that came on the Rikon grinder. CBN wheels can be easily found 1 1/2” wide. I don’t have a 10” wet grinder anymore as it suffered the same fate as yours, but CBN would be my choice between the two. As Bill stated you can sharpen a much shorter gouge using the Vector jig.. Club member gave me a bowl gouge that was too short for him to sharpen, but plenty of length for me. However the Vector does require a One Way base, but not the entire One Way system.
 

john lucas

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I used to think that you had to have a flute the full length of the gouge so that you could sharpen it down to the last stub. However with CBN wheels I take so little metal off that my gouges seem to last forever. I have used the same gouge now for many many years and it's just about an inch shorter than it was when it was new. It's going to take me a long time to get it short enough not to work. sharpening practice is what makes the difference. Sharpen your tools very often. This not only gives you a sharp tool which is so much more fun to use, it gives you practice and in the long run you will sharpen better and use up less steel.
 
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I use a Grizzly 10” wet grinder to sharpen gouges. I use the Tormek svd-186 jig. It doesnt remove much material when resharpening - I’m sure it conserves steel like a cbn wheel. Replacement 10” wheels are available from several mfrs. I am not a free hand sharpener. Sometimes I dont turn for a few months, and would probably loose the freehand skills.

Not sure where you saw that bens best are U shaped flutes - I just looked at psi’s site and did not see it. The 6 BB bowl gouges I have are all parabolic flutes - its been 4-5 yrs since I bought any but I doubt they have changed. Yes the handles are a bit short. Its easy enough to turn a handle the size you want, and remove a tool from a handle, but if you can find one with a handle that works for a good price thats the way to go. My turned bowl gouge handles are ~ 17”.
 
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Stuart uses parabolic fluted gouges, and those are his personal, or maybe signature gouges. That flute shape works great for just about any grind. I have a bunch of the more V shaped flutes, from Thompson and D Way. I don't know if I have tried a U shaped flute for the 40/40 or not. The problem with the more V shaped flutes is that when you roll from the wing to the nose, or nose to the wing, it is more of a quick flip over to the wings. If you keep the same roll rate, you will get a dip in your wings near the nose. This is because of the flute shape. If the flute is half round, you roll at the same rate. With a parabolic flute, you can keep pretty much the same roll rate

As for buying the cheap gouges, I don't. I still, after 20+ years of turning, I have most of my original set of tools that I bought from Craft Supplies, and they are far from being worn out. Perhaps the biggest thing to learn about sharpening is that there is a big difference between 'sharpening' and 'grinding'. I only grind to change profiles, or to remove the heel on my gouges.

robo hippy
 
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Stuart uses parabolic fluted gouges, and those are his personal, or maybe signature gouges. That flute shape works great for just about any grind. I have a bunch of the more V shaped flutes, from Thompson and D Way. I don't know if I have tried a U shaped flute for the 40/40 or not. The problem with the more V shaped flutes is that when you roll from the wing to the nose, or nose to the wing, it is more of a quick flip over to the wings. If you keep the same roll rate, you will get a dip in your wings near the nose. This is because of the flute shape. If the flute is half round, you roll at the same rate. With a parabolic flute, you can keep pretty much the same roll rate

As for buying the cheap gouges, I don't. I still, after 20+ years of turning, I have most of my original set of tools that I bought from Craft Supplies, and they are far from being worn out. Perhaps the biggest thing to learn about sharpening is that there is a big difference between 'sharpening' and 'grinding'. I only grind to change profiles, or to remove the heel on my gouges.

robo hippy

Reed, when you talk about getting the “dip” in the wings, are you freehand or jig sharpening? I use the Hannes vector jig and don’t seem to get that effect. I’m more at 50 degrees using the Hannes jig and for me like that better than 40 degrees with that jig. I could see using the wolverine Vari-grind how you could get that effect.
 
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I don't see the point of buying a cheap gouge. Once you settle on a preferred grind and sharpening routine you won't be wasting material so you might as well get a tool with high quality steel and good heat treatment. I have a Thompson V with a 40/40 grind free hand sharpened on a platform rest. If I can do it anybody can. You do have to take care in the transition as Robo says to avoid a birds beak.

I alternate between that V and an Ellsworth gouge. They each have their virtues. At this point in my schooling I can't say the V is better than another flute shape would be with the 40/40. As someone here has said an expert could get good results with a well sharpened spoon.

I think the biggest advantage of my Thompson gouge is the extended time between sharpening. I have seen comments indicating that some V gouges other than Thompson and D-Way tend to clog in use.
 
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Emiliano Achaval

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I dont use a V shape for the 40/40. Mine is a Henry taylor with what appears to.be a u shape but then ive.never held it right next to a Stewart Batty grind so dont k ow for sure. I prefer an Ellsworth grind on my Thompson V.
I do not think you can do a 40-40 on a U bowl gouge, something similar, and something that you can cut wood, but it would be the Lucas Grind, not the 40-40.
 
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Robo’s comment - SB uses parabolic flutes - made me look it up and confirm that yes he does. FYI both the SB and Ellsworth signature grinds use parabolic.

As to cheap gouges - I’m the odd one out. I have a Jamieson/Thompson and a Crown M42 5/8” shaft bowl gouges. IF I decided to learn freehand sharpening, I would not use either to learn. I would buy a $30 gouge that I could chew up on the grinder and become very competent before I attempted it with a $100 tool. That cheap M2 gouge will cut just fine, and require resharpening more often providing lots of practice.
 

Lance Mirrer

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I can 3rd or 4th to the Vector grind (hannestool.com). When I don't turn for a while, it seems easier to use the wolverine then remember how to use the vectors.
As to budget, I also recommend Capt Eddie's web site. Among many other helpful items, he has plans for a home made Wolverine jig.
On Gouges, I use mostly Thompson's and Old Glaser's. I like having cheap sets when I what to try something new - grinding down one tool into something else or for practicing
 
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If your problem is that your gouge can't get through the transition zone to the bottom of the bowl, it's not the shape of the flute. Even Stuart Batty can't drive a 40/40 around the transition zone in a typical hemispherical bowl. The 40 degree nose angle just won't make it without the shaft or handle running into the rim, causing the gouge to go off the bevel. If you want to be able to make a continuous cut from rim to bottom, or use a single gouge for the whole inside of the bowl, you'll need at least a 50 degree nose angle. Those who use the 40/40 have a second gouge ground more bluntly, commonly referred to as a 'Bottom Feeder' or 'Bottom of Bowl' gouge.

If you are going to stick with a platform and you have a grinder with 2 wheels, you could put a 50-60 degree platform on one wheel. Or you could look up how to make your own Ellsworth jig and Wolverine style arm out of wood/plywood/dowel/eyebolt. It's not as precise as store bought, but it's not really all that complicated to DIY.
 
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This is my understanding
The Bowl gouges that were made by SB tools are not made from round stock see page 38 in catalogue below

http://www.dmwoodturners.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Tools-Woodturning-CATALOG-AUG-2013.pdf
The catalogue also contains other useful information


The bowl gouges Stuart uses is a parabolic gouge sold by Oneway for the
40. 40 grind and a U shaped gouge made by Doug Thompson for a bottom bowl gouge
Ashley Harwood was taught by Stuart and on her website she sells Sorby tool for the 40. 40 grind and Thompson U fluted tool for a bottom bowl gouge

Recently a video has appeared on you tube of Stuart demonstrating the 40 .40 grind which may be helpful
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhlMQr7Hk0k&t=228s&ab_channel=DeniseSawyer


and Cindy Drozda who also uses the same grind as Stuart has the sharpening video below on YouTube
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_KDSIDAtGc&ab_channel=CindyDrozda
 
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I have been sharpening with platforms for maybe 10 years or so, can't remember any more. That little dip/bird's beak near the nose first showed up to me with one of the Glaser V gouges, which were a steep V rather than the more open Thompson V. I was using jigs at the time. Stuart has pointed this out for a while in his sharpening videos, and John Lucas has a video where he shows how to fix this dip. Not too difficult. It did take me a while to figure out that I needed different roll rates depending on the shape of the flute. I invented my platform because I wanted one that worked like a chop saw. With my platform, you never have to measure angles, you just pull the pin and set it to the next angle. Other than that, platform sharpening is exactly what you do when you turn. Anchor the tool on the tool rest, rub the bevel, and cut. All movement is with the body.

Brian, I must have missed Stuart's 'beam' shaped gouge blanks part of his demos. Never considered it. Me, being the frugal type notice that he mentions that this enables you to hang out farther off the tool rest with less vibration. That particular shape would most likely have to have been a special order of metal for his gouges, which adds to the cost. While extending out is some thing that we tend to do more of when we are learning, we do far less of it as we get more experienced. Part of him wanting to hand out farther off the tool rest is his use of the straight rest rather than an inside bowl rest. I do consider most inside bowl rests to be ones that were designed by turners, but not specifically by bowl turners. Another reason why I made my own...

robo hippy
 
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john lucas

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I Use the Robo Rest and love it. I don't truely do a 40/40 anymore. I'm calling it a 40/45. I like to have the wings roll back further than the true 40/40. Don't know that they are but I probably swing the gouge to 45 or 50 degrees left and right to get the shape I want. It is a much more useful tool for me like that because I use it for shear scraping and pull cuts as well as push cuts. From what Stewart says when he teaches he came up with this grind so the 40 degree cutting angle is consistent up through the wings meaning that when your doing a push cut and roll the gouge to cut on different parts of the U shape the edge stays at 40 degrees. My Henry Taylor gouge is a U shape but when you grind it to a 40/40 the wings or upper parts of the U are actually more acute than 40. So I'm swinging the tool more to get a swept back wing look but the edge is very keen and cuts super clean as a pull cut. I could have left the wings more straight up and used the push cut with flute up like Ellsworth does and it would give a really clean cut because of the more acute edge. Of course that also assumes you can rub the bevel.
 
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I have two old Benjamin's Best 5/8" gouges and just bought a new one. The stock number is the same but the shape of the gouge is different.

Feb 7 there is another thread about the 40-40 grind and which gouge. The eighth post was mine and in it is a picture of the old and new Benjamins Best Gouges.
 
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I like to have the wings roll back further than the true 40/40. Don't know that they are but I probably swing the gouge to 45 or 50 degrees left and right to get the shape I want.
The include angle of the 40 deg bevel and the wing angle is 80 deg. The wings are 40 deg up from the axis of the flute. From the sound of it, what you call 50 deg would be the correct wing angle. Measure the included angle as described and let us know.
 
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I have two old Benjamin's Best 5/8" gouges and just bought a new one. The stock number is the same but the shape of the gouge is different.

Feb 7 there is another thread about the 40-40 grind and which gouge. The eighth post was mine and in it is a picture of the old and new Benjamins Best Gouges.
When did you buy the 1st, narrower flute BB’s? I checked mine, purchased probably 8-10 yrs ago, and they are the wider flute, the more recent pic.
 
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For terminology, I use bevel angle and sweep. Bevel set to 40, and 40 degrees of sweep to the side gives us a fairly true 40/40 grind. The swept back gouges go to more like a 60+ sweep. My BOB tools have maybe 20 degrees of sweep.

robo hippy
 
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