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Another Case of the Lifted Mailing List

Discussion in 'AAW Information' started by Vaughn, Oct 15, 2010.

  1. Betty Scarpino

    Betty Scarpino

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    Occasionally, when looking through my "all mail" folder hunting for a lost email, I will discover a few emails that I had no idea had been sent to me. Some emails do not end up in my junk mail folder, nor do they appear in my in box. Yet they were sent. So it's possible I was sent the Laguna ad, too, but I just don't know it, yet.


    Betty Scarpino, editor, AW
     
  2. n7bsn

    n7bsn

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    Lost e-mail

    A couple years back, two guys I know did a little study on e-mail. They sent a number of messages back and forth. Since they both had access to multiple root-level mail servers this allowed them to send via a number of different paths

    What they found was somewhere between 0.5% and 2% of their test e-mails just vanished. (depending on conditions they did not understan the "why" for)

    They dug through the logs of all the servers they used, and they could find the "send", but someplace in the hand-off between the mail routers between "here" and "there" a small percentage just vanished.

    A guy I know can't send my any mail to my Yahoo account, even with his "name" in my address book. It nevere gets there, neither into the IN nor SPAM folder. We have no idea why.
     
  3. Ed Davidson

    Ed Davidson

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    I’ve seen that exact same situation many times – where legitimate emails "get lost" on their way to the destination.

    One of the causes for this is where the recipient’s ISP has been blacklisted by the sender’s ISP. In some cases, this problem is compounded when the ISP is a small business, and they outsource security services, like spam management, to third party contractors. There have been documented cases over the past several years where unscrupulous “security” contractors purposely blacklist an ISP for the sole purpose of extracting a fee (ransom) to remove the blacklisting block. In my ISP’s case (Comcast), at any given time, they will have 2 or 3 email servers blacklisted by one or more other ISP’s. Whenever they are confronted with one of these blacklisting/blackmail schemes, they just discard that mail server’s IP and set up a new one. A cost of doing business on the net, I guess.
     
  4. AlanZ

    AlanZ Resident Techno Geek

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    Yup, email is reliable.

    You can absolutely depend on an email message being delivered zero or more times.
     
  5. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Agreed x 2. That's part of the reason that I don't use or accept e-mail for legal communications. Another part, of course, is that I don't have time to waste on lawyers' nastigrams. ;)
     
  6. Stuart Johnson

    Stuart Johnson

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    ironic

    It's sort of ironic that one message sent regarding a possible violation of AAW email privacy has generated 44 (now 45) additional messages. None can give solid proof there was any evil doers involved.
     
  7. davidwalser

    davidwalser

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    Yes, but don't you agree that there's an awful lot of irony in the make up of the two sides debating over the issue? Many who are making light of or excusing the misuse of AAW members' email addresses were angry with the Board for a percevied laxness in following AAW's rules and policies. (And vice versa.)
     
  8. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Ironic too that nobody's charging off making accusations, let alone convicting anyone with nothing more than weak circumstantial evidence.

    I was actually tempted to call Laguna myself, but since I didn't get the e-mail (or have it bounced by my spam blocker), it's not my fight.

    Got a note here that the only way to restore the privacy of the AAW Directory may be to delete all the e-mail addresses, but maintain a secure data base strictly for official AAW use. That would be a real shame.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  9. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    You nailed it, David. In fact, I have two "AAW" addresses...one for the forum here, and a different one for the Resource Directory. So not only do I know the address was found via the AAW, I know it was gotten specifically from the Resource Directory.

    Right again. I hope I didn't seem to be accusing anyone specific (Laguna, AAW, a member trying to be helpful, etc.) of violating the rules, my point was only that someone had done so. (Not even saying it was a willful violation...could have been a naive person with good intentions.) Best I can recall, the only e-mail I've ever received at the address in question has been renewal notices from AAW, the woodturnersforum invitation, and the Laguna ad.

    I also don't think the Laguna ad was related to the woodturnersforum invitation. What I do know is that, either knowingly or unknowingly, both used the address in violation of the rules as I understand them. If I get a bit of free time, I'll probably give Laguna a call and see if they can shine any light on things. It's not a big deal...the Delete key and I have a very close relationship...we get together all the time. :D
     
  10. glenkey

    glenkey

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    No thank you, don't need your advice.
     
  11. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Didn't think so. Just making sure.

    peace
     
  12. n7bsn

    n7bsn

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    Interestingly, I didn't get the Laguna ad. But I did get the woodturnersforum e-mail

    Which I reported to their provider as SPAM:D
     
  13. Sean Troy

    Sean Troy

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    Under federal law (FCC), reporting that as spam to their ISP is a crime itself. :) Look it up.
     
  14. Mark Cothren

    Mark Cothren

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    I got the Laguna e-mail as well; but my AAW e-mail address is not unique to AAW like Vaughn's. I am, however, still interested to know how this is happening.
     
  15. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Sean,

    I was curious about your comment and poked around a bit on the FCC web pages as well as the US Criminal Code, but couldn't find anything like what you mentioned. Could you please post a link to the information?

    Ran a broad search for "spam" on the full US Code. I did find provisions like the Can-Spam Act providing for penalties for sending Spam, and criminal stuff for porn, etc., but I couldn't find any mention of a violation for reporting a message, commercial or otherwise, as spam.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  16. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Since Sean's not getting back, does anyone else here have any information on the spam reporting issue that he mentioned?

    I've done more extensive searches on the FCC as well as the FTC, but have found nothing about what Sean mentioned. Have an acquaintance who's a telecom attorney, but she's on vacation for about 3 weeks.

    TIA
     
  17. Mark Wollschlager

    Mark Wollschlager

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    Most ISP's have an abuse mailbox specifically for reporting stuff like spam, and other violations of TOS.
    I would call shenanigans on any FCC/FTC rule against reporting a user to an ISP.

    Mark
     
  18. Stuart Johnson

    Stuart Johnson

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    A pure guess but there might be something about reporting spam and what can and can not be reported to an ISP as spam. For example if I received an email from an AAW member that questioned my stance on a subject. I didn't request the email so could it be considered spam? There also might be a law about falsely accusing someone of spam. Like I said a pure guess, I don't know how to report spam and my delete key works great.
     
  19. n7bsn

    n7bsn

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    Sorry, WRONG (guess one of the things I have been PAID to do)

    There are no FCC regulations on SPAM

    There are FTC regulations, but the forum post probably does not violate their regulations (I'm not recalling how it could right now, since it was a one-time only)

    The Laguna ad would only have violated the FTC's or Washington State's regulation (in the later case the CAN-SPAM act), if they had previously sent one, and you told them to stop, and they didn't.

    The Forum e-mail did violate the TOS of their provider though.

    Generally SPAM only violates either FTC regulations or (various) State laws if the poster: Uses a forged return address, refuses to stop sending you e-mail, engages is the various scams around (make-money-fast) or reveals your private info (including e-mail addresses) to third parties.

    I helped shut down (and provide info to AG's) several real SPAMers, back when I was working for an ISP to help shutdown SPAM
     
  20. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    I have a 3-step process for spam. I can simply delete it, or I can report it first, or I can also block the sender's domain so I'm not bothered by that source again. I've got more that 500 domains blocked including "g-mail" because of all the spam I got from that there.

    But I've not been able to find any "law" or regulation that mets out punishment to a reporting recipient if somebody later decides that a reported message wasn't spam. Would seem like kind of a tough rule to enforce as well.

    Perhaps Sean was conflating the concept with something else.
     
  21. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Thanks for clearing that up. Also good to know that my research skills aren't getting rusty yet.:D
     
  22. Sean Troy

    Sean Troy

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    Falsely reporting to a federally regulated agency is a crime. It is not considered spam by the way. I can't believe this is even an issue with some people. Did you ever hear of the delete key? You've spent more time crying about it than it would have taken to hit the delete key and be on with your lives. Did it really affect your lives so badly that you need to spend so much time whining about it?
     
  23. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Ah, Now I understand your point, Sean, thanks. The mistake I think you make is in defining the marking of a message as "spam" as filing a report with a Federal Agency in potential violation of 18 USC 1001. "Ordinary" spam reports are not filed with the FCC or the FTC.

    Now, were someone to go out of their way to make a direct formal complaint filing with the Agency involved, that might be different. But a legitimate difference of opinion about whether an e-mail should be viewed as somehow harassing by the recipient in violation of the Can-Spam Act will not give rise to any criminal liability for an intentionally falsified statement.
     
  24. n7bsn

    n7bsn

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    Spam

    Sigh
    you claimed
    Now you say something else (your current statement is actually correct)

    While I noted I reported it to their PROVIDER

    However, your claim that you should just delete e-mail is as wrong as your claim that reporting SPAM to a provider is a Federal crime
     
  25. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Sean is correct in what he has said. And you, n7bsn, also are correct in that what you reported isn't "spam", as defined by WIKI "Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately." The key word in that quote is "bulk". No way was this a bulk emailing.
     
  26. n7bsn

    n7bsn

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    Spam


    Mark, if you are blocking domains in your e-mail client, you might be making a mistake.

    The reason I say this is 99.999% of real SPAM uses a forged (ie not real) return e-mail address. So if you are blocking, say all G-mail (or yahoo-mail, etc) because the SPAM you receive has that as a return address, you end up blocking more good e-mail then you want to.

    If you are looking inside the headers, for the origin domain, looking for long-term patterns in this origin, then blocking that, well, that's how ISP's work their current blocking routines.

    Well, that and heuristic studies on the verbage used, to score the e-mail for the chances that it is SPAM.

    How most ISP handle SPAM today is a combination of (very) selective blocking of domains (mostly overseas, mostly Asia) and scoring of e-mail, according to rules people like me developed that looks at the content of the e-mail to try to determine of the e-mail is question is SPAM.

    Since Google (and Yahoo and MSN and AOL) tend to be very aggressive in deleting actual SPAMer e-mail accounts.... I wouldn't bother with them.

    One of the issues that Comcast has (in their efforts) is they get a little too agressive in blocking domains. Lets say that a domain in a given IP (comptuer address) pool is known to have an "open" e-mail server (something SPAMers like, most are "closed"). Comcast might block all domains inside the pool.

    (note: open e-mail servers used to be the standard, all were "open", then SPAMers learned they could relay SPAM via these servers. So today almost all e-mail servers are "closed" and you can only use them if your IP is in their pool. Or why you can't use Eudora, Outlook, etc any place except at home)
     
  27. n7bsn

    n7bsn

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    You might want to look up the definition of bulk. If this e-mail went to every AAW member, or every member of this forum, or any large list (and from the reports it did go to a large list) it was bulk

    If the list of people getting either the Forum or Laugna ad was harvested from the AAW directory or from the Forum info, it certainly violated the AAW terms of service.

    If this list of e-mail address was obtained by one person, and provided to another it may have also violated some real laws (ie various Privacy Acts)
     
  28. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Quite true that it may be over-inclusive, but it is, after all, my mailbox ;)

    I do, actually receive mail from the Google domain, but each sender is separately and specially authorized.

    I may not have any control on what shows up here from the Postal Service, but I jealously guard my right to determine what shows up on my computer. Years ago, I thought e-mail would be a great addition to communication in my office. Great it was until some law firm sent me a destructive virus that crashed my machine and cost me nearly $1,000 to have my data retrieved and my system rebuilt. My policy of limitation has been in place ever since, and will stay that way. :)
     
  29. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Could (but I doubt) also be interpreted as Unauthorized Access to a Computer for which there have been several rather high profile criminal prosecutions lately.

    I am suggesting that we've gotten sufficiently distant from the world of turning wood in this thread that we all might consider moving to another subject. :cool:

    peace
     
  30. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Well, I stand corrected, I thought it went to a reported "handful" of people. I guess your and mine definitions of "bulk" are starkly different.
     
  31. Timothy Rowe

    Timothy Rowe

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    Over this

    so what does this have to do with woodturning?

    Please quit posting on this thread. It keeps me from turninng.

    Yes I know I could just hit the delete key. But don't want to miss any info that may be important.
     
  32. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Ditto.
    [opps, just delete this:D ]
     
  33. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Pretty good Mark. Care to venture who has made the most posts on this thread?
     
  34. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    Although I do believe this was a bulk mailing based on the header (and footer) information, I'm pretty sure I haven't ever referred to the Laguna ad as "spam". Plus, I would not report it to the authorities as spam, since everything they did was within the rules established in the CAN-SPAM Act. (At least as I understand those rules.) Now if I asked to be removed from their mailing list and the ads continued to show up, then yes, that would be reportable as a violation of the CAN-SPAM Act.

    What I am very certain about though, is that the ad was sent to an unauthorized address, in violation of the rules established for the Resource Directory. Anything beyond that is just conjecture. ;)

    Wanna guess who's second? Yes, I counted. (In fact, you had the lead there for a while, but Mark pulled ahead when he started posting clarifications to other peoples' misinterpretations of the laws. So far, the bulk of your points have been only to dispute known facts or raise hackles.) Pot...meet kettle. :rolleyes:
     
  35. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Don't try and justify Mark's numerous posts, he is afterall a Lawyer, its his duty.:D
     
  36. Wally Dickerman

    Wally Dickerman

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    Gary, how much volunteer work have YOU done to benefit the AAW? Besides complaining about others who do.

    Wally
    Member 164
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2010
  37. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Wally; that's an interesting question. I have only been a member of AAW for a little under a year and as such am not able to run for any office. I live in a very rural setting and don't belong to any Clubs( closest is a little over 100 miles from where I live). I would have loved to have been selected to be on the Bylaws ReWrite Committe but I wasn't asked. So the short answer is I guess I haven't contributed to anything AAW, not because I can't or won't, but because I haven't been a member long enough or located close enough to be a member of a Club, and haven't been asked. If you can point me in a direction as to where I might be able to help, I gladly will.

    Gary Martin
    23467

    P.S. I LOVE your work, some of the best hollow forms I have ever seen.
     
  38. Ed Davidson

    Ed Davidson

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    Garmar,

    Why don't you help start a local chapter...all you need is 2 or 3 other people in your area who are interested in turning to get started. Click here to learn more. And here for some helpful how-to's.
     
  39. Garmar

    Garmar

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    That's a really good suggestion Ed, however, I feel you don't exactly have a feel of where I live. When I say rural, I mean rural. Two years ago our school system lost its ag/woodshop teacher to retirement and there hasn't and likely won't be a replacement. I took night courses prior to purchasing a wood lathe which were a delight, learned lots of stuff. During the time involved with the night course(s) my neighbor and I constructed a wood mill similar to a woodmizer then harvested & kiln dried lumber for the local high school students to use on their projects . We only asked that they donate some time/labor in processing the lumber. Several were interested and those that participated were able to get quality wood to use on their projects. Again, that all stopped with the loss of our local high school loosing its woodshop teacher. Some were able to learn basic woodturning while the teacher was still there, but now none of the equipment is allowed to be used and I have the only Lathe that I know of in the area. When a community loses a valuable asset such as Woodshop Instruction it really deminishes the interest in woodworking/woodturning. Again Ed, very good idea but I don't have any concept of how to guage interest when the central figure is missing and equipment is extremely scarce. The documents you refer to for my perusal (thanks) are very informative and I do know one other person who might have some interest, guess I'll ask him tomorrow when I see him at the coffee shop. Thanks Ed.
     
  40. Ed Heuslein

    Ed Heuslein

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    Sorry Gary, you need another excuse. I live in East Texas - near Tyler, TX, where I belong to my primary club. We have 126 members. I also belong to the Dallas Area Woodturners and the Hunt County Woodturners clubs. Each of those clubs are about 125 miles from my house. I make an average of about 9 meetings per year for each of those clubs.
    So, excuse #2???:)
     

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