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Another Case of the Lifted Mailing List

Discussion in 'AAW Information' started by Vaughn, Oct 15, 2010.

  1. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    Another Case of the Lifted Mailing List?

    I was just going through my Junk E-mail folder, and noticed that I got an ad from Laguna Tools (announcing a free shipping deal) about a month ago. Interestingly, this e-mail was addressed to the unique address that I have assigned to my AAW member account. This address is only available from the AAW Member Directory.

    Since I seriously doubt AAW was involved in this, it looks to me like someone at Laguna Tools has been mining e-mail addresses from the AAW Member Directory. :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  2. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Hmmm, I wonder if there was another way Laguna could have gotten that address. I rather doubt they have the time to go mining on the Restricted Members Only Directory.

    Curious, though, about the actual source of the e-mail. Could you forward it? Sending you a PM.
     
  3. Garmar

    Garmar

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    It's real interesting that Mandel has the time to "quickly" respond to a post here yet he can't get the Bylaws work done in a timely fashion. Very interesting...
     
  4. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    All in Good Time, Mr. Martin. I don't do Band-Aid© work.

    [Why does everybody seem to confuse me with that damn governor? Sheesh . . . ]
     
  5. john lucas

    john lucas AAW Forum Expert

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    Give me a break Gary. How long does it take to respond to something like this. Mark is doing this on a volunteer basis and still works full time. If you would like to volunteer to help with the bylaws I'm sure you would be welcome. Instead you just want to complain.
     
  6. JRutten

    JRutten

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    Excuse me...

    On one hand you have maybe something that takes 10-15 minutes (looking into the Laguana tools ad) and on the other hand you have an activity that if done with any level of proficiency would take a team of people months. That was so unfair Garmar especially given the bylaws committee would probably not be where it is without Mark's background in law. I think you owe him an apology.
     
  7. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    He. He. Argued a matter before the appellate court in New York yesterday. After the argument (that didn't go at all well for my opponent), counsel, who knew a bit of my outside activities, including the AAW Committee, quipped that I should've been spending more time on that "woodturner's thing."

    But not to worry, John, Garmar's not the only one who's wanting the rewrite to be done a.s.a.p.

    Peace
     
  8. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Let me ask this question: Concerning the Member Directory - As I understand it, the information contained within the Directory is for my use. What precludes me using the information to formulate my own Directory? Just asking...

    P.S. There won't be an apology from me to Mandel, he has thicker skin than that.
     
  9. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    No problem, but could you at least spell my name correctly. I'm kind of attached to that second "l"
     
  10. Ed Davidson

    Ed Davidson

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    Garmar...my friend,

    Generally speaking, if AAW members complain about receiving spam, suspecting that their email was sold by AAW or lifted off of an AAW resource, then, the St Paul office is compelled to pursue the concern. The degree of pursuit is a reflection of the number of complaints received. The underlying motivation is that AAW has an obligation to protect the information entrusted to it by our membership. So, if nobody complained about the use (perceived misuse) of your 2nd-hand directory, it's doubtful that any action would be taken.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  11. davidwalser

    davidwalser

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    I think the answer is that you may create your own directory if you'd like, you just couldn't sell it or use it for any other commercial purpose. ("Commerical" in this context has a very broad meaning -- it would include anything that's not strickly personal. So, for example, you wouldn't be permitted to use the directory to raise money for a worthy charity, to promote political candidates or causes, or, to create a too-far-fetched-to-be-thought-possible example, to recruit AAW members to join a rival woodworking forum.) So, if you're traveling through Mesa, Arizona, feel free to use the AAW directory to look up local members and see if we're available to meet and greet a fellow turner. If you have a few hundred extra pen blanks that you'd like to unload at a small profit, please don't use the AAW directory to send out solicitations to potential buyers.

    Make sense?
     
  12. Garmar

    Garmar

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    That I apology for.
     
  13. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Well Ed, my Brother, let me ask you this: If I were to "lose" my Directory and by some freaky situation it were to show up on Ebay (as an example) and sold to a young enterprising individual who wanted to use the list as a "mailing list" what action could possibly be taken. If you are at all familiar with some online companies (and I'm certain you are) - and their mailing lists - its almost impossible to locate an "owner" or pry information from them without extensive legal action. I'm no Lawyer (I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express); but from what I see of the AAW's Financials, you(AAW) couldn't possibly initiate any action other than puffing up and threatening a unknown Internet Presence. As I see it, the Membership Directory is mine to use as I wish. As a matter of fact, I can't even find my Directory.:cool2:
     
  14. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Not My Field But

    Not sure you're on the right track here, Dave.

    Of course any member can look up any other member in the Directory, by name, State, or zip code in order to contact that member. Likewise, we all have e-mail lists of the people we've sent to or received from over the years (unless you go through and weed out the chaff). But the AAW Privacy Policy prohibits use of the information by purposefully compiling it into a mailing list. While there may appear to be a couple of qualifiers referencing "commercial" or "charitable" use, I suspect that those would not shield someone who intentionally harvested 13,000 names and addresses for a mass mail campaign of any sort without actual permission.

    Naturally, all of this is smoke in the wind right now because nobody other than Vaughn has yet popped up with a "me too". It's far, far too early and really inappropriate and unfair to be jumping to conclusions and/or pointing fingers at anybody at this juncture. Let's also keep in mind that Laguna Tools is a paid advertiser in the Directory, and as such, may have received a copy of the book. It also wouldn't be unheard of for a Laguna principal or manager to be an AAW member.

    So why did they send their ad to Vaughn (only) using his "AAW only" address? I have no idea. Since they have an 800 number, the call is free . . . .

    Let's all remember our "No Mas" commitments, shall we?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  15. Curtis Thompson

    Curtis Thompson

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    Privicy Policy

    Posted by Mark Mandell,
    Mark, can you point us to where this statement is in the privacy policy. And if by chance I missed seeing it, is it a new addition to the privacy policy that was added when the policy was unavailable a few weeks ago.

    Thanks,

    Curtis Thompson
    AAW # 15049
     
  16. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    Mark, the e-mail message is on its way to you. Ed, let me know if you'd like a copy, too. If anybody is interested in seeing if they got the same advertisement, the message I got was dated 9/14/2010, and the subject line says "Free Shipping From Laguna Tools".

    Three posts into a thread totally unrelated to the BOD/Bylaws issue, and the drum-beaters show up. :rolleyes: With all due respect, please give it a rest or start your own thread.
     
  17. Ed Davidson

    Ed Davidson

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    Curtis,

    AAW has two privacy policies, both posted on the site...from the main pull-down menu: "About/General Info"

    - The AAW general privacy policy may be found through this link

    - AAW online privacy policy is provided in detail on this page
     
  18. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    It is not new.

    On page 1. of the 2009 Directory you will find the following:
    "Use of this directory is strictly limited to personal use by AAW members"


    If you have a 2008 Directory you will find the following printed in the forepart on page 42:

    Directory Policy and Procedures

    K. Journal / Editor / Publications

    10. . . . . "The Resource Directory is intended solely for the use of AAW members, and any use of its contents as a mailing list or a source of member's names, addresses, and telephone numbers for commercial or charitable purposes, is strictly prohibited except by consent of the Board."

    [Edit: I checked the AAW site and found the same policy section is listed in the on-line description of the 2009 Directory http://www.woodturner.org/products/resource_dir/ however the print copy I received does not have the two pages of content listed on the web page.]

    A copy of the AAW Policy and Procedures is, I believe, available from the AAW office for a minimal charge.

    Strictly speaking, because the term "mailing list" and the phrase regarding use of names etc. "for commercial or charitable purpose" are separated by the alternative word "or", the text seems to indicate that use as a mailing list is prohibited for any purpose.

    Let's also be clear, I post this because it was requested, but to bait or accuse anyone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  19. Curtis Thompson

    Curtis Thompson

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    Thanks Ed,

    I still can't find the statement that Mark is referring to. Maybe it's some sort of interpretation of the policy, but I'm going to need it spelled out better than trying to read between the lines. Mark was very specific in his language.

    Maybe someone should update the policy to include specific language that AAW members can't compile list from the directory for their use.

    Thanks
     
  20. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Please accept my apology Vaughn; BTW, did you take advantage of Laguna's offer(s)? In this day of shipping "robbery" that's a sweet deal.
     
  21. glenkey

    glenkey

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    What if...

    the owner of Laguna is an AAW member that recieves the directory?
    I already know Mark, he/she can't use it for commerical ads, legally.:D
    And yes I know if caught he/she could face a LOT of trouble.:cool2:
     
  22. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Mas?

    http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=8017&page=2 at No. 12

    o menos?

    PS: On second thought, Glen, were you actually asking me a question?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  23. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    I also got the same email. Frankly I dont care. I glanced at it and it was of no interest so I hit that magic delete button. I would rather get an email from a woodturning related company than all the Viagra and drugs by mail, and size really matters spam. So if a few interprising woodturners copy down my email and use it? So what unless they get obnoxious? And since many of us KNOW the people who own and run these outfits if you dont like it give them a call and ask to be removed. Try calling or emailing size matters or others and you have just validated your email addy.
     
  24. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    All good points, Kelly. ;)
     
  25. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Excellent post Kelly, I couldn't agree more. Everyone has some form of "spam" blocker on their Email program.
     
  26. Owen Lowe

    Owen Lowe

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    Yes, but that really misses the point. You are excusing the burglar because the homeowner didn't lock the door.

    The issue is that, if the membership list is being used for other than private purposes, the person lifting the info is violating their membership agreement with the AAW. We all agree to the terms and conditions the AAW sets forth when we pay the membership fee. If it's something a member can not abide, then on an ethical basis they need to drop their membership.

    You may think it a petty issue and don't see the benefits and responsibility of "for private purposes only"; some of us do.
     
  27. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    I have spam blocking and filtering, but I don't have them cranked up very high, as every filtering program I've used mistakenly flags some "good" messages as spam. I mentioned in my first post, the message was already in my Junk Mail folder. I wouldn't have even noticed this one had I not been doing a quick glance at the addresses as I was in the process of deleting the couple thousand messages in my Junk Mail folder.

    This isn't a case of the burglar getting in because I left the door unlocked. It's more like someone stole the keys to my house and came in uninvited. They didn't take anything, but they came in nonetheless.

    Just to be clear, I have no objection to getting e-mail from Laguna. As Kelly said, it's much better than a lot of the other junk that I get. My issue is that whoever is sending it is using an address that I've NOT authorized for this use. I should only get AAW-related information or personal e-mail from AAW members on this account. Anything beyond that is criminal in my opinion. Y'all are welcome to your own. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  28. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Well Owen and Vaughn, you both miss the point i.e. You already have an Internet presence. Any enterprising "techy" can find you whenever they want. As to it being a legitimate company such as Laguna (which probably has a Membership Directory) or even if they don't have a Directory probably have the right to send you spam. For instance; have you ever visited Laguna's website? Have you ever purchased anything from Laguna? Get my point? Start to worry when a Triple XXX website sends you spam.
     
  29. Barry Elder

    Barry Elder

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    Well, I don't have a lot of common sense so I'm not going to be concerned about using my Resource Journal as I see fit. Otherwise, from what I have read, using the info in the Resource Journal to contact members in my area of the State to invite them to form a non-profit club to develop our woodturning skills must be in violation of someone's interpretation of someone's opinion concerning someone's privacy policy.:D Hahahahahahahahahhahahah!!! (Please do not be offended at my attempt at tongue-in-cheek humor.)
     
  30. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    With all due respect, you're the one missing the point. Someone is using this address in an unauthorized manner. Doesn't matter if it's for tools or pills, it's being used in a manner for which is is not offered.

    I have visited the Laguna website, but I did not give them an e-mail address, ESPECIALLY my AAW-specific address. (I have over one hundred addresses.) I have not purchased anything from them. They DO have my snail mail address, since I gave it to them at a woodworking show, and in fact I'm pretty sure they also have a legit e-mail address for me as well. As I said, I don't mind getting advertising from Laguna. I do object, however, to them using the address they did, since it shows me that SOMEONE has given it to them, and it wasn't authorized by me. If they want to send me ads legitimately, they can use one of several addresses that I DO make public. You're right...I'm easy to find on the web. But my AAW address, used for anything other than the situations I mentioned in my previous posts, is NOT for them or anyone else to use.

    Apparently many folks don't have a problem with the AAW Resource Guide being used for non-AAW purposes. Sorry, but I do. I'm kinda funny that way.

    Ah well, it's a moot point now. My AAW-specific address is now null and will only bounce back to the sender. I've also removed it from the online Resource Directory (along with any other contact info). Come next year, it won't show up in the printed directory either. If anyone in the AAW needs to get in touch with me, as I said, I'm enough easy to find.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  31. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Well there, I think you finally got the message Vaughn. Since only 13,000 + had your AAW Email address chances of that getting around weren't very slim. Thanks for your persistance.
     
  32. Owen Lowe

    Owen Lowe

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    You still don't get the point.

    Just because it's easy to copy and paste (or transcribe) something doesn't mean it's OK for you or anyone else to use it for whatever desire is out there. I provided information to AAW with the assurance it would not be available for anything other than private communication.

    If Mr. Laguna wants to send me a private message that is not commercial in nature, I would have no problem with that. Just because a message has something to do with woodturning is no excuse to use the member contact info as you please.

    On the other side of the coin, you are bound by the restricting agreement set forth by AAW when you sought membership. Why do you so easily absolve actions of those who are violating the responsibilities of membership?
     
  33. Vaughn

    Vaughn

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    Nah, he's just trolling. Just took me too long to figure it out. ;)

    BTW Garmar, I'm guessing 12,980+ of those members are willing to abide by the rules they signed up for, and thus wouldn't be using that address for marketing. The rest of you aren't.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  34. AlanZ

    AlanZ Resident Techno Geek

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    Owen,

    "Just because it's easy to copy and paste (or transcribe) something doesn't mean it's OK for you or anyone else to use it for whatever desire is out there."

    I agree. This also goes to the heart of copying anything. For example, I have purchased all of the music on my iPods. The photos on my web site were made by me, or used with permission, or display photos via the original url (not copies).

    For years, I was a commercial photographer... controling the rights to copy and use my work was exactly what I was selling.

    Unfortunately, these days people just don't think about the ethics of copying. People copy everything from music, to pictures used in their forum avatars... all without permission of the copyright holder.

    I'm not trying to start a discussion about the legalities of copying information/music/graphics on the net for personal or commercial purposes.

    I'm just saying that good people copy and use things all of the time because it doesn't occur to them that they are doing something wrong.

    edit: I refined some of the wording in my last sentence.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  35. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Good point, Alan.

    Perhaps AAW needs to make the prohibition on use of the personal information more prominent in the On-line Directory as well as in the print version.

    The idea is to get The Idea across to users rather than just providing a means or justification for going after them. The problem becomes how to do that yet still maintain a welcoming atmosphere of inclusiveness.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  36. Stuart Johnson

    Stuart Johnson

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    Any others?

    Have any others received the Laguna email to an AAW specific address? The one in question from 9/14 was followed up with two others regarding the special offer. I get them because I purchased a sander awhile back. The bottom of the message does have a link that will allow you to cancel any further emails.

    I don't like spam (well I do fried with light mayo) but it is a fact of life. And, from time to time I have found some of it useful but the vast majority is handled with the delete key. Not all unsolicited email is necessarily spam. What is spam to one might just be information to another.

    Vaughan, have you made a formal request to the ED to investigate with Laguna on how your AAW email address was obtained?
     
  37. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Excellent post Stuart. I would like to know if anyone else has received email(s) from Laguna. And as to Alan's post, I agree 100%. All of my material(s) from business to personal are 100% purchased. Since I don't create avatars, I don't post any.
    Some time ago; contained in the "hidden" AAW files, I was threatened by a "loyalist" that my Internet address/personal information would be plastered all over the Internet because I didn't agree with him/her. So far an idle threat, but I took it seriously. As far as to what has happened here with Mr Vaugh, I understand his/her concerns, but frankly its much to do about nothing. If there was a serious breech MANY more than Mr. Vaughn would have been compromised. So far this seems to be one more example of unsolicited email, anyone ever get any of that?
     
  38. davidwalser

    davidwalser

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    Unlike Mr. Vaughn, most of us did not create a unique email address that is used for use with JUST the AAW. So, while I too received the Laguna email, I've no way of knowing whether Laguna's use of my email address could be traced somehow to a violation of AAW's privacy/usage policy. Mr. Vaughn's situation is different -- he knows that Laguna's use of his AAW-only email address involved a breach of AAW's rules. Just as he knew the solicitation he received to join woodturnersforum involved such a violation.

    Now, what Mr. Vaughn does not know and, as far as I can recall, makes no claim of knowing, is who violated AAW's policies in the use of his email address. Laguna may have thought it was using a "clean" email list. (Indeed, I presume that was the case.) But, since Mr. Vaughn only gave that email address to the AAW, the ONLY way Laguna could have gotten the address was for somebody to have violated the rules. Some well meaning member may have thought Mr. Vaughn would be interested in an offer from Laguna and thoughtfully signed him up to receive emails from the firm. Or, another member may have sent an email to Mr. Vaughn and a handful other members and one of those other members forwarded the email to several more people without first deleting the email addresses of the original recipients and, after several more rounds of forwarding, someone "harvested" the emails. We just don't know how the email address made it from AAW's database onto Laguna's email list.

    So, Gary, while it's possible that Laguna's use of Mr. Vaughn's email address was somehow related to the misuse of that same address in the woodturnersforum solicitation, that's only one of several possibilities. I don't think the two incidents are related. The two events are too close together in time -- it usually takes several weeks to compile an email list.
     
  39. Garmar

    Garmar

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    Those 3 sentences kind of says it all, and I agree with what you have stated. However, it also amounts to nothing, quite frankly. I understand Mr. Vaughns concern, one can't be careful enough with Internet presence with all the fraud and abuse that takes place. Changing of ones email address, public profiles ect. is a good protection method. I must confess, I didn't receive the email from Laguna, yet.
     
  40. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    I've done the same. I don't need to be on someone else's targeted marketing list. I'm a target and on enough lists already.;)
     

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