Another accident

[Steven Antonucci]

Just a reminder about standing in the line of fire. New Jersey Woodturners got this e-mail from one of our member's wife:

Hi XXX...

This is XXX, Adrien's wife. I just wanted to let the group know that Adrien was badly injured when a plate he was turning flew off of the lathe and hit him in the head. (at least this is what the police and I were able to reconstruct. We found a few pieces of the plate but not all of them) Fractured skull, eye orbit fracture. He had facial reconstructive surgery and a plate in the frontal skull bone as the bone was shattered) on Saturday and had been in a drug induced coma until Sunday. He improved tremendously yesterday, but doesn't remember anything about the accident, except the fact that the plate he was turning was beautiful wood!

He had his helmet on and it was broken as we found pieces in the shop.

Please reiterate to the group the importance of wearing their helmets!!!!

He will be in the hospital for awhile, but sure he will be in touch when he is able.


Please be safe!

 

[Larry Komroff]

Wow. Glad he is improving. Safety is very important and hopefully not taken lightly. I hope we do not get any more reminders like this. Do you know what helmet Adrien was wearing?

 

[odie]

Too bad Adrien doesn't recall what happened. It would be good to have some idea of the causes for this accident to be something more of an example of "keeping out of the line of fire". We can learn by examining the causes of why the plate became a missile, as well as observing the standard precautionary procedures to protect oneself from injury, after the plate has already become a flying missile.......

Can it be assumed the plate broke apart? I ask that question, because I've had a couple of turnings come off the chuck/faceplate at high RPM. These don't tend to become a missile, but more like a spinning top that doesn't represent the kind of deadly threat that the plate in this incident obviously was.

If the plate broke apart, then the obvious thought is it was either due to structural failure of the wood itself.......or, induced by lack of tool control, or a "catch". Most pieces of wood that are in danger of coming apart have some indication that the possibility exists......a visual indication. Others give a warning by sound......tick, tick, tick. When you hear that, shut down immediately and investigate. When the visual indicates a possibility, I have my hockey helmet......but, I must admit that I don't always use it each and every time......only when the "pucker factor" is in evidence to a minimal degree.

I'd be willing to bet, that no matter how much other turners say they are always using precautions explicitly........most all of us cross the line and assume some risk at one point, or another. The truth is, there are times, usually only moments, where we all put ourselves in jeopardy........for a momentary optimal advantage of tool control, or visual advantage to the progress of the cut. A great deal of us are "results driven", and this necessarily means that there are times when absolute safety isn't' the most important thing on our minds.......meaning there will be a momentary lapse of absolute regard for safety.

So.......are we, as turners, never going to push the envelope?........or, are we going to always, without fail, never ever going to assume any risk?

Logic says most all of us will, at one time or another, do things that we know involve some amount of risk..........

We can minimize that risk, by reducing the likelihood of an injury.........or, we can be one of those who have all conceivable circumstances covered, under every single possibility, or even a remote possibility. One must either understand the human factor as applied to self, and use "reasonable" precaution........or cover all the bases under each and every possibility.......I admit that I'm one of the former, and this means that sometimes I except that I can't/don't completely eliminate all the risk, as long as some amount of advantage is perceived by assuming the risk.

It's reasonable to assume that the act of turning on a lathe, by it's very nature, means that risk is in the cards, even with those who are sticklers for absolute safety all the time........if we don't recognize this as an unavoidable part of the equation, there is always basket weaving, or knitting!

ooc

 

[Ian Thorn]

Hi all the best for a full recovery for Adrien it is sad when we hear about someone getting badly injured in their workshop,it's good he was wearing saftey gear did it include a face shield of what kind ,it would be a good safety talk for clubs if we can have an update on the cause if it is found. get well soon and back in the shop mate & Adriens wife thanks for posting it is a leason for us all to take care please keep us updated to his progress.

Ian

 

[Alan Lester]

I'm a relatively new turner,2 plus years, so this question may be naive. Why do so many people turn bowls on spindle lathes? The nature of this style of machine puts you in danger considerably more often then a bowl lathe. Not to mention the leaning/reaching over position.
When I decided I wanted to upgrade my lathe I looked at several brands and chose a bowl lathe figuring if I had any spindle work I could use my old lathe. My new lath was very reasoble at $2900 deliverd to Canada, made in USA, brand new.
I find I do the vast majority of my work standing at the end of the lathe. Out of the "line of fire". When stuff goes flying I'm more of a spectater then a partisapent.
I'd be interested in any comments.

Alan Lester

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'm a relatively new turner,2 plus years, so this question may be naive. Why do so many people turn bowls on spindle lathes? The nature of this style of machine puts you in danger considerably more often then a bowl lathe. Not to mention the leaning/reaching over position.
When I decided I wanted to upgrade my lathe I looked at several brands and chose a bowl lathe figuring if I had any spindle work I could use my old lathe. My new lath was very reasoble at $2900 deliverd to Canada, made in USA, brand new.
I find I do the vast majority of my work standing at the end of the lathe. Out of the "line of fire". When stuff goes flying I'm more of a spectater then a partisapent.
I'd be interested in any comments.

Alan Lester

How are you differentiating between a "bowl" lathe and a "spindle" lathe. I know of only two lathes that have bowl in their name, the Vega Bowl Lathe and the VB36 Bowl Lathe. Some lathes may be better than others for bowl turning because of certain features. I turn lots of things on my lathes, but bowls and spindles are down near the bottom of the list. I have turned on many different lathes and never had to lean over one to perform any operation.

The "line of fire" is more folklore than fact. Don't make the mistake of assuming that you are safe if not standing directly to the side of a rotating piece of wood. The mythical "line of fire" would be the area of highest probability of pieces of wood flying off, but when a piece separates, it is not a clean simple separation like you might find in an elementary physics demonstration. Pieces are interlocked and there is usually some action like interacting with a gouge all of which exert forces that change the direction of flight. Also, faceshields provide little to no protection for high speed flying pieces of wood. The best practices are to verify the integrity of the wood periodically, listen for sound changes, turn at a slow speed, and watch where you poke the gouge.

 

[Brian McInturff]

Lathe speed typically lead to these accidents. More hp seems to cause people to want to use it. I finally after much time away from the lathe got some time this past weekend to do some turning. I turn on a Stubby so I have more than enough horses. I turned the entire outside shape on a piece of FBE at 300rpm. It took longer but not all that much longer. I just slowed down how fast I advanced the bowl gouge. There was a time when I would've cranked up the speed once I had the blank balanced to just under vibration mode. No sense in doing it. Sharp tools and patience go a long way to being safe.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Lathe speed typically lead to these accidents.

Absolutely. You want folklore, it's "faster the spin finer the finish." Staying out of the way is the first and most important part of staying safe, second is to keep the energy low. Strangely oriented internal imperfections can be exacerbated by simple centrifugal force without the addition of the tool if you spin fast enough.

Spindle lathe means as much as spindle gouge - a name. One spins it, one slices. Turning over the ways on a conventional setup with the tailstock in place is a great safety enhancement. The piece is not held by the chuck alone until it's at its lightest and most balanced. People who talk about "standing at the end" are hopefully talking about looking into the single-place supported piece along the axis of rotation. From their postings, I fear many like to stand to the side, in that disintegration zone, and worse, pushing the tool into rather than along the rotating piece.

 

[hockenbery]

I begin most bowl between centers using the tail stock and a spur drive.
This allows the shifting of the tail center to balance grain or the heights of natural edges.

Once the outside is shaped, chuck tenon turned, and any surface improvement made
It put it in the chuck and still use the tailstiock until it gets in the way.

1. There are no "line of fire" issues. I"m positioned in about the same place I would be if I had the bowl at the end of a sliding headstock lathe or on a bowl lathe.
The gouge and it's handle have to travel the same path to cut with the bevel riding. Hollowing on a bowl lathe lets you engage your body in the turning as the handle is not over the ways.

2. A bowl lathe and body armor are no substitute for sound turning fundamentals.

things that make me safer
I turn with the right hand forward on the outside of the bowl. The chips never hit me.
Have a remote switch so I can start and stop the lathe at the headstock or tailstock.
Wear a face shield.
I inspect my wood carefully and listen for cracks.

A face shield definitely saves a lot of hospital visits and has made many serious injuries less serious.
A face shield does not make you invincible. If something hits you in the head hard enough the injury to the brain is from it bouncing around inside your skull.
So with a helmet and face shield you can get a life threatening injury and not have a cut or bruise outside. Many of the serious injuries happen when wood detaches from the bowl. These are often sharp, have some mass.


Inspect your wood when you cut the blank, frequently when roughing, before you put it in the chuck, before you cut the walls to thickness.
Avoid too high a speed
Wear a face shield
Get a remote switch
Learn to turn with either hand forward.
Learn proper techniques.
Have fun
Be safe

Al

 

[JerrySambrook]

Another addition is to wear the face shield properly.
How many times have we all seen someone just don the shield and have a huge gap at the bottom, between out chest and the bottom of the shield.
Or put it on with the headgear loose.

There actually is a proper way to don the headgear as well.

 

[Rob Wallace]

Injured turner is home from the hospital....

A recent post on Woodcentral-Turning indicates that Adrien has improved well enough to be released from the hospital.

Over time we may learn more details about what happened. If the information about this accident is sufficiently detailed and accurate, it may serve as a good case study to disseminate and learn from. THIS is how such information can best be used for future safety efforts.

A continuation of this thread on WC:

http://www.woodcentral.com/woodworking/forum/turning.pl/page/1/md/read/id/468610/sbj/adrien-is-home/

A further response about "Safety and the AAW" here:

http://www.woodcentral.com/woodwork...e/1/md/read/id/468647/sbj/safety-and-the-aaw/

It is good to know that Adrien is recovering and wants to get back to the lathe. I am sure his perspective on woodturning safety likely has changed after this incident. Hopefully everyone's will too without having to go through physical trauma to get the point across!

Rob

 

[John Van Domelen]

Good advice Al.

I received my wake up call last year, my facesheild was the only thing that kept me out of an ER. Suffered only some broken nose cartilage. I refuse to turn without one and my safety glasses on.

 

[Ian Thorn]

I think Als post covers it very well ,the only thing i would add is get a face shield that has a good safety rating and throat protection it may cost a bit more but if you do get hit it may cost you less.

Ian

 

[Art pfenn]

The first time I was hit in the face with a 3 pound block I was lucky because I was wearing a face shield. The shield did buckle and I thought I broke my nose but only bruised it. After that I read the post by odie about the woman that suffered severe facial damage and heeded odie's advise. I went out and bought a used lacrosse helmet for $5 dollars. Since that time I have had another piece fly off. It missed my face but had it hit me I would have been saved. Anytime I am not working between centers I put it on. It may look stupid but it's not stupid to be safe. If you have ever had a piece fly off think what it would have done if it had hit you instead of the floor. Go back and read the injuries that have been reported and ask if simply a helmet would have saved the persons face.

 

[Rob Wallace]

"...... it's not stupid to be safe."

Maybe this is not a statement that we could use in a safety logo (!), but it captures the sentiment very well!

TURN SAFELY!

Rob

 

[ray hampton]

What do you think about a steel cage that mount to the housing behind the wood that you are turning , mount a fairly heavy round steel plate behind the chuck or faceplate, then install the sides of the cage one piece at a time which would direct the wood if it broke while it was turning ?
I started this post and my computer went off for a split of a second, just long enough for the computer clock to go back to August 2004 but the tv set and microwave time stay correct [second time this week ] so according to the computer, this post TOOK 9 YEARS

 

[Bill Boehme]

What do you think about a steel cage that mount to the housing behind the wood that you are turning , mount a fairly heavy round steel plate behind the chuck or faceplate, then install the sides of the cage one piece at a time which would direct the wood if it broke while it was turning ?
I started this post and my computer went off for a split of a second, just long enough for the computer clock to go back to August 2004 but the tv set and microwave time stay correct [second time this week ] so according to the computer, this post TOOK 9 YEARS

So are you are saying that your post has been aged like a fine wine? Maybe your computer went through the space-time continuum and did some time traveling.

It sounds like you may be describing the cage that comes with the Powermatic 3520 lathe.

 

[Steven Antonucci]

It sounds like you may be describing the cage that comes with the Powermatic 3520 lathe.

Do you mean the cage that every Powermatic users takes off immediately and throws away (or converts to a tool rack?)?

S

 

[Mark Mandell]

Do you mean the cage that every Powermatic users takes off immediately and throws away (or converts to a tool rack?)?

S

No. It's the one everybody leaves in the box.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I still have the one from my Delta that I bought 30+ years ago up in the rafters of the garage. No quarrel with the screen section, but that plastic was impossible to live with. Distorted the view when it allowed it at all. Which was only when turning dry wood. I don't armor up to turn like some, but I'd take an adjustable cage as possibly useful. At least it wouldn't interfere. Wouldn't make it shiny chrome though, but flat black so as to visually disappear.

 

[AlanZ]

The ideal material for the cage would be (the hard to find) transparent aluminum. <Vbg>. Mr. Scott would approve.

 

[Lou Kinsey]

I will admit to dragging my powermatic cage off the shelf after Lynn Yamaguchi's accident and installing it. Using it. Has already stopped one bowl after a nasty catch. Walnut has ugly mustard yellow all over it but I wasn't touched. My wife is happier. Yes, it's frustrating at times, but I want to be doing this for a very long time going forward.

 

[ray hampton]

So are you are saying that your post has been aged like a fine wine? Maybe your computer went through the space-time continuum and did some time traveling.

It sounds like you may be describing the cage that comes with the Powermatic 3520 lathe.

NO, from what I see on the PM 3520 , it cage are mounted on the back of the lathe so that it can be swing out of the way while my idea cage will be mounted behind the face plate or the chuck and would surround the chuck or faceplate

 

[Mark Mandell]

NO, from what I see on the PM 3520 , it cage are mounted on the back of the lathe so that it can be swing out of the way while my idea cage will be mounted behind the face plate or the chuck and would surround the chuck or faceplate

Ray, you seem to be describing a bowl shaped cage that would have to envelop the workpiece as well. Seems like it would then be impossible to work as you'd have to be reaching around the screen to even touch the wood.

 

[ray hampton]

Ray, you seem to be describing a bowl shaped cage that would have to envelop the workpiece as well. Seems like it would then be impossible to work as you'd have to be reaching around the screen to even touch the wood.

the sides of this cage would be removed to do the outside edge of the turning but replaced when turning across the wood and that would not involve reaching around the screen

 

[Bill Boehme]

Do you mean the cage that every Powermatic users takes off immediately and throws away (or converts to a tool rack?)?

No, I am talking about the one that gets used as a basket for cooking french fries or fish in a large vat of oil. Of course, so window screen might need to be added to keep things from falling through.

the sides of this cage would be removed to do the outside edge of the turning but replaced when turning across the wood and that would not involve reaching around the screen

I am probably not visualizing what you are thinking about very well, but it does seem to me that the PM thing really is a decent solution because it meets the primary objective of being positioned so that it blocks the trajectory between the spindle and your head. I've always considered my head to be a useful appendage that ought to be protected mainly because that is where my mouth is located.

I get the impression that what you are describing would basically stop things from flying off in any direction. If so, I do not see going that far as being necessary or even desirable.

 

[Mark Mandell]

I've always considered my head to be a useful appendage that ought to be protected mainly because that is where my mouth is located.

First lesson in Kendo was: "Don't offer your head as a target."