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2436 spindle noise question (clattering)

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I have an older 2436 that I have been very happy with for a number of years (12) of pretty much daily use (7 days a week). Overall I have loved it.

Don't want to get into it too much, but I have a somewhat newer 2436 (bought new as a backup lathe) that I have tried a couple new spindles in (different reasons) that have a clatter sound at rpms of say 1600 rpm and up. Both new spindles sound about the same. Really bothers me and my older 2436 (and another older 2436 I have listened to recently with this in mind) doesn't have any of the clatter. So I don't even think about the lathe while I turn.

Here's my question: Has anyone notices a clattering rattle sort of sound in their new 2436 at say 2000 rpms and up that went away with time? I would not expect this, but I don't want to put the lathe into storage if it might get quieter, as it has never yet turned wood.

Please don't turn this into a this lathe vs that lathe debate --I am just kind of desparate for any relevant info as I am out of options. Feel free to email or call me to spare forum bandwidth.
 
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Gee whiz Bill, Throw some wood on the sucker and give it a go. If it does not go away Oneway will make it right for you. If not raise a bit of cain. My 2436 has now about 12 years and I am starting to hear bearing noise and a bit of vibration. So its getting close to time to get new bearings. But new ones are either good or bad. But probably are going to run hot till broke in. If they torqed the bearing load to tight (which I doubt) it could make plenty of noise. Make some chips my friend. Nothing to lose and everything to gain.
 
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Gee whiz Bill, Throw some wood on the sucker and give it a go. If it does not go away Oneway will make it right for you. If not raise a bit of cain. My 2436 has now about 12 years and I am starting to hear bearing noise and a bit of vibration. So its getting close to time to get new bearings. But new ones are either good or bad. But probably are going to run hot till broke in. If they torqed the bearing load to tight (which I doubt) it could make plenty of noise. Make some chips my friend. Nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Oneway says they can't help me further. I PM'd more gory details to spare the forum.
 
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Bill,

Just a few thoughts:

Have you checked for any looseness in the upper and lower pulleys? Does the noise still exist if there is little tension on the belt - just the weight of the motor? Have you tried running the motor through the speed range with no belt to ensure it is not a motor noise that is fooling the ear as being in the spindle? Are you sure there is nothing rattling inside the spindle's bore?
 
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Bill,

Just a few thoughts:

Have you checked for any looseness in the upper and lower pulleys? Does the noise still exist if there is little tension on the belt - just the weight of the motor? Have you tried running the motor with no belt to ensure it is not a motor noise that is masked as being in the spindle? Are you sure there is nothing rattling inside the spindle's bore?

Oh yeah. I've got many hours of trying things over 5 months. Tried all the usual things including trying every combination of 3 spindles and three heastocks and two lathe bodies. For example, something I tried first swapping the complete headstocks between lathes. The old headstock sounded fine on the newer lathe (just like on the older lathe) and the newer headstock sounded exactly the same on the older lathe (clattery at high rpm). In other words each headstock/spindle sounded the same regardless of which body (motor, etc) it was on. Because naturally I first suspected something rattling other than the spindle itself.

I realize that when most folks say they have a clattery spindle I suspect it is simply the tensioning rod on the motor rattling, but I assure you I am way past that.

In fact at one point I bought a complete new headstock with spindle from Oneway just to put the issue behind me. The inboard threads had a serious problem, so I eventually got another spindle set which was the same both in terms of sound and threads (the wonky thread which prevented chucks from seating I was able to fix myself).

Basically the clatter really only picks up strong at around maybe 1800 rpm on the top pulley range and gets more insistet with higher rpms.. Tension on belt doesn't matter. Motor on full speed without belt sounds fine.

I am certainly open to any other suggestions for things to try.
 
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2436 noise

Bill,
With every thing you’ve tried over the last five months I can’t imagine I could come up with something new. Your noise seems to follow the head stock. Have you tried a mechanics stethoscope? I bought one years ago, it sure is easier to use then the old screwdriver in the ear trick. (Thumb on end of handle, thumb pressed against ear, screwdriver blade touched against suspected noisemaker) Don’t know what your noise is but this might help track it down…
Ps. Safety alert, a stethoscope also gets you farther away from spinning stuff.
Clifton
 
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You've probably already tried, but if not, release the belt tension completely and turn the spindle by hand trying to feel if there are any little bumps or catches or points of resistance, or even what feels like a smooth excess resistance to turning. Little bumps of resistance could mean either debris in the bearings, or brinnelled bearing races. Excess smooth resistance could be caused by too much preload on the bearings. I would expect that the new bearings and seals of the newer lathe would require more effort to turn than the older machine, but not an arm tiring amount.

Another you've probably already checked, are the motor and headstock pulleys correctly aligned? Misalignent of the pulleys can cause strange noises as the belt trys to walk. Pulley setscrews tight? Is the rpm range that the noise occurs in an area of range overlap? If so, does the noise occur at the same rpm in both ranges?

Hearing the noise would be a big help in coming up with ideas.

Not knowing the details of the assembly, and assuming that the headstock uses a pair of tapered roller bearings or angular contact ball bearings;

With a medium weight wooden mattet, and the lathe running at the speed that causes the noise, give the end of the spindle a light to medium axial tap on first one end and then the other. Do not bash it to the point of causing bearing damage, and do not tap it with the spindle not turning. It could be that the bearing races have a bit of misalingment in the housing, and tapping things will help seat them and quiet the noise.

Another thought, put a block of wood between the spindle and tailstock with only sufficient pressure to retain the wood, and bring the rpm's up to the point that the noise occurs. Let the lathe run for an extended period of time (several hours) in this condition. The extended running will warm the spindle bearings and spindle up more so than the housing, causing a lengthwise expansion and possibly correcting any race misalignment issues during the expansion and subsequent cooling contraction.

If the tapping or heating and cooling does make a slight correction of the bearing seating and quiet things down, it may be neccessary to check and/or adjust the preload on the bearings.

Later,
Dale M
 
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Clattering - percolating?

When my 2436 was new it made a slight "percolating" sound when turning at higher speeds. The sound was more of a curiosity than a concern. That "percolating" sound has diminished over the years (8yr). Still the sound is more of a curiosity than a concern.

The noise appears to bother you a LOT. Changing headstocks such is a big deal which you is likely to impact your chance of trusting and enjoying the lathe.

I know if I were to have gone through 5 months of diagnoses without any "positive" result I would be very frustrated.
 
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You've probably already tried, but if not, release the belt tension completely and turn the spindle by hand trying to feel if there are any little bumps or catches or points of resistance, or even what feels like a smooth excess resistance to turning. Little bumps of resistance could mean either debris in the bearings, or brinnelled bearing races. Excess smooth resistance could be caused by too much preload on the bearings. I would expect that the new bearings and seals of the newer lathe would require more effort to turn than the older machine, but not an arm tiring amount.

Another you've probably already checked, are the motor and headstock pulleys correctly aligned? Misalignent of the pulleys can cause strange noises as the belt trys to walk. Pulley setscrews tight? Is the rpm range that the noise occurs in an area of range overlap? If so, does the noise occur at the same rpm in both ranges?

Hearing the noise would be a big help in coming up with ideas.

Not knowing the details of the assembly, and assuming that the headstock uses a pair of tapered roller bearings or angular contact ball bearings;

With a medium weight wooden mattet, and the lathe running at the speed that causes the noise, give the end of the spindle a light to medium axial tap on first one end and then the other. Do not bash it to the point of causing bearing damage, and do not tap it with the spindle not turning. It could be that the bearing races have a bit of misalingment in the housing, and tapping things will help seat them and quiet the noise.

Another thought, put a block of wood between the spindle and tailstock with only sufficient pressure to retain the wood, and bring the rpm's up to the point that the noise occurs. Let the lathe run for an extended period of time (several hours) in this condition. The extended running will warm the spindle bearings and spindle up more so than the housing, causing a lengthwise expansion and possibly correcting any race misalignment issues during the expansion and subsequent cooling contraction.

If the tapping or heating and cooling does make a slight correction of the bearing seating and quiet things down, it may be neccessary to check and/or adjust the preload on the bearings.

Later,
Dale M

Dale,

All good suggestions, and it sounds like you are a lot more knowledgeable than me with machinery. I am handier with wood than bearings and such.

There are two new spindles in question, and both sound about the same altlhough they are from the same batch (both have wonky threads, for example). They turn very smooth to the hand, although a touch more resistance to turning due to them being new (old ones have may thousands of hours on them). And both bearings in each run slightly warm at speed which seems like a good sign.

I haven't run it for long periods with a block between centers, but I did do that a bit and the sound itself was similar the same either way although very slightly worse with pressure from the tailstock. I'll try it for longer. I have run the latest spindle (the one I got the threads doctored up to run chucks true) off and on at various speeds and reverse for probably 6 or 8 hours total and the sound is not improving (actually it seems to be getting louder but I can't be sure).

In terms of dealing with actual preload, I am not equiped to do that. The way the 2436 bearings come the preload is determined by spacers in the inboard headstock cap which comes already bolted to the spindle on that end. The outboard bearings are designed to float back and forth in the outboard carrier with heat expansion. For whatever reason, when I loosed the outboard and endboard headstock cap bolts while the lathe is running, the sound is slightly better. Might just be because the sound is not as well transmitted to the headstock for amplification, I don't know.

In terms of the pulley alignment, that was something I tried to figure out from the start. Can't really see clearly if they are aligned perfectly, but they look close. I did notice that on the last two spindles, the pulleys are in slightly different positions relative to the bearings as compared to eachother. About 3/8 inch.

In terms of overlapping pulley ranges, that is something I tried way back when and I just went out and tried it again to make sure. The sound is the similar at say 1800 rpm either the middle or high pulley. I have compared sounds so many times now that small differences get harder to be definite about.

I probably should get a stethoscope and try to track it down more, but I've already spent about 20 hours total messing with the problem over the 5 months (and many more hours thinking about it whether I wanted to or not) and I don't have enough time to fool with it much more. One more thing I will try later today is to switch complete headstocks again between lathes and listen really closely. I don't expect that to be different than before, but maybe I could learn something about the sound.

I am told that Oneway went to double spindle bearings a while back and I can't help but wonder if that changed the sound. Doesn't seem like it should. But even with a new headstock and spindle complete, it doesn't sound anything like my older ones at higher rpms.

I am probably going to record it again this weekend with a camera video, but it's hard to hear much on small computer speakers. I did record the first spindle, which I believe was the loudest of the three spindles but Kevin said he couldn't tell the difference between lathes so I am not sure the vid is helpful.

If you are curious, that recording trying to show Kevin a difference between the sounds of the old and new lathes (and not particularly well I guess) can be seen the link below. Any feedback is welcome. The difference between the two different sounds is much more noticeable in person in part because of the way small cameras tend to automatically adjust down louder volumes, as vistors to my studio can attest. They have agreed the second lathe sounded awful. Someone pointed out I am trying to talk much louder at the second lathe, and I am going to try it again with a small radio on the lathe that will produce a steady sound. On the first lathe the radio gets harder to hear of course, but with the second lathe the radio gets competely drowned out.

http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/1/0Z-8npb9wbM

I generally turn with earplugs, and with my oldest lathe basically I just hear the wood being cut and background whirring. With the second lathe even with the new spindle, I am very aware of the noise from the spindle and can't really get into my happy place.
 
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Bill,

It is difficult to gather a enough info from the recording to make a confident guess. It was easy to hear the difference in the volume of the noise and to hear that it was more metallic in nature. I did not hear a sound that I would attribute to either a loose pulley or a belt alignment issue. I did not hear a sound that immediatly sounded like a brinnelled bearing.

From your description of the headstock assmebly, there are three bearings. Two tapered roller or angular contact at the inboard end contained within the bearing cap as a cartridge. The preload between these two is set at the factory with some type of spacer arrangement. The third bearing then, is at the outboard end, with the outer race free to float in the bearing cap bore. This bearing is likely a typical single row ball bearing.

A stethoscope may be helpfull in determining the end of the headstock the noise is coming from, and in comparison with the other lathe, the difference in the noise from each end.

While it is possible that having the bearing cap bolts loose reduced the sound level by less transmission to the headstock, it is also possible that there is a location issue with the bearing on the shaft at the outboard end. If the bearing's position on the spindle has the outer race at the extent of the provision for 'float', then there will be an unwanted thrust against the bearing. A typical single row ball bearing can handle some thrust, but it is not designed for heavy thrust loads, and in the design as I understand it, there should not be any thrust on the bearing in the outboard end.

The similarities in sound between the original and the replacement headstock assemblies does point to a design change being the cause of the difference between the older machine and the newer one. Having said that though, the noise does not sound like a healthy machine.

My gues at this point is that there is either a preload issue between the pair of bearings at the inboard end, or more likely, a position issue with the bearing at the outboard end.

Ohio is a bit far for a drive over to take a look.

One check that you might try; With a dial indicator attached to the top of the headstock housing, and the point of the indicator on the spindle, with a reasonable length extension of some sort in the spindle taper, see if any play can be noted on the indicator when the spindle is lifted up and down. I would expect virtually no indicated play. A great deal would mean that there is no preload of the bearings.
 
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vibration

Almost every lathe has a resonance point. My 2436 starts to vibrate at 1200 rpm on the high speed pully and quits shorltly above that. Every lathe I know of have a built in resonance some where, some are more distinct than others.

Vernon
 
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Bill, I sent you a private reply but everything I said has been said here by others. But once again I would suggest you have nothing to lose to try to mess with the bearing situation yourself. and some that has been said here is beyond me and great advise. Good luck.
 
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A turner friend (who has had a older 2436 a long time himself) stopped by I haven't seen in a while and asked to hear the new lathe. I ran them both for him and he was amazed at the sound of the new one at higher rpms. "Unbelievable, no way anyone would want to turn on that " he told me. He figured maybe since I am a picky guy that I was just being too picky because you can't really tell how loud it is from the camera vid..

So I tried another vid with my 5d2 (first vid with it) in the hopes that the camera would not automatically decrease high volumes like the previous camera (s95). Unfortunately my 5d2 does the same thing, it wants all sound to be in a certain db range so it gets much less sensitive to louder volumes.

But here is that vid. Notice even though my face is right next to the camera mic (about 10 times as close as the headstock) at higher rpms my voice is drownd out. And you can't tell hear it wel on the vid, but I am continuing to talk during both higher rpms shown. Even though my mouth is inches from the microphone, it is mostly drowned out which shows how far down the camera adjusted in volume level. The radio was just an attempt to show how sounds get drowned out pretty quickly. I am not expecting to hear the radio at full rpm.

So not sure it this helps show how I am not exagerating the spindle noise at higher rpms (as compared to my other 2436 for example) but here is the link. If anyone heard this lathe themselves, I believe they would then understand why I am so unhappy and consider it unusable above 1600 rpm. In person it gets simply defeaning above 2k. No way I would be able to even sell the lathe, even though unused. To quote a friend from a couple weeks ago who is following the saga "you are so scr*wed."

http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/0/8xKUA8JTuCg
 
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Bill, Try to find a Db meter and tape the results. Showing both the old and the new lathe readings might get One Ways attention.
 

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So I tried another vid with my 5d2 (first vid with it) in the hopes that the camera would not automatically decrease high volumes like the previous camera (s95). Unfortunately my 5d2 does the same thing, it wants all sound to be in a certain db range so it gets much less sensitive to louder volumes.http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/0/8xKUA8JTuCg

Canon EOS 5DII is one nice camera. It appears, however, that you may not have the latest firmware update. There was such an uproar by professional videographers over the lack of manual gain control that Canon released a firmware update that enables one to choose between manual and auto rather than only AGC which is what all other DSLR cameras with HD video had. Anyway, you might check to see if your firmware is the latest version. If it is the latest version, there should be a menu item in the video settings that allows manual gain control via the top thumbwheel.

There was some complaining by 7D shooters to have the same feature, but since 7D users are generally not motion picture industry pros, that feature is unlikely to ever be implemented as a firmware update in the 7D.
 

Bill Boehme

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Can you isolate the noise to a particular part of the drive train? For example --

  • Motor running without belt
  • Motor running with belt in all pulleys
  • Motor speed where noise is worst
  • Spindle speed where noise is worst
If the noise is always the worst at 1800 RPM spindle speed regardless of which pulleys the belt is on, then it sounds like the problem is downstream of the motor in the drive train -- meaning something like the belt is defective, the grooves on the spindle pulley are not properly machined, warped spindle, warped pulley, bad bearings, improper preload on the bearings, wrong type of grease, too much grease, etc.

If the noise is the worst at a particular motor speed (which means different spindle speeds for different pulley ranges), then the problem would necessarily be the motor or electronic variable speed control. The motor could have a bent shaft, bad bearings, problem with the blower on the back of the motor such as bent blades or not dynamically balanced, faulty windings, etc. Is thee enough similarity between the old and new models that you could swap motors and electronic drives?

If the electronic drive on the new machine is different from the old one (and it almost certain to be different), it might be a cheapie. In many instances it is the electronic speed control that is responsible for intolerable noise from drive systems. One big factor is the PWM frequency that the system uses to create the synthesized three phase power to the motor. Top end controllers use a higher frequency in the range of 5 kHz to 8kHz. El cheapo controllers may run closer to 1 kHz to 3 kHz (right where our hearing is the most sensitive). The lower frequencies don't get completely filtered out by the inertia of the motor and can create some high frequency resonances in the motor and even further down the drive train.

One other thing -- if the motor isn't specifically rated for inverter duty, it is likely to gradually begin to fail electrically at internal points where the windings make sharp bends. Wire-to-wire arcing can occur at those points if the motor is not rated for inverter duty and gradually the efficiency of the motor will decrease and run hotter and hotter as the failure progresses. The motor will also begin making incresing amounts of noise as the problem progresses.
 
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Hi Bill,

In the second Youtube, I can hear some nasty stuff when the spindle is at low rpm's. I can hear it as it starts, and again as it stops. I do wish I could drive over and look and listen.

I'm going to send you a PM.

Later,
Dale M
 
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Hi Bill,

In the second Youtube, I can hear some nasty stuff when the spindle is at low rpm's. I can hear it as it starts, and again as it stops. I do wish I could drive over and look and listen.

I'm going to send you a PM.

Later,
Dale M


Yes, I agree nasty sounds. I have lived on a lathe for the last dozen years and I know what they should sound like. And at rpm it is much louder than it sounds on the video. Just not sure what to do about it at this point.

And I feel now that after maybe 20 hours of running, it sounds worse.

Very confusing, as that is a different headstock than the first headstock. They sold me that under the agreement they listen to it first. But unfortunately that and the next spindle had thread issues, too.

Buried earlier in the thread, when I switch headstocks, the weird sounds follow the headstocks. My old headstock on the newer lathe sound absolutely fine, so to me that means it has nothing to do with the motor in terms of noise. At least that is the way I read it. And the motor sound fine in the lower range at full motor rpm.

And the noisy headstock/spindles sound exactly as awful on the older lathe.

I do wish you could hear it in person, as I think you would feel my pain more than just a little youtube vid. And why I don't want to use that lathe for my work.
 

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I watched a couple of your videos and don't understand your rationale for having a loud radio going while trying to record the sound that the lathe is making. As an engineer who has done many investigations of system performance problems, I would recommend that the way to troubleshoot a problem is to remove as many variables as possible to simplify the troubleshooting process. While loudness level may be the particular annoyance that bother you the most, as far as conducting an investigation is concerned, it is mostly irrelevant at this point. Of far greater importance would be the subtle details of the sound -- in other words the sound that was being drowned out by the blaring radio.

Despite the background noise and difficulty in hearing the more subtle characteristics of the lathe sounds, I think that there was something like a high pitched growling whine at the high speed which would be indicative of PWM controller induced noise. If that is the case, the controller might not have been properly programmed. It is possible that your controller might allow you to set a higher PWM frequency. It is also possible that the motor has some internal arcing induced shorts that can produce rough torque ripple. All of this is just a WAG since the overall audio quality is crap. I would suggest plugging a decent close range dynamic mike into the camera rather than using the built-in mike. The camera's built-in mike is a high sensitivity type that will pick up room acoustics as well as the ambient background noise.

From what I heard, I agree that the sound is not quite "right".
 
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Bill,

I come from a machine-tool background and to me it sounds like a bearing issue. Now the cause of the bearing issue needs to be isolated whether it is the spindle cartridge or a headstock machining issue, alignment issues could be putting less than even side load on the bearings etc. Or possibly eliminate both as the cause.

If I owned the lathes I would pull the old spindle cartridge out of your older 2436 and install that in the newer 2436 headstock and put the newer spindle cartridge in the older headstock. If there is no noise in the newer lathe with the old spindle cartridge then it is more than likely in the spindle cartridge. Or if the noise goes to the older machine with the new spindle cartridge then that should pretty much isolate the problem. Now if the new machine still makes the noise with the older spindle cartridge and the older machine is fine with the newer spindle cartridge than I feel that points to machining on the headstock.

This is a lot of work and may not isolate the problem but if nothing else this could eliminate the spindle cartridge, headstock, or both.

Document this with your camera as you go so yo can submit this to Oneway to see if you can get satisfaction. I generally go pretty easy on manufactures as I understand there are people that are either overly picky or can screw up and anvil but I feel that you complaint from what I herd is valid no matter what you spent.

Good Luck


Alan
 
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Bill,

I come from a machine-tool background and to me it sounds like a bearing issue. Now the cause of the bearing issue needs to be isolated whether it is the spindle cartridge or a headstock machining issue, alignment issues could be putting less than even side load on the bearings etc. Or possibly eliminate both as the cause.

If I owned the lathes I would pull the old spindle cartridge out of your older 2436 and install that in the newer 2436 headstock and put the newer spindle cartridge in the older headstock. If there is no noise in the newer lathe with the old spindle cartridge then it is more than likely in the spindle cartridge. Or if the noise goes to the older machine with the new spindle cartridge then that should pretty much isolate the problem. Now if the new machine still makes the noise with the older spindle cartridge and the older machine is fine with the newer spindle cartridge than I feel that points to machining on the headstock.

This is a lot of work and may not isolate the problem but if nothing else this could eliminate the spindle cartridge, headstock, or both.

Document this with your camera as you go so yo can submit this to Oneway to see if you can get satisfaction. I generally go pretty easy on manufactures as I understand there are people that are either overly picky or can screw up and anvil but I feel that you complaint from what I herd is valid no matter what you spent.

Good Luck


Alan

Alan, Thanks for look at the vid and giving some feedback.

I have not switched the spindle in that vid between machines, but I did switch the one before. Sound followed spindle, although I did not run them long becaue with all this grief with spindles I was scared of messing up my working lathe which I am absolutely reliant on daily for my work. It has taken a while, but to be honest I have lost my confidence in OW. The only reason I have survived this saga with OW is that I have another lathe.

So my plan when I can find more time and the right headspace (this has been going on so long and OW so unconcerned that it has gotten to where dealing with it takes it's toll on me) to:

Upgrade the firmware on my camera to see if I can document the noises more accurately as I go.

Once again switch these complete headstocks between machines and document the sound follows the headstocks.

And like you suggest, switch this spindle and my working spindle and document. One big reason that this switch is not a "pure" test is that the inboard headstock bearing cap which is part of the headstock in a sense come pre bolted to the spindle. So I am switching part headstock along with the spindle. Beyond my pay grade to switch just spindles at this point. And this adds to the "risk" of getting any new spindle is that it relies on the spindle, 4 bearing, precision spacers, inboard encap and the assembly process itself to be all problem free.

My confusion in all this is: Both the previous spindle (that I bought with the new headstock) and the current spindle (replacement due to defective threading) sound about the same in either headstock Both sound much louder with terrible (to me) bearing noise while my old 2436 is serene.

And at $430 a pop just for the spindle cartridge with $100 shipping each way I am leary to order another one given the pattern, as I suspect the newer style bearings themselves.


If you could hear the lathe in person you would see why my dander gets up now when they say it's normal and there is nothing they can do for me.....The saga is eating me up a bit, and I am very close to giving up and scrapping the lathe unused. Unless they get engaged, I am left holding and have to move on whether I like it or not. I realize it's pretty unclassy for a professional turner to be whining on a forum, but with the price of buying another lathe being what it is I decided to raised the flag for any help or suggestions from forum members like yourself and Dale more knowledgeable on the subject.

I regularly hear they are going through tough times these days with qc, but with the advent of real competition I would have expected them to want to make it right esp for longtime 2436 advocates (which I have been). Sure problems can happen manufacturing any machine, but users need to have confidence that in the end they will be okay.
 
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Bill, its not a big job to take a spindle out. Sounds like you have done that. Unless Oneway has modified from the older to the newer. I like the idea of trying your older spindle in the new headstock. And Kevin is full of it if he thinks two spindles could not be bad from the same batch. You should not have had to shell out one dime. You should be given great service and you are not. Sorry its taking a toll on you. It would me also. I dont think you are whining. I think in desperation you are reaching out to others for help. And you are getting good advise. Oneway needs to follow through to make you happy though.
 

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I think that if you got a Robust, you would chunk rocks at your Oneway.

I was just wondering about the bearings. I believe that they use either angle ball or angle roller bearings, but don't know if they are the type that would have an external race pressed into the headstock. If so, it might be possible that the race is cocked a bit. If they are sealed bearings (which is more likely) then it is still possible that the recess has been machined slightly off axis. I think that Alan's suggestions are exactly the right steps to try to isolate the source of the noise.

Since you have clarified that the noise is more closely tied to spindle speed than to motor speed, that effectively rules out a problem with the motor and electronic drive.
 
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I should be doing real turning, but I lost some sleep thinking about what a pickle I am in.

So I am wasting more time this morning messing with the lathe. I upgraded my camera's firmware to allow manual volume levels and took a quick try at seeing if that way it showed how abnoxious the lathe gets at higher speeds any better than the previous vids. I am not sure if it is any clearer, as I have heard the lathe so much now it is engrained into my brain (and I don't mean that in a good way.)

With the lens the camera is a bit farther from the lathe than it might look, and I turned down the recording volume quite a bit to try to not distort the louder volumes.

So I kept my mouth close to the camera mic and tried to speak loudly.

This test was done stone cold, when the lathe warms up it is noticeably louder and more rattly yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IG4bwa_JuM

Well back to work now (thank god for my other lathe). Probably if I had a boss I'd be fired for spending so much time with the new lathe over the last 5 months with nothing to show for it ...
 
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After lunch I switched headstocks between my 2436 bodies. New headstock on old lathe and vice versa.

Recorded with camera with manual volume gain. To me each headstock sounds identical on each lathe. New headstock/spindle rattlywith lots of mechanical noise. Old headstock/spindle at this point soothing by comparison. High normal bearing sounds, belt noise but no rattle or weird sounds at any speed. My hope is that this rules out the motor, controller, lower pulley, belt, etc from the equation.

To me the difference in sound in person is huge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYwxxqkoFyg

Here's two short excerpts from that vid back to back. Without the starting and stopping I feel there is less info here, but I thought I'd try this to see if it helped show the difference.

http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/u/0/5aWv_rPkfpY


Here's my question to you 2436 owners, which does your lathe sound more similar to at the 2000-2500 rpm range?

In other words, do all the new ones sound like my newer one or did I have a run of really bad luck with components?

Or do the two lathes sound the same to you? I'd really like to know. I'd also love to hear a recording of another newer 2436 at higher rpm. Feel free to PM or email me with questions or info if you would rather.

Also, I suggest if you are ever going to remove your 2436 headstock (which is very easy) , you would do well to remove the spindle lock (only two screws). Otherwise you are likely to put a little bit of pressure on the protrudig spindle lock lever as you lift the headstock up and out, and it is easy to bend the little tab that keeps it in/out. DAMHIK.
 
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Bill,

There is definitely a noticeable difference between the two. I still think I would switch the spindle cartridges around so you can try to isolate the issue.

Good Luck

Alan

PS if you get tired enough to push it outside please let me know. I have relatives in Washington state so I am sure I could make the round trip to pick it up.:D I will make it work.
 
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One final question: does the rattling sound change at all between forward to reverse direction?

I think if it were mine, I'd arrange a complete headstock replacement by Oneway. They should exchange it with little cost but shipping.

Owen
 

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I was thinking about the possibility of changing one thing at a time, but it would require a lot of disassembly and reassembly time. For example, first put the belt from the good lathe onto the bad one. Next would come the spindle pulley, then one bearing, then another, etc. Finally, you would wind up with all of the old parts in the new casting. I would expect that somewhere along the line the sound would change.
 

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I understand. Maybe it is just time to buy some earplugs. Sometimes annoyances can get the best of us. It did for me when spent a lot of time obsessing over a different type of noise. My new Canon 7D is a wonderful camera, but I thought that there was too much image noise even at moderate ISO gains since I had been accustomed to seeing images that looked much "cleaner". Gradually, I recognized that some of what I thought to be "noise" had more to do with my comfort zone and accepting the limitations of my older camera as being goodness. On one hand, the 7D forced me to become a more disciplined photographer and on the other, I decided that the remainder of the noise gave the images a somewhat film-like quality.
 
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I understand. Maybe it is just time to buy some earplugs. Sometimes annoyances can get the best of us. It did for me when spent a lot of time obsessing over a different type of noise. My new Canon 7D is a wonderful camera, but I thought that there was too much image noise even at moderate ISO gains since I had been accustomed to seeing images that looked much "cleaner". Gradually, I recognized that some of what I thought to be "noise" had more to do with my comfort zone and accepting the limitations of my older camera as being goodness. On one hand, the 7D forced me to become a more disciplined photographer and on the other, I decided that the remainder of the noise gave the images a somewhat film-like quality.

For me it's a no brainer because except doing demos I don't have to turn on a unpleasant lathe. Life is too short for that. Actually I do wear earplugs when I turn because I like to "get after it" like my friend Dave Schweitzer would say. Old oneway is a pleasant whir in the background with only cutting noise coming through while I work. New version rattly and distracting.

Different subject: When I switched the headstocks back to their proper lathes so I could resume working I weighed them since the older one felt noticeably heavier.

I was right, the old one weighs about 10 percent more and appears to be a thicker casting. 75.5 lbs for the old headstock complete except for pulley cap while 69.5 lbs for the brand new one without pulley cap. Since the spindle cartridges weigh about 30lbs themselves, that makes the 6 lb difference in just the middle casting a bigger percentage yet.

Would be interesting to know if they use less metal anywhere else on the newer lathe bodies. Not saying it makes any difference, just curious about what has changed in the newer ones other than mostly minor things like double spindle bearings and different style seals, a few headstock cover styles, the index pin got longer, change in controls and controller (actually the controllers they have used are not all equal), better paint, graphic on headstock, headstock adjusting blocks between ways, option of ss ways more index points.

One bummer for me in having the multiple replacement components hard to come by and still noisy is that, except for the OW banjo which I don't love but easily replaceable, I have been quite happy with my original 2436 and have until now never felt the need or desire for a different lathe. But since I am full time, I require equipment that I can be confident that I can resolve any issues satisfactorily in a reasonable time frame and with a fairly low dose of grief.

Luckily for turners there are lots of good choices in a wide range these days.


Winding it all down:

I posted links to a number of vid links in this thread, but I think the only one that shows both the old headstock and one of the newer headstocks/spindles is:

http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/1/QYwxxqkoFyg

I am mostly repeating myself, so it's a good time for me give it a rest. If you have any specific questions or advice, email me or catch me in St. Paul. If you can't find me, check the Robust, Magma and Vicmarc booths. ;) I'll be the guy with the unruly hair and a grin like a pig in a puddle.
 
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Bill,

I have been following this thread because I thought my 2436 was a bit noisy at 2000 rpms but it is nothing like yours. I think you should post all of this over on the Oneway forum. I think the techs at Oneway are on there quite a bit. It sure seems to be a bearing/spindle issue to me.


Good Luck,

Dale
 
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I have been following this a little. I can not hear the noise we do not have speaker connected to our computers. ( Is there any way to find out if One Way has changed the thickness of the spindle or the metal make up, A thinner spindle ( larger ID ) noise could transfer, or some type of other change that just happened on your spindle.
Bearing brand change
Miss aline in the head stock casting
Casting bore ID too big too small
A burr on the spindle causing wind noise (Like I sand I can not hear the noise)
Any holes in the spindle that are not in the no noise one
Does it make the noise with the hand wheel on or off
Is all of the bolted togeather parts tight and aligned

Good luck this type of thing can make you go crazy
 
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Bill, I am not a bearing expert. But the sound is like bearings that are to tight. One of my old lathes has a double tapered in front that I can control the bearing pressure. To tight they sound like this and build up a lot of heat. I mean almost sizzle to the touch.Way to nasty sounding for my tastes. So I think you should try to loosen up the pressure on those bearings. Its been a long time since I took out my spindle to have a new one made but they have to have a way to put or release pressure. The machinest I had make me a new spindle said the blueprints that came with the lathe were very nice. He is also a turner so he set the pressure to where it seemed right to him. That was over 10 years ago and the front bearings still sound good. Like your old lathe. Oh, I had him make me a spindle with 1 1/2 by 8 threads.
 
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Bill what is is that the computer I use is the one at work the IT guy has the sound turned off so we can not use it, why I don't know but IT guys are IT guys. ( I do have permission to use it for things like this,break times)
But with out hearing it, the difference in the bearings, way it is made or the material that is made of has to be causing the problem you have checked everything else.
Has One Way said that they don't have that problem with any others if so may be they should get that one back and reverse engeneer it to see were the noise is coming from.
I have a one way 1224 have had it for about 8 years do not use it everday you know that thing call paying work gets in the way of all the fun stuff, but it is a sweet lathe. But I am one also that does not crank down so hard on the tail stock, I depend on the chuck or face plate to hold the work and the tail stock to suport it, and on spindles the spur drive to spin the work. I have seen turners crank and crank and then crank some more on the tail stock, that is very hard on the majority of lathes,
 
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Bill, I answered your private email before coming here. If its true that the bearings can not be adjusted for load(makes no sense to me) then you are cooked. But the noise is terrible and Kevin should send you free of charge a new bearing to try. By the way I got a new live center and the bearings are loud when I crank it tight. My old one is no sound at all but got sloppy. Is OW buying cheaper bearings? Not good if so.
 

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Wow - what a mess.

Whether its OW responsibility to replace parts or the entire lathe or not is so much the issue. This whole mess just makes them look unresponsive and uncaring - not so good PR.

If one purchases a Cadillac lathe, one would expect Cadillac service after the sale.

Just bad PR on their part. Send OW a link to this thread maybe...
 
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