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Stubby 750 or Robust , American Beauty

Bill Boehme

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.... I have a 3 hp motor on my 1000 however I've received info that the Eurotherm drive will only deliver 2hp. Since I've never needed more power than what I have, I won't be running out to get a better drive until this one poops the bed.

Mark, it might be that the drive is operating in the variable torque mode rather than the constant torque mode when connected to a 3 HP motor. The only difference is that at speeds slower than base (nameplate) RPM, the torque will be less than base speed torque. This is something that would never be noticed unless the motor is being loaded down to the point of stalling it. For the great majority of woodturners, actually needing 3 HP is mostly psychological. I don't know if I could actually stall the 2 HP motor on my lathe, but I did squeal the belt once.
 
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Actually, Bill, I usually use less tension on my poli-v belt as sort of a safety feature. If I were to slip taking too big a bite, the spindle (not the motor) will stall before too much damage is done. This happened twice; once when I was coring a very large bowl, and once when I was doing a 25" winged bowl. Tends to be rough on a poli-v belt so I do try to avoid it. I also tighten up the belt if I'm roughing large work with big tools at slower speeds.
 

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Poly-V belts should not be tight anyway. Snug is about right. The typical test is to see if you can deflect the belt a half-inch at mid span with finger pressure -- a couple pounds or so. Having the belt tight is also bad for the motor bearings because motors don't like overhung loads -- even though that is what you get with a belt drive.
 
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Well, a lot of folks will say, 'cut the wood as it wishes to be cut'. For me this is fine when doing finish cuts. When it comes to roughing, I cut the wood how I want it to cut. I hog off a lot of wood at fairly high rpms. Yes, it produces some tear out, but to me, that is why you call it 'roughing cuts'. It is stock removal, and shaping. Finish cuts are much neater, and done gently. I like the 3 hp motor that lets me hog off faster.

robo hippy
 
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I was out turning some Myrtle, and dropped down to the low range just to see. I do have the 3 speed Beauty. I could still stall it, with little effort, well, for me any way, using a 1 inch wide scraper. Higher rpm and mid range torque seems to work as well as low speed/high torque.

Just give me a Big Ugly tool (tantung or stellite on bar stock), and I will cut anything I have ever run into...

robo hippy
 
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Robo said

"I was out turning some Myrtle, and dropped down to the low range just to see. I do have the 3 speed Beauty. I could still stall it, with little effort, well, for me any way, using a 1 inch wide scraper. Higher rpm and mid range torque seems to work as well as low speed/high torque."

Which was the reason for my original post. The AB is a very nice lathe but I had this same result except I was turning maple and using a 3/4" Thompson V gouge. Now I can stall my VL300 3hp as well but the AB stalled easier and much quicker. Yes I was using the low speed and high torque range. The mid range I couldn't take near the cut that I wanted before stalling. When I rough out bowls I cut the wood the way I want also, not the way it wants to be cut, at least most of the time. It is extra stock removal and I get rid of it as quickly as possible. I wanted to know if anyone else has experienced this and I am glad Robo has confirmed my experience. Course I don't personally believe in turning at high speeds especially when I am loading 14" to 18" rounds that are 6" to 10" deep and weigh 50 pounds plus and are not completely balanced. Thanks Robo for your honest response.

Dale
 
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I a hoping to buy a new Stubby or Robust. I am have a hard time which way to go. Please give me some input on this. Also has anyone ever modified a PM3520 to be able to turn larger diameters?

I have the PM3520B and I also purchased the 18" extension bed with the special tool rest that goes with it for those large pieces that sometimes need to be turned. Using the outboard turning capacity I have with the extension at the lower setting, my tuning capacity is 35" or very close. that is a very large bowl or platter. I have seen the outboard stand that PM makes for outboard turning also it is : Powermatic 6294732 Outboard Turning Stand for about 500.+ bucks maybe more now I am not sure, but it would I believe allow even larger diameter turnings and better control for the tool rest. It is designed for the 20" PM lathes either the 3520b or it's larger cousin 4220 If I had the money I probably would buy a RB American beauty but my Pm is a lot of lathe and I have never found anything it couldn't do so far.
 
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Maybe some of we Brute Squad turners should get together with the top big lathes, Robust, Oneway, PM, Serious, VB36, Vega, and maybe another one or two, and see which is easiest to stall. The Beauty isn't weak, for sure. None of the others are either. Probably for a safety factor, a lathe that can't be stalled isn't safe for the general public. You can only get so much speed and torque from a 2 or 3 hp motor. The electric motors on all of the lathes are top quality. I always use the variable speed to turn up to the proper rpm, you all know just when it starts to wobble/vibrate, then start roughing. That determines speed. I have to temper my cuts so the lathe is not stalling. Stock removal is pretty fast. Hmm, a 5 hp bowl lathe...... Maybe a V8 like the speed chain saws.... Tim the Tool Man Taylor style......

Should torque ratings be included in lathe specs????

robo hippy
 
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Alan, just for the record, we won't make a 5HP lathe. I'm sure we'd be able to find someone with enough muscle to force a blunt instrument into the wood and stall that too. That is if they didn't hurt themselves first.

Good technique and sharp tools are more important than horsepower. If you want an example of good technique and sharp tools, watch a video of someone like Mike Mahoney or Glenn Lucas. They can remove an amazing amount of material in a very short time. With no stalling.

If you are routinely stalling a Robust, or any other 3HP lathe that is in it's low-speed, high torque range, then you have room for improvement with your turning skills.

Brent English, President, Robust Tools.
 

hockenbery

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Alan, just for the record, we won't make a 5HP lathe. I'm sure we'd be able to find someone with enough muscle to force a blunt instrument into the wood and stall that too. That is if they didn't hurt themselves first. Good technique and sharp tools are more important than horsepower. If you want an example of good technique and sharp tools, watch a video of someone like Mike Mahoney or Glenn Lucas. Brent English, President, Robust Tools.

So true!
I get to turn on one of your beauties this weekend! -:).


Al
 
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If you are routinely stalling a Robust, or any other 3HP lathe that is in it's low-speed, high torque range, then you have room for improvement with your turning skills.

Brent English, President, Robust Tools.

Wait a minute, you are saying that aggressive turners have poor turning skills? I can't agree with that at all. Many turners of the highest skill levels are just trying to make speed with their roughing out. It will most often apply to the turners that are working at the size limits that the lathe manufacturer is giving them? It has nothing to do with their level of skill because they can stall a motor.
 
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Stubby 750 or Robust, American Beauty

I do love my Stubby 750 and I believe American Beauty probably would cost more than the Stubby 750. Having a lathe made in the U.S. I believe has many advantages and I am
not sure that the Stubby will be made much longer. The Northwest Washington Wood turners just purchased a Robust Sweet 16 and it is a gap bed lathe and has a 3hp motor. The
Stubby 750 and the Sweet sixteen are both close in price. The stubby turns to 30 inches in diameter and the Sweet 16 will turn to 35 inches.
 
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I can see two possible headlines:

Woodturner with new 10 hp lathe found with half of him downstairs, and the other half up stairs!

Woodturner with new 10 hp lathe, whereabouts unknown. There is a large unexplained hole in the roof.

A 5 hp lathe would be nice for me, but probably too much for 90% or more of the rest of the turners. I do stall my lathe a lot, probably as much with my McNaughton as with my scrapers. I find a scraper a far more efficient tool for roughing than a gouge. They do take a bit more pressure to cut with, but keeping the tool rest fairly close, and the tool sharp, no vibration problems.

robo hippy
 
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American Beauty

I a hoping to buy a new Stubby or Robust. I am have a hard time which way to go. Please give me some input on this. Also has anyone ever modified a PM3520 to be able to turn larger diameters?

I have the Robust AB. Would buy it all over again. So much more lathe than the Stubby or the PM 4224.
Yep it carries a price. I put lots of options on mine. Brent English is a gem and service is top notch. When he says you will be happy he means it.
 
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"Wait a minute, you are saying that aggressive turners have poor turning skills? I can't agree with that at all. Many turners of the highest skill levels are just trying to make speed with their roughing out. It will most often apply to the turners that are working at the size limits that the lathe manufacturer is giving them? It has nothing to do with their level of skill because they can stall a motor."

Right on Richard. I'll also guarantee that Glenn and Mike stall lathes but they certainly are not going to show it in their videos.

Not only that but people who are turning aggressively or production turning do use sharp tools. They also have good technique to be able to turn with a dull tool to make that last cut or two if they choose. Most people who production turn will sharpen and arsenal of tools prior to a session. Once they are all dull they sharpen them all and go back at it. Personally I use 6 - 3/4" gouges and 5 - 5/8" gouges when I get to production turning bowl blanks, which seems like that is all I get done anymore.

Brent I have said over and over that you make a fine machine which will work for the majority of turners. Let's not get personal. I simply pointed out a couple of concerns that I have with my style of turning and my application of the tool, which you can either ignore or look into. I really don't think this back and forth is doing either you or me any good. Lets part with a friendly hand shake. I'll be the first to say that I am sorry if I hit a soft spot with you. As a small business owner also, I understand how sometimes things like this can sting a bit. There was no ill will intended.
 

Bill Boehme

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Wait a minute, you are saying that aggressive turners have poor turning skills? I can't agree with that at all. Many turners of the highest skill levels are just trying to make speed with their roughing out. It will most often apply to the turners that are working at the size limits that the lathe manufacturer is giving them? It has nothing to do with their level of skill because they can stall a motor.

I think that you are jumping to conclusions. My take on Brent's comment was that if somebody is unable to turn without constantly stalling the motor for some reason that is not intentional and probably beyond the skill of the operator -- in other words, white knuckle catches. That description could have fit me on the first couple times that I attempted turning a bowl on my old Delta 1440 lathe.

I did actually, have a lollapalooza of a catch a few days ago when I accidentally poked a scraper into a large bowl before anchoring it. I don't believe that the lathe stopped or even slowed down, but the scraper was jerked out of my hands and the banjo was knocked sideways. The bowl survived and presented me with a slight design opportunity. I think that I will forgo any attempts at stalling my lathe. BTW, the motor on my lathe is just a wimpy 2 HP.
 
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hockenbery

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Richard, Dale,

I don't think you guys stall your lathes all day long.
It would be an inefficient use of the time you value. :-(

I stall lathes during demos more often than I should and quickly back off trying to find the feed rate the Machine can cope with.

All cutting slows every lathe regardless of how big the motor is and how sharp and well presented the tools are. Just a fact.

Good technique being pushed at a too fast feed rate will stall machines we all know that.
But good technique being pushed at too fast a feed rate becomes poor technique.
Just isn't efficient to stall a machine.

The idea is to work just under the stalling feed rate. The better we know the material, out tools and our capability the closer we come to that limit.
A stalled lathe is not cutting wood.

My 2 cents. :)

Al
 
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I have the Robust AB. Would buy it all over again. So much more lathe than the Stubby or the PM 4224.
.

I'm curious: how do you mean that, exactly? I've been fence sitting for months between the robust AB and 4224 myself. The capabilities seem pretty close, and for me I keep changing my mind as to which features I prefer to decide one over the other. You seem to think the AB has a big edge over the 4224, so I'm interested in your reasons.
 
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Bearings

All the lathes in this post are great ones, for me it wasn't about the motors or VFD's, it was about the bearings. I felt the conical rollers on the Vicmarcs gave an extra level if support, not only radially but axially too that the others just didn't seem to have.
 
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Alan, just for the record, we won't make a 5HP lathe. I'm sure we'd be able to find someone with enough muscle to force a blunt instrument into the wood and stall that too. That is if they didn't hurt themselves first.

Good technique and sharp tools are more important than horsepower. If you want an example of good technique and sharp tools, watch a video of someone like Mike Mahoney or Glenn Lucas. They can remove an amazing amount of material in a very short time. With no stalling.

If you are routinely stalling a Robust, or any other 3HP lathe that is in it's low-speed, high torque range, then you have room for improvement with your turning skills.

Brent English, President, Robust Tools.


Brent, I agree with you. I have never been able to stall my 3HP American Beauty and then again I have never needed to try to do that either. I can take as heavy a cut that I have ever wanted or needed to. A Great machine all the way around.
 
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You're right Al I don't stall my lathe all day long. As a matter of fact I rarely stall my lathe. When I try a new lathe I intentionally put it through difficult paces to see how it will perform, as I hope everyone does with their style of turning and type of turning (roughing, hollow forms, bottle stoppers or etc.) That is how I discovered this in the first place. I see nothing wrong with this approach since I use my lathe pretty hard when rough turning. I have said time and again that the robust is a nice machine and as a matter of fact it was still in the running with the vicmarc. I only point out things that are or maybe an issue for my purposes. Again I see nothing wrong with this since I read all the time tool reviews and questions people have to make sure they are making the correct choice. I went back and looked at the oneway as you suggested and was reminded of why it was crossed off the list. Tail stock a 3MT and spindle thread M33. I am also not fond of the remote setup and then you look at the cost versus say vicmarc and now it is a deal breaker for me. That does not make it a bad machine as a matter of fact I think it is a fine machine. My lathe accessories are set up for 1 1/4" spindle and 2MT tail centers which I don't care to invest more money to adapt my accessories to fit a lathe. All this about stalling when I mentioned two other concerns which only one has even addressed. To be honest I am getting tired of this hashing about stalling and for what purpose. Big deal if I or anyone can stall a lathe. I am trying to investigate lathes because mine is a long bed and I rough turn a lot of bowls. A short bed or sliding head stock would most likely work better for my purposes so I don't have to lean over the bed as much. I started on my list with the PM3520B, PM4224, Stubby, Vicmarc, VB, Robust and Oneway. For various reasons I had it narrowed down to the Vicmarc and Robust. After this silly (in my mind) debate it has cemented that I will most likely buy another vicmarc with a bed extension for the head stock side and swing away for the tail stock.

Sorry for the mini rant but I brought this up innocently to get feed back form AB owners to aid my decision and to help the OP with more information. This has been blown out of proportion. I have apologized to Brent for even bringing it up. The ball is in his court if he accepts that apology or not. Please don't start on Richard since Brent is the one who insinuated that it was poor turning techniques which switched it to more of a personal thing. Geez enough already.
 
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I'm not an engineer but my instinct tells me that for everything else being equal, a longer belt trasmits more power than a shorter one. This may explain the noted differences for equal 3HP motors. Anybody with more technical knowledge please correct me.
I also want to point out that for band saws, as an example, identical saws of the same manufacturer (wheel diameter etc) destined for the European market use motors of less power than the identical models destined to the american market which is more hobby dominated then the european where the professional users are the majority. There three phase motor are much more common though.
Is there a psychological/marketing factor involved in the power factor?
 
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Hey, no harm no foul. Certainly no apology needed. Just the normal give and take found on any forum where people have a lot of individual experience and opinions. The only time I ever post is when I perceive misinformation about my products or have a safety concern in general. Best of luck to all of you with your turning. Brent at Robust.
 
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I found a solution

I think both the Robust and Stubby are great lathes and if I did not already have a PM3520 I would get one of them. But needing the larger turning dia. only less then 10% of the time I found another way to go. For $700 I am having 5" tall spacer blocks build for my head and tail pieces and an extension for the tool rest holder on the banjo so all comes out equal. This is one tenth the money I would have spent and also gives me extra money to buy an extension for my bed. All I have to do is build a platform to stand on around my lathe which I do anyway since I am short. My PM has a 2HP and I have never had a problem with power so I think I will be OK is that way also.

Thanks for all your input, Richard Cale
 
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European models of tools

I'm not an engineer but my instinct tells me that for everything else being equal, a longer belt trasmits more power than a shorter one. This may explain the noted differences for equal 3HP motors. Anybody with more technical knowledge please correct me.
I also want to point out that for band saws, as an example, identical saws of the same manufacturer (wheel diameter etc) destined for the European market use motors of less power than the identical models destined to the american market which is more hobby dominated then the european where the professional users are the majority. There three phase motor are much more common though.
Is there a psychological/marketing factor involved in the power factor?

There are different rules in Europe for tools. As for instance riveing knofe is required. I would guess that when accidents occur in the interest of "protecting" the public from themselves new rules are applied. Also don't forget their electric grid is different from ours with different voltages.
 
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Gerard, what you said applies to safety, but there are a lot of 36 inch band saws or other machines with much higher HP. They want to protect the operator and the taxpayer that otherwise would bear for the Hospital and other expenses related to an accident. Like here if one does not have insurance. With the difference that here the taxpayer always pays if one is not insured as often happens in small busineses.
 
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I have been trying to figure out how a longer belt will transmit more power than a shorter one. The longer one will flex more, stretch more, and wobble more, well, at least the one on my drum sander does. Now, a wider serpentine belt is supposed to transmit more power than the standard V belts, I would guess because of more surface area.

robo hippy
 
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As I said I'm not an engineer so mine is only intuition.
There is a critical ratio between pulleys that gives the maximum power: 3:1. A higher ratio becomes not efficient reducing the contact of the belt with the pulley. Try to sketch two pulleys of different sizes with a belt between them and you'll see what I'm trying to say.
A longer distance between the pulleys, for a same ratio between pulleys, increases the contact arc (surface) of the belt on the critical small pulley therefore, i feel, increasing the "traction".
 
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Bill Boehme

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I have been trying to figure out how a longer belt will transmit more power than a shorter one. The longer one will flex more, stretch more, and wobble more, well, at least the one on my drum sander does. Now, a wider serpentine belt is supposed to transmit more power than the standard V belts, I would guess because of more surface area.

robo hippy

The premise presented by Sergio isn't correct, so there's no need to try to rationalize it.

As I said I'm not an engineer so mine is only intuition.
There is a critical ratio between pulleys that gives the maximum power: 3:1. A higher ratio becomes not efficient reducing the contact of the belt with the pulley. Try to sketch two pulleys of different sizes with a belt between them and you'll see what I'm trying to say.
A longer distance between the pulleys, for a same ratio between pulleys, increases the contact arc (surface) of the belt on the critical small pulley therefore, i feel, increasing the "traction".

Sergio, I started to respond to your statement a couple days ago and since it came up again, the short answer is that belt length has no connection to power. I suspect that you are more likely thinking about pulley diameter ratio, but even then within reason the answer would still be that there is no connection. I will give you more information on power transmission in belt drive systems after I've had my Wheaties and OJ this morning. FWIW, I am a retired engineer and motion control was one of my areas of expertise.
 
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Bill,
here is a drawing I made to demonstrate my point.
It is evident that with a longer belt, i.e. more distance between the pulleys, the surface of contact between the belt and the pulley increases with the distance. In one case is less than 180 degrees of the circumference in the other about 180 which is the max one can obtain, I believe. More surface-more friction-more traction.
PS: the larger pulley is less critical because the belt is not under the stress of a narrow curve, the belt has plenty of contact in any case and the small pulley on the motor shaft is the one with more traction being associated with a larger one at the spindle.
Regards
PS: id you find the Vicmarc chuck with a direct thread without going to the land of OZ, that by the way I would like to know where it is?
 
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Bill Boehme

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As I mentioned in my previous post, Sergio, belt length, wrap angle, pulley size, and drive ratio have no significant effect on power transmission. It is possible to have a power transmission so poorly designed that it would suffer from lower efficiency, but you won't find such a situation on any modern woodturning lathe. The motor to spindle efficiency on any woodturning lathe that uses J-section belts will be within the range of 96 to 99%. Older design lathes that use A-section belts will probably have an efficiency in the range of 85 to 90%. Lathes that use a jack shaft will have a much lower efficiency in the vicinity of 75%.

Power transmission efficiency is not a simple fixed constant, but varies a few percent under various operating conditions. Most of those conditions have a very small effect on efficiency, but operation outside the design envelope can result in a much greater reduction in efficiency. One of the most common offenders in lowering efficiency is excessive belt tension. For example, increasing tension from 50 pounds to 150 pounds can result in a 50 to 100% idling power loss. High RPM's (for example 3600 RPM vs. 1800 RPM) also can result in power loss that is comparable to high belt tension power loss. Small diameter pulleys are also a cause of greater power loss. Minimum pulley size is a function of the type belt being used and the maximum speed of the pulley (because flexing the belt beyond a certain amount results in energy this is not recovered when the belt unwraps from the pulley and velocity is important because it determines how fast the belt is flexing as it wraps and unwraps around the pulley). There is also a maximum belt speed measure in feet per minute for each type of belt and operation above that speed can produce a drastic reduction in efficiency because of the increase in friction. The physics behind that characteristic has to do with the aerodynamic forces due to pressure and vacuum created as the belt wraps and unwraps from the pulley. At this point, you can probably see that there are some conflicting design parameters in different parts of the operating envelope. For instance, a too small diameter pulley reduces efficiency, but a large diameter pulley will cause the belt to have a higher linear velocity. So, at the high speed portion of the operating envelope there is a resulting design trade-off between belt speed and pulley size.

From your previous posts, I can see that your main concern is related to the belt wrap angle (what you described as belt length). The effect of wrap angle is generally insignificant except for very extreme cases. The wrap angle can be too large as well as too small. As a rough guideline try to not have wrap angles greater than 225° or less than 120°. These are not hard and fast limits, but a good rule of thumb. You cite friction as a benefit of greater contact area, but in actuality friction is a parasitic power loss. Also, friction is not very dependent upon contact area. Other factors such as tension and speed have a greater effect on friction losses.

This is getting somewhat lengthy, but I may continue on later in other factors that have greater bearing on mechanical output power. But, suffice it to say that for an efficient belt drive power transmission (which would be the case for all of the upper end woodturning lathes), the power available at the spindle is essentially the same as the power at the motor shaft. Pulley size ratio and all of the other variables mentioned have no significant effect on efficiency. Just assume that the worst-case condition within the operating envelope of any of these Poly-V driven variable speed lathes is no worse than 95% and you'll be close to dead-on.

BTW, Oz is Internet slang for Australia in case you misunderstood my previous comment. I still think that it would be a good idea to go there and get a Vicmarc chuck straight from the source. Only problem might be that their 1¼X8 chuck might be an an export-only model. :D
 
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