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I need info on a moisture meter

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I have never used a moisture meter because I would just use the old tried and true 10% rule ( 1 year per inch) for the drying time on rough turned bowls. Since the demand has increased anything that will help me to turn a piece a little sooner will be a great help. I don't want an expensive moisture meter if a cheaper one will do the job and let me know if a roughed bowl is ready to finish turn. If you have used one and know it works, please let me know where you got it and the rough cost. Also since I am asking I might as well make sure from those with more experience what is the percentage of water I should be looking for (range) that lets me know if it is dry enough to finish turn?
 
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I bought a cheap HF moisture meter and have not found it useful on bowl blanks. What has worked for me is an inexpensive digital postal meter. After a couple of months, if I am in a hurry, I start weighing. If I have a week go by with no weight drop, I assume it is dry enough to return. I was surprised as some 9" rough turned 10% maple bowls quit losing weight after about 9 weeks. Smaller 6" bowls from the same tree took even less time. I just mark the weight in oz. and the date on side of bowl with a pencil.
 

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Max Taylor

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moisture meters

[have you considered microwave drying? Done properly, it caan have a roughed blank ready for returning in a couple of days. Max.
 
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I purchased a pin type on sale at Lowe's for like ten bucks. They now carry it for I think about 30. It looks to be the same one that Craft Supplies is now selling for 50. I checked it against a much more expensive one a friend owns and they read the same so I can only conclude it is just as accurate. If your relative humidity is higher where you live then 15% is acceptable. If it is lower then 8 to 10% is what you may want. I will finish turn anything under 15% and I have had no trouble with the finished piece. I live in Colorado and it is pretty dry here, not as dry as say Phoenix but still pretty dry. Even kiln dried 8% blanks will move (warp) a bit after you finish turn them. They are always taking on and losing moisture.
 
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I appreciate the replys guys. Since I have anywhere from 25 to 40 bowls drying at any one time I really don't have the inclination to weigh them and keep records. (just me) Down here the humidity is almost always high as well as the temperature. The microwave I know works, but considering the volume it is not practical for me. I will probably build a slow drying kiln from an old refrigerator/chest freezer like Cindy Droza posted somewhere. (some day): (another future project), but to have a moisture meter that can allow me to pick out a particular bowl from the shelf earlier than the date tells me it should be ready would be a blessing. I will look into the Lignomat Moisture Meter. Thanks
 

odie

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Breck........

Even if you don't intend to use a scale to determine stabilization of MC, they are so cheap that you ought to invest in one, just to give you some definite answers what percentage of MC would normally be for stabilization in your particular area. With a scale, minute weight loss can be detected, but a moisture meter may give you the same reading, even though stabilization hasn't quite happened yet.

Up here in Montana, I normally use 12% as the point where any piece of wood is safe to turn. It could be that you'll never reach 12% in your climate......I don't know the answer to that. You'll also find that a moisture meter will register different MC percentages for the same piece of wood, depending on what location on the block of wood the reading is taken.

ooc
 

Bill Boehme

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Breck........

Even if you don't intend to use a scale to determine stabilization of MC, they are so cheap that you ought to invest in one, just to give you some definite answers what percentage of MC would normally be for stabilization in your particular area. With a scale, minute weight loss can be detected, but a moisture meter may give you the same reading, even though stabilization hasn't quite happened yet.....

What Odie says is right on the money. And you can get a really accurate digital scale these days for roughly $20. I use my wife's kitchen scale for weighing turnings more than she uses it for kitchen purposes. The one that we have will weigh things up to about 12 pounds or so with a resolution of 1/8 ounce. Right now I am drying a really large bowl that started out weighing about 15 pounds a couple months ago. Today it is at 8 pounds 8 ⅞ ounces and losing about 2 ounces per week so it is not far from reaching steady state conditions. I have a moisture meter, but moisture meters are not a precision instruments -- they only give a localized picture of what is going on in the vicinity of the pins that are measuring conductivity. A scale tells you precisely how much total moisture by weight is being lost. My moisture meter can't tell the difference in moisture today from what it was three weeks ago.

Other than for purely academic interests, I can't imagine any real need for a woodturner to having a moisture meter as opposed to using a scale. Now, if I had a sawmill and were air drying a stack of lumber, it would be an entirely different story.

I normally just write the date and weight on a piece of paper that I keep in the turning, but I recently created an Excel spreadsheet program where I enter that same information and it automatically plots a chart showing the drying progress. By looking at the plotted data, it is pretty easy to extrapolate ahead in time to make a good estimate of when the drying will level off.

box elder.jpg
 
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odie

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Bill's graph gives an excellent visual of the drying process, and coincides with my understanding of the general results for most woods. With some hard dense woods like Cocobolo, Bocote, Bubinga, etc., I believe you'll find that the moisture release isn't as dramatic in the early stages of the process, and the graph curve will be more gradual. In the late stages of drying for these dense woods, the moisture release is very small, just as it is for all other woods.

I use both a moisture meter and monthly weighings, for a more total picture of what is happening. The moisture meter reading is only used initially, and it gives me a starting reference point for allowing a judgment of what to expect. The moisture content reading from the meter doesn't give much of an overall idea of what the drying time will be to reach stabilization, but it does give an idea of how much drying is necessary. If I added Bill's program for introducing a visual graph of the process through weighings over time, that would give a more total picture of the progress. The weight is the final point of consideration, however.

I just completed my monthly weighings of about fifty roughed and anchorsealed bowls in inventory. Everything went pretty much as normal, but I did have one bowl that actually gained weight (about 5 grams) consecutively, over the past two months. Odd, to say the least, and this phenomena has happened before. This just goes to show that as much as we try to make rules that will always apply......the drying of roughed bowls just isn't an exact science.

ooc
 

Bill Boehme

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I meant to also mention in my last post that the steeper slope of the curve during the first three or four weeks represents the free water that is lost and the subsequent slower rate of moisture loss is from the bound water.
 

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Weighing is an accurate way to determine when a bowl has stopped loosing moisture.

For me a moisture meter is a lot faster and I might have to only make a measurement once.
The weighing requires the collection and retention of historical data.

It's the periodic weighing I could not keep up with. It's a different mindset for me.

Most of my turning has been hollow forms, once turned bowls, and Christmas ornaments.
I maybe did 15-20 double turned bowls a year. My drying method is to write the date and wood on the bottom of the rough turned bowl an put in paper bags.
Swap to dry bags every day until the bags are not damp which takes about 5 days then leave the bowl in a bag for 3-4 months.
Then check with the moisture meter and put the bowl on the dry shelf or the not dry shelf.
Most of my bowls were dry and ready turn at about 6 months with a few being ready at 4 months.

When I wanted to turn bowls or got a special order, I wood measure the moisture of the rough outs on the not dry shelf using the turned date, size, species until I found the ones I wanted to turn. When I was running out of room on the not dry shelf I would pull any rough out older than 6 months and put the dry ones on the dry shelf.
If I went to the drying shelf for a bowl and had not made a recent measurement I can't reliably find a dry bowls.

Is the moisture meter as accurate as the weighing? Probably not. Is it accurate enough? Probably yes.

I also dried spindle stock in 1x1 up to 4x4 for Christmas ornaments and used the moisture meter in these too.

Al
 
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Bill said "I can't imagine any real need for a woodturner to having a moisture meter as opposed to using a scale"

I can since I kiln dry bowl blanks. I can quickly test a half dozen sample bowls in a minute rather than weigh them and see what they used to weigh and then guess at what they might weigh once dry. When drying a couple of hundred at a time it is much quicker and accurate enough. I agree with Al that weighing may be more accurate but do we need to be that accurate. I really don't think it is necessary to be that precise since wood takes on and loses moisture almost on a daily basis. Weighing blanks and charting them seems more academic than metering.

I read somewhere (can't remember where, may have been in the book How to Dry Wood which Hoadley and others wrote articles) that for some applications, ours included, anything under 18% would be fine. This is assuming it is like a bowl rather than some of the intricate work some do. If the wood is dried to 18% or less that it won't crack when it dries further and there will be minimal movement from there. That is why with a my moisture meter if it reads 15% or less it will be fine to finish turn with no problems. Now if you are going to make furniture, windows, doors and etc. then 8% is your goal.

Just another perspective.
 
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dry items

A few years ago on this forum, one of the other women (sorry, can't remember) replied to my inquiry about what happens if you apply finish and it isn't totally dry. The response was the finish may look "muddy". Might be right!!!!! Gretch
 
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moisture meter

I use the pinless kind (wagner)-and love it as I have mentioned many times in this forum. What is neat is to see the various moistures within the same bowl, such as heartwood, crotch figure, spalted wood or where you have a thicker areas like down at the foot. I just keep testing till I don't see the % go down any more. Some woods just dry quicker than others. fast drying ones are box elder, black walnut, highly spalted maple, and maple itself. Slooooooooow one is oak, Gretch
 

hockenbery

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Dale made a good point about the objects.
A good example Platters with a wide rim generally needs to be dead dry before turning.
Any waviness in the wide rim is going to cast light in different directions.
This won't go well with many designs.

Al
 
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Weighing

I am on the side of the weighers. I use a kitchen scale and just write the weight onto a large piece of masking tape stuck on to the bowl. Reweigh monthly. No spreadsheets necessary. All you have to do is compare the weight found with the previous one written. When it has not changed, you are there.
 

Bill Boehme

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Dale, I will modify my statement to say that I don't see any reason for a woodturner like me who only turns a few items per month to need to go to the expense of getting a good moisture meter ("good" moisture meters aren't cheap and "cheap" moisture meters aren't good).

It is well beyond my realm of woodturning to even remotely approach turning enough stuff that I would have hundreds of items on shelves drying. Of course, there is nothing wrong with the time honored tradition of just roughing out something while the wood is wet and then sticking it on a shelf for six to nine months -- no meter, scale, or money necessary. It is only when you are interested in limiting drying time to its absolute minimum that using a scale or moisture meter would have any justifiable use. And, of the two, weighing is more accurate (not necessarily "better" depending on your needs, but nevertheless it is more accurate).

.... I can quickly test a half dozen sample bowls in a minute rather than weigh them and see what they used to weigh and then guess at what they might weigh once dry.

I understand everything here except for the part that I have highlighted in red. What would be a reason to guess what the final weight might be? Now, in the case of using a moisture meter, you know beforehand what MC to expect at the end and that is what you shoot for. With weighing, we are not aiming for a particular ending weight.
 
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Breck........

Even if you don't intend to use a scale to determine stabilization of MC, they are so cheap that you ought to invest in one, just to give you some definite answers what percentage of MC would normally be for stabilization in your particular area. With a scale, minute weight loss can be detected, but a moisture meter may give you the same reading, even though stabilization hasn't quite happened yet.

Up here in Montana, I normally use 12% as the point where any piece of wood is safe to turn. It could be that you'll never reach 12% in your climate......I don't know the answer to that. You'll also find that a moisture meter will register different MC percentages for the same piece of wood, depending on what location on the block of wood the reading is taken.

ooc

Odie you and Bill make a logical argument concerning using a scale and being an old science teacher of 35 years measuring and keeping records is not a problem at all, except that I don't want to fool with it. But I have always believed that if someone else's way is better than mine it will become mine also. I will pick up a scale oneday and give it a try, it may work for me.
 
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Bill,

All I meant by that statement is if you are needing to finish turn that bowl, you have been weighing, you may need to guess at where it will finish in weight to know if you can finish turn it or not. Now if you have plenty of stock and don't need to finish that particular bowl then no worries - weigh until it stops losing.

I reread my post and it sounds a bit harsh but not intended. There are just different methods and we all have our reasons for those methods. What works for you may not work for me type of thing. I just emptied my kiln yesterday and it was interesting on some species they were about 14% and some were 10% and yet others were 8%. There is truth to species drying at different rates. As dry as it is here during the winter they will all be pretty close to each other in a week or so.

Drying wood is so interesting to me. I have studied it and restudied it and then built my kiln which holds about 200 bowl blanks. It amuses me to the extent some will go through to dry things when sometimes the KISS theory is most often the best method. Having said that everyone has to understand there climate, drying facility and storage of the blanks to be successful, which sometimes may become complex giving their circumstances.
 
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I also use a scale to determine moisture content
just weigh each bowl rite it down on paper put the paper
in the bowl ,when it stops loosing weight it's ready
to finish turning.
I do this every couple weeks
sometimes when a bowl is ready it will gain back a
few grams of weight depending on humidity:cool2:
 

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I also use a scale to determine moisture content just weigh each bowl rite it down on paper put the paper in the bowl ,when it stops loosing weight it's ready to finish turning. I do this every couple weeks sometimes when a bowl is ready it will gain back a few grams of weight depending on humidity:cool2:

Its a great system that works well.

I have ample evidence that I lack the discipline and ambition to maintain an effective weighing routine.

I weighed for years before I got a meter. But after the initial excitement of watching the weight loss, I was not good at keeping a weigh schedule. I would skip 4 months, occasionally loose a weigh slip and then have to get a base weight and wait 2 weeks. So the meter lets me be lazy and inattentive and identify the dry rough outs when I get around to it.

Al
 

odie

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I think Al is not unique, in that there are probably many turners who haven't found a way to organize their seasoning process to include periodical weights, and keep that information readily available. What's needed is a system that is organized, and easy to use......and, a plan to make that system work in a shop environment.

I suppose many people who are organized, turn to the computer these days.......and that would work, but I choose to organize in the old fashioned way. I use a file card box with index cards. This is a method that your Grandfather may have used, and it works just as well in 2013 as it did in 1923!

The 4x6 file card in the photo shows all the information I need to know about one individual bowl throughout it's term being processed in my shop:

This is bowl #1054, a 3x6x6 Zebrawood bowl that I purchased from Woodcraft in August of 2012. The cost was $16.45, plus $1.34 shipping, for a total cost of $17.79. It had an initial MC of 16% taken with a moisture meter, and was roughed on Sept 14, 2012. It was immediately anchor sealed after roughing. The first weight was taken the next day, followed by monthly weighings thereafter. The weight stabilized after three months, but I decided to do a couple more weighings to make sure. Rule of thumb is thee consecutive unchanged monthly weights as a positive indication that stabilization has occurred, but depending on what you think about any individual bowl, you could do more, or less......you do have to make some judgment calls.

The only thing necessary to link the roughed bowl to the index card is the number written on the bowl.

I am a faceplate turner, so after the seasoning process is completed, all roughed bowls have a waste block attached. This Zebrawood bowl had the waste block attached on March 22, 2013.

Monthly weighings for all bowls being seasoned works out well for me to stay on an organized track. I keep a calendar in the shop and mark on it that weighings have been done for that month. Some turners weigh at different periodic intervals, and that will work, too. What's important is to keep the intervals spaced equally to give a more accurate mental concept of the progress.

After the bowl is prepared for final turning, the card goes to a second card file for "bowls ready to final turn". Once the bowl is finished, the bowl and the index card are brought into the house, where I have a third card file for finished bowls.

The index cards also work extremely well to add notes during final turning. Sometimes I leave the lathe, and come back later. If I'm in the process of sanding, it's a lifesaver to know what surface has what degree of sanding done already.

This index card/file card system works for me, and has been in place for the past dozen years, or so. I realize there are more ways to skin a cat.......so, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has devised a working system. The objective is to organize yourself, so that you have a better ability to make the turning process work for you. Any system that establishes that, is good........:D

ooc
 

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I usually turn to final thickness and I don't pay attention to MC. So I'm wondering if the projected final thickness comes into play when you determine when the optimum time to finish turn is. I understand if you turn fresh cut green wood(which I don't). But what about that piece of bought wood and your planned thickness is say 3/16ths. Just curious of others thoughts here. Personally I've not had any problems. Now that could be because I'm in Myrtle Beach where our humidity averages 65-90% every day. No true "dry" days here!
 

odie

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I usually turn to final thickness and I don't pay attention to MC. So I'm wondering if the projected final thickness comes into play when you determine when the optimum time to finish turn is. I understand if you turn fresh cut green wood(which I don't). But what about that piece of bought wood and your planned thickness is say 3/16ths. Just curious of others thoughts here. Personally I've not had any problems. Now that could be because I'm in Myrtle Beach where our humidity averages 65-90% every day. No true "dry" days here!

Brian.......

There may be other issues, such as resistance to warping and cracking due to species and grain orientation......but, I can tell you that, for my purposes, the least amount of warp possible will give me the best possible cleanly defined edges of intersecting planes, and detail grooves that are consistent along the entire circumference. A projected 3/16" wall thickness will have less resistance to warping, than a thicker wall......so, the answer is "yes" to your question.

Considering your high humidity in Myrtle Beach, I'd guess that the probability of your bowls cracking when it's relocated to a lower humidity climate, is greater than the other way around. That's just a guess on my part. Since I started making bowls, I've lived in the same area since then, but my bowls have had a very good success rate when relocating to areas of differing climates. When I was doing laminated bowls, I had many of them crack, and/or separate along the glue line, because differing species will acclimate to a different area in different ways.

ooc
 

Bill Boehme

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I usually turn to final thickness and I don't pay attention to MC. So I'm wondering if the projected final thickness comes into play when you determine when the optimum time to finish turn is. I understand if you turn fresh cut green wood(which I don't). But what about that piece of bought wood and your planned thickness is say 3/16ths. Just curious of others thoughts here. Personally I've not had any problems. Now that could be because I'm in Myrtle Beach where our humidity averages 65-90% every day. No true "dry" days here!

I would say yes and no. :D

A thicker piece warps less than a thin one, but not always if you finish turning at some intermediate dryness level. The thing about this question is that it is sort of comparing apples to oranges. If you turn something thin, you don't know what the result would have been for that particular piece of wood if it had been turned thicker. If you dry a piece until it quits losing weight or stabilizes at EMC for a long enough period, then you will be assured that whether you turn thick or thin the final result will normally have no noticeable warping. I say "normally" because a tree sometimes has some internal stress caused by leaning or if it had heavier branches on one side.
 
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Overkill

Seems like Odie has overkill going on . I probably do not turn as much as he, but I do not have the time for all that paper, and I am retired.
For me this depends on what kind of wood is turned and what final result you want. For red oak turn to finish will leave a watermelon or football shape. OK if you want it. White oak will too, but will have ribbed like effect with early and late wood drying differently (I think that is the cause)
I have had good results with drying in paper bag of chips (from that bowl). Then finish turn after 4-6 months. Usually remove bowl from bag every 2-3 days for couple weeks to stop mold formation for a few weeks.
I know that if you want perfect round bowl will need more drying, however most people will not notice unless very exaggerated like on the oak. Then there are the illusions of out of round like a natural edge with high side and low side.
As Odie said everyone does it differently and results will vary.
 

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I usually turn to final thickness and I don't pay attention to MC. So I'm wondering if the projected final thickness comes into play when you determine when the optimum time to finish turn is. I understand if you turn fresh cut green wood(which I don't). But what about that piece of bought wood and your planned thickness is say 3/16ths. Just curious of others thoughts here. Personally I've not had any problems. Now that could be because I'm in Myrtle Beach where our humidity averages 65-90% every day. No true "dry" days here!

I turn a lot of my hollow forms to 3/16 th.
From fresh cut green wood. They dry in a 2-4 days for sanding and finishing. Humidity is definitely our friend.

Most of the discussion is for double turning bowls where the idea is to dry the bowl that is 1 to 1 1/2 inches thick in a 6-12 months
Because it beats trying to dry a 6"-8" thick block of wood.
Turn the warp away and have a round bowl that looks round the rest of its life.
This is more of achieving a moisture content safe to turn without fear of warp or cracking.
Once dry I have had bowls I have not finished for lots of years. They are ready to go any time I need a bowl.

Finished functional bowls can be anywhere from 3/4 to 5/16 and there is no need to keep,the wall even once it is dry.
Some of my finished bowls will have a rim thickness of 5/8" and tapering down to 5/16 wall that carries into foot that may add some more thickness.
These have a nice look and feel.

Al
 

hockenbery

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I think Al is not unique, in that there are probably many turners who haven't found a way to organize their seasoning process to include periodical weights, and keep that information readily available. What's needed is a system that is organized, and easy to use......and, a plan to make that system work in a shop environment.


My big problem is periodically taking weights. Just doesn't work for me. I might be traveling, and if I'm not weighing is always a job I can put off while I turn instead. Maybe the biggest issue is I'm mostly a hollow form turner. But I rough out a few bowls now and then. It's just so much easier for me to rely on a meter than it is to make myself weigh bowls.
 
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Being primaririly a bowl turner, its the issue of turning wet enough, leave enough thickness to allow drying to stay intact and then remove the out of round from both the inside and the outside.
BUT
the real problem is cracking that forms when the outside dries faster than the inside, tangential drying and all that. For me pecan, hachkberry and maple behaves itself OK. Oak is a PITA, to the point where I dont turn wet oak. I will pick through the arborists pile of split wood and find a large chunk of split firewood that hasnt split itself silly and try that. Doesnt matter if I turn wet oak thin, it will split, 1/4 to 3/4 inch, it will split, over 1 inch, it will definitely split; all this splitting regardless if I bag with wet chips, bag with dry chips, bag with anchorseal, bag with nothing, wait a week, rebag, bag for a month. The only way I can get success is to use DNA. So, if I do some oak, I spend some money, get DNA and do several at once.

I alway wondered if a moisture meter would help, here in Texas summer heat, I figure that I could return sooner than 3 months when turned to 1/2 to 3/4 inch wet, time creeps past the 3 months before I need to return that fast.
 
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wisconsin
moisture meter

the pin style is the way to go. the one I have now is from penn state industries $39 bucks I have checked it with the lumber yard meter that is real nice with hammer pins and it is about 1% off depending on the wood. I use microwaves 7 of them going down to 20 % high heat then rack them 5% or less.
I feel that 1 or 2% is just not that big of a deal. gary barone
 
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