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240v Generator for powermatic+ compressor

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Any thoughts on running powermatic 3520b and air compressor on a generator?

New leased space lacks 220v power.

Thanks.

Dave
 

hockenbery

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Any thoughts on running powermatic 3520b and air compressor on a generator?

New leased space lacks 220v power.

Thanks.

Dave

Dave,
Is there 110 power?

1. it would be a lot cheaper to run a 220 line. The landlord would probably accept the gift.

2. I'm not sure this is legal or smart but several local chapters and a regional symposium use this and
I have seen electricians run similar things at symposiums. You can run two 110 separate circuit outlets into a 220 plug.

Basically they use a sort of extension cord with two wires and 110 plugs leading to one 220 outlet.
Two 110 cords plug into the wall outlets on separate circuits.

Not sure what goes into the box with 220 plug. Might be a shock hazard if one plug is plugged in the other might be hot.
I have done quite a few demos on powermatics plugged into these two wire devices.
You might ask an electrician if one of these can be used .

Al
 
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you should have 220 to your space, you might get an electrican to see how much to run a 220 plug for you, might be cheaper that buying a generator. most every home or shop that has electricity run to it has 220 it just branches off for the 110, if you have an electric dryer it is 220,electric water heater 220 and electric ranges are 220.
 
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The 2-circuit-into-one is used provided you can identify two distinct circuits. Since you will have more that one outlet to a circuit, you'll have to do some "circuit mapping".

A note, however, on generator use. Smallish generators (up to 12k) are characteristic for putting out "dirty power" meaning the power flow has peaks and valleys and a lot of fuzzy interference unless you spend a pantload of $$ for a fancy unit. Such power can play havoc with your lathe's VFD and its computer control. It's not worth the risk plus you have to haul and store fuel, piss-off the neighbors with the noise (of kill yourself from CO poisoning), fuss with maintaining the engine, and choose a big enough unit to power both the lathe and a compressor that can, depending on it's size, easily pull more juice that your gen-set puts out. Overdraw the genny and you blow the diodes leaving you with a repair job.

Not a good choice here.
 

Bill Boehme

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2. I'm not sure this is legal or smart but several local chapters and a regional symposium use this and
I have seen electricians run similar things at symposiums. You can run two 110 separate circuit outlets into a 220 plug.

Basically they use a sort of extension cord with two wires and 110 plugs leading to one 220 outlet.
Two 110 cords plug into the wall outlets on separate circuits.

Not sure what goes into the box with 220 plug. Might be a shock hazard if one plug is plugged in the other might be hot.
I have done quite a few demos on powermatics plugged into these two wire devices.
You might ask an electrician if one of these can be used .

Al

The 2-circuit-into-one is used provided you can identify two distinct circuits. Since you will have more that one outlet to a circuit, you'll have to do some "circuit mapping".

OK, I can see that I won't be asking either of you guys for electrical wiring advice. :D And I certainly would bestow the title electrician to anybody committing that sort of haywiring.

What both of you are talking about means that you already have 240 VAC service anyway. Typical 240 VAC power is supplied as what is known as split single phase. This means that is it 240 VAC with a center tap that becomes the neutral for two 120 VAC power legs that are 180° apart referenced to the center tap. In typical residential wiring that is supplied by this type of power, electricians commonly refer to the two 120 VAC hot legs as AØ and BØ power. The center tap is the neutral wire for both of these phases. Branch circuits that require 240 VAC are simply connected between the two hot legs and the center tap is not needed (except for ovens, ranges, dryers, and sometimes HVAC systems that require both 240 and 120 power).

So the bottom line would be if the building truly only has 120 VAC power then you can't play games with branch circuits to conjure up 240 VAC power. If that were not so, why in the world would we ever bother using transformers?

Now, on the other hand suppose that the building really is being fed with 240 VAC power where all of the branch circuits are 120 VAC with about half on the AØ and half on the BØ, but no dedicated 240VAC branch circuits -- then:

  • Why not do it right since you already have 240 VAC and just add a dedicated 240 VAC branch circuit.
  • Regrettably in this situation where things could be done right it is possible to do it wrong by jack-leg wiring two opposite phase 120 VAC circuits. Why is this a bad idea? It creates a very real safety hazard for electrocution. There are numerous problems, but I'll only mention the one that ought to be obvious to anybody -- an over-current or other fault condition that causes one breaker to trip will result in the connected equipment still being "hot" (exposed to high voltage). A proper over-current circuit has both hot legs mechanically ganged together so that any fault on one leg causes both sides to trip. The jack leg arrangement lacks that sort of protection.
 

john lucas

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Nobody mentioned the need to have the generator outside. I'm assuming it runs on gas (which of course costs money) and generates Carbon Monoxide. so he may be killed by that before he gets electrocuted. :)
 
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What Bill said.

OK, I can see that I won't be asking either of you guys for electrical wiring advice. :D And I certainly would bestow the title electrician to anybody committing that sort of haywiring.

What both of you are talking about means that you already have 240 VAC service anyway. Typical 240 VAC power is supplied as what is known as split single phase. This means that is it 240 VAC with a center tap that becomes the neutral for two 120 VAC power legs that are 180° apart referenced to the center tap. In typical residential wiring that is supplied by this type of power, electricians commonly refer to the two 120 VAC hot legs as AØ and BØ power. The center tap is the neutral wire for both of these phases. Branch circuits that require 240 VAC are simply connected between the two hot legs and the center tap is not needed (except for ovens, ranges, dryers, and sometimes HVAC systems that require both 240 and 120 power).

So the bottom line would be if the building truly only has 120 VAC power then you can't play games with branch circuits to conjure up 240 VAC power. If that were not so, why in the world would we ever bother using transformers?

Now, on the other hand suppose that the building really is being fed with 240 VAC power where all of the branch circuits are 120 VAC with about half on the AØ and half on the BØ, but no dedicated 240VAC branch circuits -- then:

  • Why not do it right since you already have 240 VAC and just add a dedicated 240 VAC branch circuit.
  • Regrettably in this situation where things could be done right it is possible to do it wrong by jack-leg wiring two opposite phase 120 VAC circuits. Why is this a bad idea? It creates a very real safety hazard for electrocution. There are numerous problems, but I'll only mention the one that ought to be obvious to anybody -- an over-current or other fault condition that causes one breaker to trip will result in the connected equipment still being "hot" (exposed to high voltage). A proper over-current circuit has both hot legs mechanically ganged together so that any fault on one leg causes both sides to trip. The jack leg arrangement lacks that sort of protection.

Safety first.

I will add that I have used my generator to power my 3520b when doing a demo in an area without 220. This was for a few hours, and so far no noticeable effect on the VFD. Worry about the supplied voltage made me keep a couple of incandescent lamps on the whole time to help knock off voltage spikes. The auto idle feature was kept off also to keep the cps near to 60 and the supplied voltage as stable as possible. The generator used was the common constant rpm alternator style, not the newer 'quiet' style that increases rpm as demand increases. I believe the newer quiet style uses a style of VFD to change the output of the generator to 60 cps current.
 
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Nobody mentioned the need to have the generator outside. I'm assuming it runs on gas (which of course costs money) and generates Carbon Monoxide. so he may be killed by that before he gets electrocuted. :)

"It's not worth the risk plus you have to haul and store fuel, piss-off the neighbors with the noise (of kill yourself from CO poisoning)"

Duh?
 

Bill Boehme

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Safety first.

I will add that I have used my generator to power my 3520b when doing a demo in an area without 220. This was for a few hours, and so far no noticeable effect on the VFD. Worry about the supplied voltage made me keep a couple of incandescent lamps on the whole time to help knock off voltage spikes. The auto idle feature was kept off also to keep the cps near to 60 and the supplied voltage as stable as possible. The generator used was the common constant rpm alternator style, not the newer 'quiet' style that increases rpm as demand increases. I believe the newer quiet style uses a style of VFD to change the output of the generator to 60 cps current.

What you stated are the same concerns that I would have. I suspect that the power from portable generators is not very clean. The lamp load probably helps with the spikes.

Without more information about the generator output I would be concerned about the long term effect on the motor from high voltage transients when there is a situation with one inverter is driving another.
 
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a little confusing

OK, I can see that I won't be asking either of you guys for electrical wiring advice. :D And I certainly would bestow the title electrician to anybody committing that sort of haywiring.

What both of you are talking about means that you already have 240 VAC service anyway. Typical 240 VAC power is supplied as what is known as split single phase. This means that is it 240 VAC with a center tap that becomes the neutral for two 120 VAC power legs that are 180° apart referenced to the center tap. In typical residential wiring that is supplied by this type of power, electricians commonly refer to the two 120 VAC hot legs as AØ and BØ power. The center tap is the neutral wire for both of these phases. Branch circuits that require 240 VAC are simply connected between the two hot legs and the center tap is not needed (except for ovens, ranges, dryers, and sometimes HVAC systems that require both 240 and 120 power).

So the bottom line would be if the building truly only has 120 VAC power then you can't play games with branch circuits to conjure up 240 VAC power. If that were not so, why in the world would we ever bother using transformers?

Now, on the other hand suppose that the building really is being fed with 240 VAC power where all of the branch circuits are 120 VAC with about half on the AØ and half on the BØ, but no dedicated 240VAC branch circuits -- then:

  • Why not do it right since you already have 240 VAC and just add a dedicated 240 VAC branch circuit.
  • Regrettably in this situation where things could be done right it is possible to do it wrong by jack-leg wiring two opposite phase 120 VAC circuits. Why is this a bad idea? It creates a very real safety hazard for electrocution. There are numerous problems, but I'll only mention the one that ought to be obvious to anybody -- an over-current or other fault condition that causes one breaker to trip will result in the connected equipment still being "hot" (exposed to high voltage). A proper over-current circuit has both hot legs mechanically ganged together so that any fault on one leg causes both sides to trip. The jack leg arrangement lacks that sort of protection.


Bill,

Most folks, me included, get a little fuzzy between neutrals, earths, and grounds since they usually all go to the same place. Your post seems to indicate that 220 doesn't need to have that third wire which I'm pretty sure isn't what you mean. Never had 220 without the neutral or ground or three phase without the fourth wire.

Bear in mind that I am one of the jacklegs, have found a lot of 220 circuits on separate breakers over the years and have indeed found 220 equipment with just one leg hot. Have also found over sixty volts on the ground bar, electricity isn't something to be played with by those without a little understanding and a good multi-meter. Routine to find far different potentials, sometimes less than ten feet apart! I wire 220 and three phase with little difficulty, 110 confuses me.

I am not going to recommend anyone else run high dollar equipment on a generator, probably grief waiting to happen long term, but I will say that we routinely run computers on today's generators, something that wouldn't have flown twenty years or so ago. After some of the hurricanes that has been my only connection to the outside world for a week or two. Cell towers die when the emergency back-up power supply goes dead, no phone, no other services, but I have internet. Better to have line conditioning equipment as Bill mentions but good equipment that will clamp high and low, probably not exactly the correct term, costs a lot more than what running a 220 line if none exists would. Or to be more exact, it did when I knew a little about such things when I was installing computer networks long ago. Good surge protectors that only clamp high are fairly cheap and I am running one on my dumb lathe now. It gives me outlets for my other tools and an emergency kill switch at the tailstock end of my lathe. I don't know anything about the electronically controlled lathes so Bill can tell us if that is a good idea or not for those with electronics.

I like the cleanest power possible. My 12x20 shop uses an entire breaker box. Separate circuits for my 220 air conditioner, my 220 lathe I don't actually have right now, my computer, and my NC router. Then only two receptacle boxes to each circuit and they are staggered every other one so I know if I plug into two receptacle boxes next to each other I am on separate circuits. I don't like running electric motors on the same circuit as anything that might be even a little sensitive to bad power, especially big cheap motors. My wiring may be overkill but it passes code in some pretty strict places and when meddling where my knowledge is modest I believe in overkill. I routinely overspec wiring also.

I'm guessing if the OP doesn't have 220 to the area he is leasing it is because he is leasing a smaller division of a building with a single circuit in it with 220 to the building. Probably cheapest and best to pay to have a 220 circuit dropped into the area. Often circuit boxes are already full. Something I learned about recently is a four circuit breaker unit that fits in the space of two standard circuit breakers. This isn't the circuit to run a lathe on but a professional electrician might be able to install one for some lightly loaded circuits to free up another circuit for the lathe.

Thoughts?

Hu
 

Bill Boehme

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Bill,

Most folks, me included, get a little fuzzy between neutrals, earths, and grounds since they usually all go to the same place. Your post seems to indicate that 220 doesn't need to have that third wire which I'm pretty sure isn't what you mean. Never had 220 without the neutral or ground or three phase without the fourth wire. ....

It looks like I need to explain the differences between neutral and ground and other similar terms. But, first I will restate what I said about 240 VAC. Appliances and equipment that run 240 VAC do not use neutral. They will, however, have a ground wire. Some typical examples of equipment that fit in this category are window air conditioners, tablesaws, bandsaws, planers and lathes. There are other types of 240 VAC appliances such as kitchen ovens that will have both a ground and a neutral because some of the oven functions such as the light bulb and timer run on 120 VAC while the heating elements run on 240 VAC.

OK, this implies that neutral and ground are not the same thing and, indeed, that is the case. Neutral is the transformer center tap or mid point of the transformer output. For 120 VAC circuits, neutral is a current carrying conductor since the same current that flows in the high leg also flows in the neutral conductor. Ground, on the other hand, is not a current carrying conductor. It is as the name says, a connection to ground. The reason for its existence is to provide a connection between the outer metal housing of electrical equipment and local ground for the purpose of protecting people from electrical shock in case something goes awry inside the metal enclosure.

The neutral conductor and local ground are connected together at one and only one point in any installation and that is at the service entrance (i.e., the meter). They are kept separate at sub panels and at equipment. Tying them together at any other point would result in ground-loop currents as well as faulty operation of any GFCI's on that panel.

This is a rather brief and simplified explanation of the subject, but I mainly wanted to touch on the what more than the why.
 
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Bill although I am not a certified electrician I have extensive electrical knowledge and every this you say is 100 % accurate and nicely explained

Hu as bill said there is no need for a neutral wire if all that is required is 220V ie a Lathe because there is no 110V requirement so 2 insulated conductor plus a bare ground wire and as Bill mentioned your dryer need 220V for the heating element and also needs 110V for the motor and electronics or timer 3 insulated conductors plus the ground
 
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Kinda vaguely remembered what you are saying

Bill although I am not a certified electrician I have extensive electrical knowledge and every this you say is 100 % accurate and nicely explained

Hu as bill said there is no need for a neutral wire if all that is required is 220V ie a Lathe because there is no 110V requirement so 2 insulated conductor plus a bare ground wire and as Bill mentioned your dryer need 220V for the heating element and also needs 110V for the motor and electronics or timer 3 insulated conductors plus the ground



I did remember there was a difference between a neutral and ground wire, couldn't remember details. Have seen some ugly things with ground loops, particularly DC ground loops. High amperage DC in some of the plants.

I have an issue with wiring right now going to a barn that I want to put my woodworking shop in temporarily. Pretty scary wiring, one type of wire leaves the breaker box over a hundred feet away and goes underground. Another type of wire enters the barn. Very weak power at the barn although wire gauge seems adequate. I have seen an electricity "leak" before where a spliced underground cable was insulated enough it wasn't a dead short but was dumping kilowatts into the ground. Doesn't seem to be the case here but something squirrelly.

Anyway, sounds like you know enough to answer the question: Are you indeed just dealing with one leg of 120? I think you can find a pretty "clean" generator under a thousand dollars to run either the lathe or the compressor, don't know about pulling them both at once and again my pricing is hopelessly outdated, it has been a lot of years since I shopped for such a thing. Seems like the competition has kept generator prices stable or even down a little though. On the other hand, my local electricians charge about $100-150 labor to pull a new cable residential, of course material costs are pretty brutal.

Hu
 
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Thank you all

for the replies. I especially appreciate the part where John Lucas recounts the order of hazards leading to various causes of death--although you all missed the probability that I could die even earlier from the heart failure from reading this thread or the stroke from laughing too hard!!

Seriously, if I am lucky, the builder will have pulled underground conduit from the panel to the detached 2-car garage where my shop will be. If no such conduit, my guess is that the price to rip up driveways, shrubs, sidewalks, etc, will be prohibitive.

What do you think about deciding (only as a last resort) to substitute a nova for my 3520b and go to a 110v compressor?
 
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What do you think about deciding (only as a last resort) to substitute a nova for my 3520b and go to a 110v compressor?

In my opinion, you would be taking at least one or two steps down in lathe quality and capacity, with little ability to 'move up' at any time in the future.

I think in the long run you will regret any such move. It would be worth pursuing the installation of the necessary electrical service now. If not, you will spend the future kicking yourself, and asking why you didn't do it in the first place. I also would not accept any jury-rigged, re-marrying of two opposite-leg 110V circuits as a solution, even if this was National Electrical Code acceptable (which I doubt) - a dedicated 220V line is called for. Since this is a remote location from the main service entrance, a sub-panel would be necessary, with isolated panel grounding (see NEC section 250, or thereabout, for specifics on separated neutrals & grounds, panel bonding, etc.). "Do it right, do it once, do it safely."

Your comment "last resort" says it all. Running 220V is a somewhat larger challenge than accepting existing 110V service; however if you can get 110V there, you can also get 220 there. It's just a matter of boxes, breakers, and enough "buck$".

In the long run you will enjoy the ability to run larger tools..... ......and it IS about enjoyment, isn't it?

Rob Wallace
 
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Depending on the location of the garage and the nearest point of electrical service, it might be possible to bring service directly to the garage with its own meter. I was able to do that to my detached garage, and I now have 100amp service that allows several dedicated 220 outlets throughout the shop.
 

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for the replies. I especially appreciate the part where John Lucas recounts the order of hazards leading to various causes of death--although you all missed the probability that I could die even earlier from the heart failure from reading this thread or the stroke from laughing too hard!!

Seriously, if I am lucky, the builder will have pulled underground conduit from the panel to the detached 2-car garage where my shop will be. If no such conduit, my guess is that the price to rip up driveways, shrubs, sidewalks, etc, will be prohibitive.

What do you think about deciding (only as a last resort) to substitute a nova for my 3520b and go to a 110v compressor?

I agree with what Rob said if you plan on turning a lot and moving to big pieces.
If you decide to larger bowls or hollow forms you will likely want a 220 bandsaw.

Running 220 underground may not be a big issue.
If there is space to dig a hole on one side of the sidewalk or driveway the cable guys can run the cable right under the drive without hurting the driveway.

Alternatively a large number of hobby turners will be a lot happier if they buy a Jet 1642 instead of the powermatic and spend the savings on a class at Campbell, arrowmont, craft supplies, a weekend with Ellsworth, Bosch etc......
But down the line you may want to get a bigger lathe.

I have a separate meter on my shop too. Was more important when we did turning as a business.

Have fun,
Al
 
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Have an Amish community nearby? They are masters at innovation at powering machines. They might tell you to put a hydraulic motor on the lathe and a pump on the engine outside. Talk about variable speed!!!!!!Get a big enough engine outside, and put an air compressor pump on it too! Far enough out of the box? Sure would eliminate those pesky ground/neutral electron questions! Don't need lightning in a wire at all! Went to an Amish woodworking show in Arthur IL once. Talk about different suppliers in some booths! Compressed air, hydraulics, gen sets, electrical switch gear, and not to forget the hitching bar out front filled with lines of horses and buggies.
 
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