CBN Again

[dbonertz]

I have read and learned as much as I could about the cbn wheels. I decided to purchase one and give it a try. I chose the optigrind wheel and insert do to it being manufactured in Austria rather than China as I understand the other two available brands are made. I also chose the optigrind because it has a 3/4" (roughly) cbn section on the edge of the wheel which comes in handy for some sharpening applications. I ordered it from them and received it quickly and it was easy to install. This quality product ran true and is better than I could have imagined in sharpening my tools especially my V10 and V15 gouges. I am writing this as a shout out to them as I have no interest in the company/tool other than a satisfied customer. I highly recommend them. They cost a little more than the others but as a remodeling contractor by profession I am really tired of buying inferior tools/products from China. Keep up the good work optigrind.

 

[Mark Levitski]

I am really tired of buying inferior tools/products from China.

(W/ emphasis on "inferior tools".)

Aren't we all. But it cannot be blamed entirely on China. I have had a German manufacturer and a US turning tool munufacturer give me failed products recently.

My D-Way CBN is great, and exactly as presented and as reviewed. Caution: China should not be automatically stereotyped.

 

[JeffSmith]

(W/ emphasis on "inferior tools".)

My D-Way CBN is great, and exactly as presented and as reviewed. Caution: China should not be automatically stereotyped.

I agree. I've worked for years with distributors that source their products from all over the world. They get exactly what they pay for regardless of where they come from.

My D-Way CBN wheels have functioned flawlessly (often unlike my sharpening technique) and are looking like they're going to outlast me in the process.

 

[robo hippy]

I have the D Way, Cuttermaster, and Optigrind. All are excellent wheels, and there is no performance difference in/with any of them that I can notice.

robo hippy

 

[dbonertz]

I did not mean to start such a fuss about China products. That is my opinion and I should have kept it to myself. I buy lots of tools every year and I am becoming a bit of a grump because I cannot seem to purchase good tools that last. My only choices for so many tools only come out of China, anymore, and I am frustrated having to replace them so often. I am sorry if I offended anyone with my personal opinion.

 

[Mark Levitski]

I am not offended at all. I totally agree about the quality of manufactured goods nowadays, and I myself have had PLENTY of the raw ingredients to produce the final distilled grump.

 

[allen jay]

stirring the pot


leave it to dale to stir things up

 

[dbonertz]

He He He You're giving me away Allen.

 

[robo hippy]

If you look at the problems that Woodcraft is having with their grinders, that is a prime example of quality control gone wrong.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

If you look at the problems that Woodcraft is having with their grinders, that is a prime example of quality control gone wrong.

robo hippy

I would have guessed that it is not quality, but more fundamentally, a bad design since the manufacturer can't seem to fix it. To explain what I mean, the function of QC inspection is to verify that an item has been built to print (meaning the drawings and the acceptance test specification referenced in the drawings). Passing QC inspection is no assurance that the customer will like the product if it was not designed to meet his expectations.

 

[john lucas]

I still think it's either quality control or possibly changing manufacturers because I know too many people who have the same machine and it works fine. In fact Woodcraft has been selling the same machine for quite a while. At least they look the same. So my guess is either they took bids on building them and whoever got it last time cut corners or dropped the ball, or the QC is simply not there on the latest batch.

 

[hockenbery]

I would have guessed that it is not quality, but more fundamentally, a bad design since the manufacturer can't seem to fix it. To explain what I mean, the function of QC inspection is to verify that an item has been built to print (meaning the drawings and the acceptance test specification referenced in the drawings). Passing QC inspection is no assurance that the customer will like the product if it was not designed to meet his expectations.

I have a woodcraft grinder and know of many more in service of other turners, club, and turning schools. For many years it has been about the best value for woodturners.
Maybe they changed the design, maybe they change manufacturers, or maybe it has always been a generic grinder they put a woodcraft plate on.

Quality control is definitely an issue. Why ship,something you can show is unacceptable by turning it on and listening.
In most quality control steps it is too expensive to test every item or every feature of every item so
A predetermined number from each manufacturing run are tested and the results give statistical estimates of the percentage of unacceptable units in the entire run.
Manufacturers then make a decision on what to do with the run.

I once tried to help a student having trouble sharpening a gouge. His problem was the flute was ground off center so that the gouge would register with the flute at an angle in the jig. This was a Chinese gouge sold by several companies.
My supposition is that no gouges has a perfectly centered flute but most are so close we can't tell. This one was Off a good 1/8 inch. I suggested he take it back and ask for a replacement. I didn't even know a flute could be ground off center. Amazing what you learn when teaching.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... Maybe they changed the design, maybe they change manufacturers, or maybe it has always been a generic grinder they put a woodcraft plate on.

My supposition is that various companies bid on contracts to supply the grinders to Woodcraft -- and the company may be a system integrator that is getting the motor from another source.

.... Quality control is definitely an issue. Why ship,something you can show is unacceptable by turning it on and listening.
..........

OK, let me try once again to explain it. The function of QC is to verify that a part has been manufactured to print --- End of Story.

The general public uses the word quality to mean an entirely different thing than what it means in the world of manufacturing.Your use implies that it is a measure of the worth or goodness of a product to fill an intended application. In manufacturing, that is NOT what QC means. Once again, repeat after me, "the function of QC is to verify that a part has been manufactured to print."

Products are designed to meet a set of performance specifications and then built according to a set of drawings and process specifications. At the end of the manufacturing line, the product is subjected to an acceptance test specification that verifies that compliance with the drawings and performance specifications have been met. Statistical analysis of repeatability, criticality of application, and various other factors are employed to determine what type of lot sampling is adequate to ensure a critical degree of compliance.

You may recall that Woodcraft received a large shipment of grinders recently and after in-house testing a large number of them, rejected the entire lot. It is reasonable to suppose that after getting an earful from Woodcraft that the manufacturer probably increased their sampling and verified that the units were indeed built to print. However, we have a saying in industry, "you can't test quality into a product, it has to be built into the product". The word quality as used in the above quote is the layman's definition of the term.

So, yes, we demand a quality product for our hard earned money, but don't blame the QC guys for a poorly designed product. A product can pass its ATP with flying colors and still be junk if it was designed to be junk.

Now it may be that emerging Pacific Rim manufacturers are only paying lip service to inspecting their products -- in fact you can be fairly confident of that if they are building junk. But, once again that boils down to design and manufacturing. If I didn't say it before, "you can't test quality into a product, it has to be built into the product".

During my engineering career, I wrote numerous performance and test specifications (no manufacturing process specs) and was pleased to have worked for a company that placed well built products that exactly met the customer's requirements as its highest priority.

 

[robo hippy]

Brings to mind the old 'well, it looked good on paper' quote. QC with a really conscientious company means not only built to spec, but making sure the specs work.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Bill,
I understand what you say at the component level.
I had some involvement in specification for products.
If woodcraft did not specify a sound DB level then any sound would pass.

Maybe the problem was poor specification?

Would you contract for a device to be used in a home shop and not write a sound level limit?

We had a saying you'll get what you ask for!

 

[Bill Boehme]

I was speaking of all levels of manufacturing. In particular, I was thinking of things at the system integrator level which is primarily what I was involved in as a design and development engineer.

While it may seem on one level that specifying a sound level is a good idea, that would be somewhat analogous to treating the symptom rather than the disease. If things were stated like that, then the solution has the potential to be just as bad -- something like adding noise dampening because it would be cheaper than identifying and correcting the real issue which I suspect is a design flaw where the noise is just a disconcerting side show. I know that Woodcraft certainly wouldn't do something silly like this, but imagine the possibility of getting a set of "FREE" ear plugs with the purchase of a noisy tool that if built properly should not be noisy.

From a practical point of view I envision acoustic testing as being difficult to characterize performance criteria and even more problematic and expensive to implement. First of all, we want to make sure that we are evaluating real-world conditions and that means having el-cheapo abrasive wheels installed. I think that we all know what to expect from cheap abrasive wheels -- out of balance with all sorts of noise and vibration -- and each set of wheels is different. So, here we are with a conundrum before even getting started.

How do we do an acoustic test? At the very least we will need an anechoic chamber, data collection equipment and criteria for interpretation of the results. Another part of all testing philosophy is how does any given test identify the root cause of problems. Just saying that something is bad without knowing the reason why is next to worthless when looking at the big picture. That's not to say that acoustic testing doesn't have its place. It might conceivably be the kind of test that would be done during pre-production performance testing, but not manufacturing ATP.

BTW, there is more to QC than just getting things out the door in working order -- another side that isn't always sufficiently recognized or appreciated is that QC is a major player in identifying manufacturing process improvements and flagging potential problem areas.

Unfortunately not all parts of the world have the same appreciation of quality, reliability, maintainability, fit, finish, function, and suitability that we do and I feel a rant coming on so I'd better stop.

 

[allen jay]

how did we get here

how did this thread get from comments on cbn wheels to a diatribe about the "quality" of imported anything???
WAY TO GO DALE

 

[Bill Boehme]

how did this thread get from comments on cbn wheels to a diatribe about the "quality" of imported anything???
WAY TO GO DALE

It's a spring-loaded topic that only needs a feather touch to set it off.

 

[davidwalser]

...
OK, let me try once again to explain it. The function of QC is to verify that a part has been manufactured to print --- End of Story.

The general public uses the word quality to mean an entirely different thing than what it means in the world of manufacturing.Your use implies that it is a measure of the worth or goodness of a product to fill an intended application. In manufacturing, that is NOT what QC means. Once again, repeat after me, "the function of QC is to verify that a part has been manufactured to print."

...

Bill - You're correct. QC cannot correct poor design. However, in the case of Woodcraft's slow speed grinder, we have reason to believe the design was a good one. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of satisfied owners. The product earned a solid reputation for being both relatively inexpensive and reliable. True, there were rare instances where the grinders made odd noises or produced unacceptable vibration, but the local Woodcraft stores fixed those problems by simply swapping the defective grinder for another one off the shelf -- which almost always worked as it should. So, while there were occasional manufacturing defects, the design itself seemed to produce a smooth and reliable grinder. Not a Baldor, but better than most hobbyists need.

Now, all of a sudden, things have changed in the Woodcraft grinder world. We hear many complaints and we understand that swapping a defective unit for a new on off the shelf is apt to leave one with another defective grinder. Today, we're advised to try the grinder out in the store before taking it home -- or we're likely to need to make a return trip.

Why this sudden change in customer experience? I offer three possibilities:

1. It could be that turners have become more demanding and are rejecting grinders they would have lauded a couple of years ago.
2. It could be that Woodcraft changed its design. If so, the changes must be internal because the grinders look to be identical to the ones that were so highly praised a few years ago.
3. QC isn't what it used to be.

Of the three explanations, I find number three to be the most likely. I don't see my fellow turners as being pickier than they were. Nor do I see why Woodcraft would muck with a successful design. I do see a lax manufacturer trying to make a few more pennies per grinder by using inferior components or by cutting other corners -- things a QC department should catch and prevent. Yes, I'm sure Woodcraft is as tempted as anyone else would be to make a few more pennies by specifying the use of cheaper components, I just don't think they would have been foolish enough to allow this debacle to go on for as long as it has if the fix were as simple as "Let's start using the quality bearings again."

 

[Bill Boehme]

I understand what you are saying, David, but I believe that there is another likely issue such as a different supplier for either the final assembly or the motor or a sub that makes component parts of the motor. The company that makes the grinder most likely buys the motor from another company and may have changed vendors because of cost or maybe the motor manufacturer decided to "value engineer" the motor to reduce the cost. For consumer products, there is not much, if any QC, especially these days.

BTW, the term "value engineering" is a misnomer that has nothing to do with either value or with engineering -- it's what happens when marketing and management smoke rope together.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, they did change it, and I don't know why. The first grinder that I got was one of the older blue ones. Still runs fine, though others had some run out. Then they went and changed for some reason. The change resulted in a bad product. Hope they get it fixed.

robo hippy

 

[robo hippy]

I figure QC is a whole company and every single manufacturing step effort. Every one in the whole manufacturing process does their own QC. Thing now is many 'just do their job', and don't care about anything else. Part of why my Dad's business is flourishing after over 60 years. Pride of workmanship needs to make a come back. Some one, some where along the line should have known some thing was wrong.

robo hippy