Polishing the flute

[Robert Feingold]

I was wondering if anyone recommends polishes the inside of the gouge flute to get a better edge, and if so how would one do that. it is not as smooth as the outside. They are not round so it may be a challenge.
I saw Alan Lacer put an MDF disc on the lathe and shape the edge, fill with compound and polish.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[MichaelMouse]

Unless you have a defined fault like a milling scar or such, no real percentage in it. IF you hone out the back to a shine like a carving tool, certainly, but few of us go beyond a 100 stone and then direct to work with turning tools, with perhaps a quick run of my 220 cone to kick off a burr in my case. OD apparently likes his edges more refined.

Whittle or spokeshave the interior contour on a piece of pine 3 inches long, sandpaper in successively finer grit over the mold, smooth away. Or use dust and oil.

 

[hockenbery]

I like a smooth surface in the flute.
I keep a slip stone by the grinder and if I see dirt or residue on the flute I run the slip stone back and forth in the flute at the end of the gouge.
When cutting wet wood I do this more often than when working dry wood.

Craft supplies, Packard, and lots of others sell gouge slip stones. These have curved edges that fit in the flutes
The one I use one side fits the flute of my 5/8 diameter bar gouges the the other side fits 3/8 diameter bars.

If the flute look s clean I don't bother.

I do this before I grind the tool and go to work on the wood from the grinder.

If you have residue from the wood in the flute that will make a sharp tool act dull.

If I'm doing lots of spindle work that has fine details I will do a little polishing.
Spindles can't be sanded much without ruining the detail.
So I want to sand with 320 or 400 if they are sanded at all.

Al

 

[john lucas]

No real reason to polish the whole flute. I use a diamond fish hook sharpener to polish just the very tip after sharpening. It is tapered and I just touch up the inside real quick. I will often do this before going back to the grinder and it improves the edge without honing the outside. I think of it as honing the flute

 

[odie]

I was wondering if anyone recommends polishes the inside of the gouge flute to get a better edge, and if so how would one do that. it is not as smooth as the outside. They are not round so it may be a challenge.
I saw Alan Lacer put an MDF disc on the lathe and shape the edge, fill with compound and polish.
Thanks,
Rob

I think Alan Lacer can get an incredibly sharp gouge using MDF and polishing compound......some knife makers use this method of getting a hunting knife super sharp.

For my purposes, I usually use 600gt flat diamond hone, and 600gt diamond cone on both surfaces of the cutting edge on a gouge......no polishing. This produces an edge that is sharper than many other turners are satisfied with, but probably not as sharp as Lacer is able to get.

One would have to consider the practicality of any degree of sharpness, as it relates to actual application resulting in sustained clean cutting of wood at high speed. Some woods are harder to cut than others, and the grain orientation is a consideration. One thing that is universal, is whatever degree of sharpness an edge has, it is dulled rather quickly at high speed. If the edge won't last more than a few seconds before that level of sharpness is lost......then what value will it have to a turner? This level of sharpness may apply more universally to a carver, or hand plane, than it will to a turner. Now, if a super sharp edge can last for......say, 15 seconds......now we might be talking about a level of sharpness that has a practical application to many of the needs a woodturner will have. There is the opposite to that extreme, as well. If the sharpness of the edge is less than is practical, then it may last a long time.....but, the cleanness of the cut may not be as good as could be practically had.....but, the edge will most certainly last for a much longer length of time. The real trick, here......would be to find that degree of sharpness that will last long enough to be of practical use to a turner.......while getting the best most clean sustainable cut.

Now, to answer the question of practicality, as it relates to turning wood on a lathe......there are as many answers to that, as there are individuals who have an opinion. From the responses here, it should be obvious there isn't a hard rule about how to sharpen best.

We all have our own methods, techniques, opinions, observations, and conclusions about how to sharpen best.......and, I have my own that are effective, and physically demonstrative as it applies to my style of turning. What I have concluded, will not apply equally to everyone else......but, it works for me to get the most consistently clean cut on difficult woods, while maintaining the sharpness of the edge for a practical and usable length of time, before re-sharpening.

ooc

 

[hockenbery]

One thing to note is there is a difference in spindle turning and bowl turning.

Glenn Lucas is doing a demonstration at the AAW In Tampa you will want to see.
"Bowl and Spindle gouges - sharpening and shavings"



Spindle turning nearly every cut is a finish cut.
Sanding ruins the sharp details cut with spindle gouges and skews

Alan Lacer is mostly a spindle turner. An excellent one.
He needs an edge that produces a finished surface.

For bowls and hollow forms I don't need a honed edge and I, like many turners, use the tool off the wheel.
And most of the really good bowl tuners are using 60 grit wheels.

That said, there are many other sharpening methods. They all work.

Have fun - work safely,
Al

 

[Matt Lewis]

A used piece of cloth backed 180 grit or higher sandpaper folded in thirds then placed into the flute so that it follows the curvature. Then move back and forth.

Regards,

Matt

 

[Harry Robinette]

I clean and smooth the inside of all my gouges. If you think about it the inside of your flute is the back of the cutting surface,as with all chisels you have to flatten ( remove the mill mark ect.) the back of your chisel before you can sharpen the edge. If you leave the mill marks in the flute then the edge has to have those marks in it to and I would think it better to have a smooth edge then one with cuts and gouges in it.I do this cause I believe I get a better and sharper edge.
Just My $0.02

 

[AlanZ]

I use a series of 3 inch 3M radial brushes to smooth/polish the gouge flutes

 

[Ian Thorn]

A hard stitched clothe buff on the other side of your grinder with fine paste will clean it for you some wet woods make a real mess in the flute cheery is one

Cheers Ian

 

[Bill Boehme]

I don't do any "polishing", whatever that means, but I do clean up the flute with a diamond hone if I feel a strong burr or if there is cooked on resin. I have an Alan Lacer diamond hone which has two curves edges that closely match the curvature of most of the bowl gouges that I have. I frequently apply some Johnson's paste wax to the gouge. It does three things:

• In this hot humid climate, it helps protect the tool from rusting.
• Waxing the outside diameter helps the gouge slide a bit smoother on the tool rest.
• Waxing the inside of the flute and the bevel helps to reduce buildup of resin next to the cutting edge.

I also notice a 25% increase in good karma when I use Johnson's Paste wax.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

i have a soapstone from John Jordan that i use, curved to match the flute, Bill do you use the Ute method to measure karma?

 

[john lucas]

I use Johnson's paste wax for all sorts of things but apparently my Karma evaporated out of it. ):

 

[Ian Thorn]

Where can I get some I can do with a bit of good karma at present

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Where can I get some I can do with a bit of good karma at present

look for concentric circles, if one looks at a mpa, tampa bay sort of sticks out

 

[Bill Boehme]

i have a soapstone .....

Try to stay focused, Charlie.

Or, is soapstone fuzzy?

 

[Bill Boehme]

I use Johnson's paste wax for all sorts of things but apparently my Karma evaporated out of it. ):

Apparently, Karma is a VOC. I left the lid off my can of JPW a couple days ago and now what I have left is nearly dried out non-karmanized wax. In desperation, I tried Simonized wax, but it didn't have the same karma.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Try to stay focused, Charlie.

Or, is soapstone fuzzy?

not fuzzy, i believe the stone is novaculite, it is relatively less compact than hard arkansas oilstone resulting in high porosity and less density than the hard arkansas oilstone.

anyway it works good(well,super,)

 

[Brian McInturff]

I thought the white one from JJ was a ceramic stone.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

I thought the white one from JJ was a ceramic stone.

maybe John will clim in, it has less imperfections than the novaculite stone that it resembles that i have. it works good

 

[Robert Feingold]

I guess i should have mentioned, but The reason I'm asking is that I use the one way sharpening system and although my edge is super sharp I still have some problems with tear out on end grain on some bowls. I Am rubbing the bevel and operating the gouge, I believe, correctly so I'm looking for a solution. I have to use a scraper to clean it up. I'm having this problem turning elm, cherry, black locust and other hardwoods.

 

[hockenbery]

I guess i should have mentioned, but The reason I'm asking is that I use the one way sharpening system and although my edge is super sharp I still have some problems with tear out on end grain on some bowls. I Am rubbing the bevel and operating the gouge, I believe, correctly so I'm looking for a solution. I have to use a scraper to clean it up. I'm having this problem turning elm, cherry, black locust and other hardwoods.

Robert,

Tearout usually results from cutting a fiber with no supporting fiber behind it or pulling the fiber instead of cutting it.
On the out side of a bowl cutting from foot to rim will give a clean cut because each fiber has one behind it until you get to rim where there is air behind it. On the inside cut from rim to center and each fiber is cut with one behind it.
Punky wood is hard to cut without getting tearout.

Scraping and Cuts without riding the bevel will pull and break off fibers - tearout
Cutting rim to foot on the outside will give tearout.
Taking heavy cuts will have leave more tearout than a light cut.

Ride the bevel, point the flute in the direction of cut, take light cuts on the outside from foot to rim and you will get a clean surface.

The area I inspect is the back side of the endgrain . As i cut foot to rim most of the cut is horizontal but as the bowl comes around a tiny bit of the cut is more vertical.
And the front of the endgrain has fibers behind it and gets cut cleanly the backside of the endgrain will be the worst surface since these fibers have no vertical fiber behind them.
Usually there is no visible tearout but you can feel a fuzziness. This cleans up easily with a shear scrape or sanding.

My guess is you either are not riding the bevel or you are cutting in the wrong direction or you're turning punky wood.

With a real sharp tool you can cut in the wrong direction and get away with it. I sometimes do on the outside of natural edge pieces to save and cut the bark cleanly.
It is a trade off.

Hope this helps.
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Try to stay focused, Charlie.

Or, is soapstone fuzzy?

not fuzzy, i believe the stone is novaculite, it is relatively less compact than hard arkansas oilstone resulting in high porosity and less density than the hard arkansas oilstone.

anyway it works good(well,super,)

Actually, I was talking about the picture you posted. It is indisputable proof that soapstone is fuzzy.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I guess i should have mentioned, but The reason I'm asking is that I use the one way sharpening system and although my edge is super sharp I still have some problems with tear out on end grain on some bowls. I Am rubbing the bevel and operating the gouge, I believe, correctly so I'm looking for a solution. I have to use a scraper to clean it up. I'm having this problem turning elm, cherry, black locust and other hardwoods.

Sharp is as much presentation as edge - perhaps even more. Proper presentation is what allows most turners to go from their grinding wheel at 100 and make a clean cut. While what Al says is true, it does not sound as if it pertains to your problem. Take a look at your shavings. First, you are making shavings, not "chips" or dust, right? What you're looking for is a tapered shaving. You don't really care much about the side of the shaving left from the prior cut, you want to look opposite. That side should look like a feather's edge, which shows you you're working your way out of the cut with an edge as close to parallel to the new surface a possible. Most tearout, in my experience, comes from not sneaking out of the cut, but forcing an edge into, not slicing along the path of the rotation. You want the very least lift you can get.

Gross view. Look at the diagonal section in the center where it's most obvious and you see smooth side where the gouge first contacted the wood, feather where it left. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/ShavingWide.jpg

Fine view shows tiny twists, and since the cut is so shallow, some dust where the shaving breaks over endgrain. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/InsideTrim.jpg This is similar to the type you probably get from shear scraping.

So go for shavings, and then check for shape. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Forged-in-Use.jpg

Heresy here, but if you do your cutting a bit above centerline outside, and a bit below inside, you're ahead on that feather edge right away. You will find your lower rpm - 420 to 720 - more likely to give you shavings, because you can advance the tool at a more suitable rate.

 

[MichaelMouse]

i have a soapstone from John Jordan that i use, curved to match the flute, Bill do you use the Ute method to measure karma?

JJ's page shows his as ceramic. Whatever chemistry is behind the powder, means it's baked, as is novaculite, if you want to be picky.

Soapstone, composed of talc, would be a VERY fine abrasive, but inhalation of the crystals is, they tell us, a risk. Which does little to reduce the number of soapstone carvers - at least in their youth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soapstone for a Wiki quickie. Note it's also "metamorphic," which means baked.

 

[john lucas]

John's tool is ceramic. I just lost mine Have to get another one. I did a demo for a club and somehow it dissappeared. Oh well, that happens.

When I have tearout problems (and I've been turning a long time), I can usually solve it by one of 3 things, and we'll assume you have a sharp tool, but there's sharp and then there's really sharp.
First thing I do is try to rotate the tool so the shaving is coming down at a shear angle across the cutting edge. I'm usually cutting this way anyway but I might see if I can rotate it to make it a steeper shear angle.
Second is to not force the cut. Slow down your feed rate by relaxing your hands and let the tool do the cutting. Don't push it through the wood, let it cut. This is sometimes easier if you speed the lathe up but of course that can sometimes lead to danger so don't do that unless you know the wood is sound. The tool will cut just as good with a slower feed rate.
3rd, I'll simply pick up a tool with a sharper cutting angle. My bowl gouge is ground to about 50 degrees as measured from the flute down the bevel. I have one ground at 40 degrees and my Thompson detail gouge is ground to 35 degrees. If I can still rub the bevel I will switch to these tools. If these don't work or the bowl is too steep to let me rub the bevel I will switch to the Hunter tools which have a cutting tip angle less that 35 ( I don't have a way to measure them accurately but they appear to be somewhere between 25 and 30)
Normally one of those 3 things gets rid of my tearout.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Actually, I was talking about the picture you posted. It is indisputable proof that soapstone is fuzzy.

JJ's page shows his as ceramic.

the picture was fuzzy and his stone is ceramic. it does a good job.

this picture is still a little fuzzy, thank you mm for url for stones

the middle white stone is novaculite, the ceramic is cooler to the touch and heavy for size

 

[robo hippy]

The only possible reason to hone the flutes of your gouge is if the manufacturer did a really rough job of milling it. This is not usually a problem. When I used to use my gouges for the high angle 'shear scrape' I would hone off the burr because it interfered with the cut.

I do not think it is possible to remove all of the tear out on any side grained/bowl turning. In 1/4 inch pie segments, you turn uphill/against the grain, and down hill with the grain. Cutting up hill, you will always have some tear out due to 'unsupported fiber'. The idea is to minimalize this. With high angle shear cuts, and light pressure, this is generally accomplished, well as long as your tools are sharp. If you think you have it all out, rub your hand slowly around the outside of the bowl, and though the tear out might be sandable/removable with 220 grit, you can still feel it. If the tear out is still too rough, lubricating the fiber with water or oil (some use sanding sealer) will aid cleaner cutting.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

..... this picture is still a little fuzzy.......

Focus seems to be OK, the problem is motion blur due to a very slow shutter speed (0.3 seconds).

 

[KellyDunn]

I polished a few flutes. Fine dremel stuff did a good job of getting the undulations out of the flutes. But in my style of turning the only time I noticed any improvement is when I needed a very fine finish cut and I honed and polished the cutting edge. But that work is gone in just a few cuts. I got to work with a Dway gouge a couple days ago. Don Derry is here doing demos. I gave him koa to work with. During lunch I could tell the koa had really dulled them up. So he sharpened them And I tried them out. He also uses Hannes grinds on them. Dways have a polished flute. My limited time using them told me the steel is great and I got a very sweet cut on the end grain. Did the polished flute help? Didnt hurt. He did not do a huge amount of turning. But that was the only time he sharpened them. I only hone spindle gouges and the skew. I dont use the skew much. But I take Alan Lacers diamond hone to the inside before I polish the outside edge. For that one or two cuts before that edge is gone the sound is more of a sizzle and the cut is far finer than just off the grinder. So in that case I say yes polishing the flute works for a better cut.

 

[robo hippy]

I think Dave tumbles his gouges with ceramic beads before sharpening, which does leave them a bit more polished than other gouges. Not sure if it is a critical improvement. He does have high quality tools.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

I polished a cheap gouge one time that had rough lines inside. I just turned a dowel a hair smaller than the curve of the gouge minus room for gluing sandpaper to the dowel. Just worked my way through the grits and got a very polished flute. I was new at turning then and it didn't improve my turning at all but it sure felt like I was doing something positive.