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finish problems

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I'm hoping that someone can help me out here. I have been using the Beal system to wax and buff many of my pieces but I'm not totally happy with the results I'm getting. I think the problem is not with the wax and buff but rather with the finish I'm putting underneath. I have tried wipe on poly and I have tried friction polish but I seem to be getting polish lines underneath the wax. It's very subtle and most people probably wouldn't even catch it but I know it's there and in the right light it's not hard to find. I have tried to catch it in a pic and I'll attach it but I'm not sure you can see it. Anyway, what is a good finish to use under the wax or is it just something I'm doing a little wrong? If you look right at the reflection I think you can see the finish lines I'm talking about.
 

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Dennis J Gooding

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Hard to tell from the photo, but I see some blurred lines running around the piece near the largest diameter. As a guess, either the finish was not fully cured or you overheated the piece while buffing and softened the finish, causing it to flow. Another possibility is latent sanding scratches from an early coarse grit that did not get removed by finer grits. These often are hard to see until the piece is polished.

Dennis
 
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You're applying the finish on the lathe, and don't want the the lines that go 'round and 'round? Level the finish properly if you don't want them. With the poly, you can simply flow on and allow the final coat to self-level. If you don't like that approach, use a buff off at random directions to obscure or eliminate the lines before waxing.

Friction polishes using shellac as their resin can be dissolved and flattened by using a French Polishing lubricated pad and random solvent rub. Shellac will burn through if you're not delicate with the buff, so I would buff by hand if I wanted waxed shellac.
 

Bill Boehme

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It appears to me that the finish was applied with the lathe running. If you want an absolutely smooth finish, it is necessary to hand sand off the lathe to a very fine grit to bring out the irridescence of the wood. I usually sand to at least P1500 for a highh gloss lacquer finish although P400 will give a smooth finish without visible scratches, but less chatoyance. The same applies to finishing. I prefer spraying lacquer for getting the best gloss finish and very lightly knock down imperfections with about P800 between coats. All of my sanding above P400 is done off the lathe.

p.s., I don't care for the buffing wheels. A properly applied finish doesn't need it and is likely to do more harm than good. It works just fine on a so-so finish. It seems to me that woodturners get carried away with applying too many different things on a single item.
 
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Hard to tell from the photo, but I see some blurred lines running around the piece near the largest diameter. As a guess, either the finish was not fully cured or you overheated the piece while buffing and softened the finish, causing it to flow. Another possibility is latent sanding scratches from an early coarse grit that did not get removed by finer grits. These often are hard to see until the piece is polished.

Dennis

I'm glad to see you mention this because it is what I suspect too. I'm pretty sure that it's not latent sanding scratches because I think I would recognize that. Also I was wondering, is it possible to apply to much friction polish as with a second coat and get this problem? Thanks for the reply and I will also take into account the other responses.
 
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It appears to me that the finish was applied with the lathe running. If you want an absolutely smooth finish, it is necessary to hand sand off the lathe to a very fine grit to bring out the irridescence of the wood. I usually sand to at least P1500 for a highh gloss lacquer finish although P400 will give a smooth finish without visible scratches, but less chatoyance. The same applies to finishing. I prefer spraying lacquer for getting the best gloss finish and very lightly knock down imperfections with about P800 between coats. All of my sanding above P400 is done off the lathe.

p.s., I don't care for the buffing wheels. A properly applied finish doesn't need it and is likely to do more harm than good. It works just fine on a so-so finish. It seems to me that woodturners get carried away with applying too many different things on a single item.
I've never tried spraying lacquer. What do you use for a sprayer and what is the proper technique? Right now I feel like my finish is just mediocre and I would really like to improve it.
 

Bill Boehme

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Deft gloss spray lacquer in the rattle can (except that it does nor have a marble) works fine. Even better is using pre-cat lacquer which you should be able to get from an automotive paint dealer. It would be a LOT more expensive to get your own spray rig and use post-cat lacquer. Any kind of friction finish is going to be problematic because:
1. Subsequent coats dissolve the previous coats.
2. Heat causes the finish (almost always primarily shellac) to melt and flow.
3. The rapid drying makes it difficult to level the finish without streaks.

BTW, polyurethane takes about a week to cure if used as it comes in the can. It is possible that you are buffing it too early. The surface may be dry, but not beneath the surface.
 
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Deft gloss spray lacquer in the rattle can (except that it does nor have a marble) works fine. Even better is using pre-cat lacquer which you should be able to get from an automotive paint dealer. It would be a LOT more expensive to get your own spray rig and use post-cat lacquer. Any kind of friction finish is going to be problematic because:
1. Subsequent coats dissolve the previous coats.
2. Heat causes the finish (almost always primarily shellac) to melt and flow.
3. The rapid drying makes it difficult to level the finish without streaks.

BTW, polyurethane takes about a week to cure if used as it comes in the can. It is possible that you are buffing it too early. The surface may be dry, but not beneath the surface.
Thanks Bill, I really appreciate the help! I will definitely give it a try and I'll let you know how I make out.
 
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Out of interest what Friction polish are you using?

I had used Mylands Friction Polish, but that's not something that I normally do on larger pieces. I had just done it here because I was having trouble with the poly when I waxed and buffed it. I had suspected that it hadn't thoroughly cured and I thought that the friction polish might be a better option. So, I have two pieces that I will be sanding back down and refinishing. What I had forgotten to ask Bill was whether I should use a sanding sealer before I use the lacquer.
 

john lucas

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With friction finish you have to "melt in the finish" YOu need to practice with the speed of the lathe, the amount of finish on the rag, and the pressure you use. I'm not a fan of friction finishes because they don't seem to hold up under use. They are fast which is why people use them.
What you have to do is watch the finish. When you have the pressure and speed right you can sort of see the finish move with the rag. Sometimes after I apply the finish there will be a spot or two that just doesn't look right. What I do is add just a drop or so of the finish on the rag and then rub this on the problem area. The additional finish on the rag helps melt the previous finish. This is tricky. On occasions I have made it worse instead of better an have to sand it down and start over.
These bad places can be leveled with the Beal system. You have to look very closely. Use the brown wheel and look close until all blemishes are level. Most people leave to soon and the white wheel just polishes the defects in the finish. Ideally you have a perfect finish before ever starting with the Beal but if not, that's what the brown wheel is for.
 
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I normally use the friction polish on smaller items like Christmas ornaments and I will probably stick to that from now on. I've had pretty good luck with it there and like you said it's fast and easy.
 
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Friction polish (a shellac/wax mix) is fine for small items; not so hot for larger turnings.

You should consider the kind of wood you're working to make your finishing choices. Open pore woods like walnut don't necessarily lend themselves to gloss finishes unless the grain is filled as shiney pores tend to interfere with the form and color.

I like to use a application of Krylon Matte (artist's fix-a-tif) that is sprayed on the piece while still on the lathe (but not running). It does two things: a) it acts as a light sanding sealer, and b) it reveals any of those pesky cross-grain scratches that I may have missed. In addition, since it is lacquer-based, you can top-coat it with lacquer (spray only here) and get 100% burn-in for the finish film.

It will also make a very nice finish for a display piece as several more coats (off the lathe) will then burnish up to a lovely sheen using some 4-0 wool or gray synthetic.
 
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It probably wouldn't hurt to go to Wood Central and scroll down to Russ's Corner and read some of our late Russ Fairfield's information about finishing. First class information and should be required reading for all people new to turning.
 
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I'm hoping that someone can help me out here. I have been using the Beal system to wax and buff many of my pieces but I'm not totally happy with the results I'm getting. I think the problem is not with the wax and buff but rather with the finish I'm putting underneath. I have tried wipe on poly and I have tried friction polish but I seem to be getting polish lines underneath the wax. It's very subtle and most people probably wouldn't even catch it but I know it's there and in the right light it's not hard to find. I have tried to catch it in a pic and I'll attach it but I'm not sure you can see it. Anyway, what is a good finish to use under the wax or is it just something I'm doing a little wrong? If you look right at the reflection I think you can see the finish lines I'm talking about.

Richard, speed is your biggest enemy. As you can see on the largest dia. of your piece is the only area that has the lines you are talking about. This is the only area that reached the critical temp (Melting Point of the finish) any finish that contains a shellac will do this. All I would do is steel wool off the area of concern, slow down the lathe a bit and reapply the original.
Otherwise you have a beautiful finish on a great looking project.
 
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To much carnauba wax?

I'm hoping that someone can help me out here. I have been using the Beal system to wax and buff many of my pieces but I'm not totally happy with the results I'm getting. I think the problem is not with the wax and buff but rather with the finish I'm putting underneath. I have tried wipe on poly and I have tried friction polish but I seem to be getting polish lines underneath the wax. It's very subtle and most people probably wouldn't even catch it but I know it's there and in the right light it's not hard to find. I have tried to catch it in a pic and I'll attach it but I'm not sure you can see it. Anyway, what is a good finish to use under the wax or is it just something I'm doing a little wrong? If you look right at the reflection I think you can see the finish lines I'm talking about.

After looking at your picture a couple of times I have to ask if you are applying to much carnauba wax to the piece. The reason I'm suspecting that is because when I first started using the Beal buffing system I was putting to much wax on my wheel and my pieces looked just like your picture. It was melting and causing streaks and wouldn't buff off. Also when buffing walnut or any dark wood you might want to skip the "White Diamond" wheel to avoid what looks like white build up in the pores of the piece.
 
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After looking at your picture a couple of times I have to ask if you are applying to much carnauba wax to the piece. The reason I'm suspecting that is because when I first started using the Beal buffing system I was putting to much wax on my wheel and my pieces looked just like your picture. It was melting and causing streaks and wouldn't buff off. Also when buffing walnut or any dark wood you might want to skip the "White Diamond" wheel to avoid what looks like white build up in the pores of the piece.

I had noticed the pores looking like that but I hadn't connected it to the white diamond. Thanks for the tip.
 
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Yes, hand sanding will remove circular micro-scratching, that occurs when we only sand on-lathe. Also, I always wait a day or two (in the case of friction polish), or the full cure period (up to several weeks for some finishes), before buffing. Lastly, it looks like there might be some white diamond particles in the pores of that dark wood. A shoe shine buffing brush sometimes removes them; or, you can bypass the white diamond step with open pore dark woods (black walnut, for instance).
 
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It probably wouldn't hurt to go to Wood Central and scroll down to Russ's Corner and read some of our late Russ Fairfield's information about finishing. First class information and should be required reading for all people new to turning.

I read the article in Russ's Corner as you suggested. A lot of valuable information that makes you realize just how little you actually know. I think I will print it out and keep it handy in the shop for future info. I'm not sure about lacquer finish after reading his article. It sounds daunting. What I really take away from everything is that you gather all the information you can and then find out what works best for you personally.
 
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Richard, in looking at the photo I agree that its buildup of the friction finish and that steel wool will take care of it. I use poly for most of my work. But I dont build it up. I buff the finish back to the wood before putting on wax. I then buff the wax. I have been pretty happy with what I got going for many years. I use rattle can lacquer for small items. If I get the lines I use a bit of steel wool. I even lightly buff and wax the small items. But you got to be gentle with the buff.
 
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In addtion to 0000 steel wool, you can mix some rottenstone in with oil or wax to rub out the finish to a higher gloss than is left after the steel wool has been used to remove the lines. I've also had luck with NON-SILICONE CONTAINING rubbing compound (from the auto parts store). Very important to ensure that it contains no silicone. Did I say that enough times? No silicone!!!
 
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I'll probably try to fix this piece with just the steel wool and rebuffing as suggested. I have another one(that I didn't post a picture of) where I'm pretty sure that the problem is the poly not being totally cured before I waxed and buffed. I plan to sand that one back off and redo it with lacquer but I think I'll wait for warmer weather when I don't have to have the furnace running and I can control the dust a little better. I think it must be a good sign that I'm getting critical enough of my work that the little things drive me nuts. I showed these pieces to my wife and she says, "they look great, what are you talking about?" I take them over to the window, roll them around in the sunlight and tell her look right there. She just rolls her eyes at me and walks away. :)
 
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In addtion to 0000 steel wool, you can mix some rottenstone in with oil or wax to rub out the finish to a higher gloss than is left after the steel wool has been used to remove the lines. I've also had luck with NON-SILICONE CONTAINING rubbing compound (from the auto parts store). Very important to ensure that it contains no silicone. Did I say that enough times? No silicone!!!

antique furniture restorers use this method to insure a gloss finish.
 
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I'll probably try to fix this piece with just the steel wool and rebuffing as suggested. I have another one(that I didn't post a picture of) where I'm pretty sure that the problem is the poly not being totally cured before I waxed and buffed. I plan to sand that one back off and redo it with lacquer but I think I'll wait for warmer weather when I don't have to have the furnace running and I can control the dust a little better. I think it must be a good sign that I'm getting critical enough of my work that the little things drive me nuts. I showed these pieces to my wife and she says, "they look great, what are you talking about?" I take them over to the window, roll them around in the sunlight and tell her look right there. She just rolls her eyes at me and walks away. :)

I have used the deft sanding sealer and then their laquer finish in high gloss with great results. I also used 4 ott (0000) steel wool between coats. ohh be sure to use a tac rag.
 
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