Captive Hollowing/ Preventing Re-injury

[bfwhitma]

It was a matter of time before I damaged tendons at the elbow from woodturning--probably hollowing. I have read many good comments. I am rehabbing well after period of immobilization with some good exercises and looking forward to going back to the lathe and I received some good advice about not overgripping, shaping my handles out of round, using more of my body close in, stance, etc. But the question is whether anyone who has actually had the injury recommends a specific captive system that allows me to have the old feel of woodturning without the torque. I have heard good reports on Kobra, JT, less impressive Carter. What's your best shot on this for me? I probably will use some sort of compression brace familiar to us tennis players at the upper arm.

Ever grateful.

Brad

 

[Mark Mandell]

Brad,

Having developed brachial plexitis and carpal tunnel in my left arm, hand and shoulder I can understand your issue quite well; scary when your hand and arm go numb and weak all of a sudden while you're turning wood.

The KOBRA has allowed me to keep turning as it takes all the stress off my left arm and allows me to guide the tools with easily controlled whole body movements rather than trying to muscle the tool into the wood.

It will be most beneficial and effective on either a short bed machine or one where you can slide the headstock, allowing you to work from the end and either side of the bed.

You will not "need" that G.I. Joe Kung Foo grip any more.

 

[odie]

It was a matter of time before I damaged tendons at the elbow from woodturning--probably hollowing. I have read many good comments. I am rehabbing well after period of immobilization with some good exercises and looking forward to going back to the lathe and I received some good advice about not overgripping, shaping my handles out of round, using more of my body close in, stance, etc. But the question is whether anyone who has actually had the injury recommends a specific captive system that allows me to have the old feel of woodturning without the torque. I have heard good reports on Kobra, JT, less impressive Carter. What's your best shot on this for me? I probably will use some sort of compression brace familiar to us tennis players at the upper arm.

Ever grateful.

Brad

Brad.......hope things work out for you.

I could not suggest a captive hollowing rig, because I have no experience with them. I am commenting because I'm curious about your comment about out-of-round handles. Up to this moment, I've never heard of this. Could you tell us a little about this, and what you expect to accomplish with this strategy?

How do you shape them, and into what shape?

ooc

 

[john lucas]

I switched from hand hollowing to a Lyle Jamieson style rig many years ago because I could tell that it was stressing my shoulder. Of course I didn't have any instruction on how to do it with less stress. It's almost relaxing using that rig. It took all the white knuckle out and I still have plenty of feel for the cut.

 

[glenkey]

Brad there have been several threads of this type on different fourms.
What I have learned is that the Monster system is widely liked and well priced.

 

[Brian McInturff]

I have the monster and would say it worked well for me. I didn't have the same issues as you but from a medical stand point just as bad(8 fused disc in my back). It took a little getting use to as I really liked the feel of doing it by hand. After a couple hollow forms it felt natural using it.
On the handles - I'd recommend the ergonomic ally correct handles by Johannes Michelsen. Most comfortable handle I've used and own.

 

[Harry Robinette]

I went to using all D.Thompson handles and tools.I have nerve damage in my thumbs.My Doc said you grip a round handle all the way around and it will put pressure all the way around. You well also grip it tighter then a rounded off square handle. I find this is true my thumbs don't hurt anymore because I don't grip the handles tight anymore.The rounded off square handle gets griped by the corners which is actually more comfortably and much easier on my thumbs.
JMHO

 

[Ian Thorn]

Odie I have Turned handles out of round by off centre turning glued up 2 light coloured pieces with dark one in the centre they look good as well.

cheers Ian

 

[Syd Sellers]

Hollowing rig.

Hollowing is not easy on the body.... So I just completed a unit that is close to what the Monster unit looks like. Now this is a dream to use, no effort required.

 

[Richard Coers]

I have an articulated and captured system. In my opinion, the captured is not quite as versatile, but much easier on the body. The articulated system takes more effort since the multiple pivots require more physical effort to control. The captured is one long lever.

 

[Mark Mandell]

I have an articulated and captured system. In my opinion, the captured is not quite as versatile, but much easier on the body. The articulated system takes more effort since the multiple pivots require more physical effort to control. The captured is one long lever.

Richard,

I sold my captured rig as it required too much small muscle work.

Your comment about "one long lever" is particularly applicable to the Kobra. The attached photo is of me and my rig that appeared in Woodworker West Magazine as part of Ellis Walentine's article on hollow turning tools and systems. As you can see in the photo, when I have the handle locked to my hip, hollowing is done by simply leaning towards the work piece to move that long lever. This way I can work from the end or either side of the bed. [The lathe was not running for the pic, so no safety glasses ]

I had a friend here last week who teaches and demonstrates turning, but who didn't care much for hollowing even though he spent time with Ellsworth. I set him up with a form to hollow, and, after I broke him of trying to muscle the tool into the wood, he turned with a smile and commented,"Hey, this is just too easy."

 

[Bernie Weishapl]

I also have both the Monster captured and articulating arm unit. I have arthritis in my hands and shoulders. Hand hollowing was ruled out a couple of years ago by my Doc. Like Richard said the captured system works really well and I can hollow for several hours without a lot of pain. The articulating arm unit takes a little more work but still lets me hollow with little or no pain.

 

[bfwhitma]

Thanks Everyone--Exercises--KOBRA

The mostly square with rounded edge handle idea came from David Ellsworth and I also thank him for other suggestions. I have loved his down to earth approach to tools, wood, the studio, the process, and art. I think the captive rig probably KOBRA gets the nod for hollowing at this point. If anyone lives in SE PA vicinity and has one, I would love to see it close up. I will approach the open forms gently and with handle tucked in to hip and body absorbing the hits more than forearm and I will look at the J. Michelsen and D Thompson handles as well.

I recommend a series of rehab exercises you can do at home twice a day with a can of artichokes in your hand--www.hughston.com.

Especially for those of us with no turn-off valve built in, we need to have a little guy on our shoulders always reminding us of what we have learned and telling us to take a break (I will try a kitchen timer). The big treefall here pushed me over the limit.

All the best,

Brad
www.bradturnsgreen.com

 

[Mark Mandell]

If anyone lives in SE PA vicinity and has one, I would love to see it close up.

Sent you an email.

 

[john lucas]

Well since I have a degree in Physical Education and have been a fitness freak my whole life I am a strong proponent of exercise and weight lifting to ward off all these injuries or to rehabilitate after one does occur.
Many many years ago a turner mentioned something about making tool handles larger to ward off Carpal Tunnel. I did but eventually got it anyway from all the computer work I did at work. Doctor recommended Surgery. I never went back to him. I started working the opposite muscles to the ones I use when I type. (these are called Antagonist muscles). Oh I also had developed Tennis Elbow. Anyway after 6 months of those exercises (which I still do today) I have virtually no symptoms. That was over 7 years ago. Occasionally I'll wake up at night with a numb hand or once in while have tingling fingers but did it all with no surgery.
I'm now going through a rotator cuff problem. Rather than go to the doctor who I'm sure would want to cut on me, I worked up some exercises along with some I found online for rotator cuff rehab. It's only been 2 weeks but I can now tuck in my shirt without pain. Still can't put my in the pants pistol holster on but it doesn't hurt like it did 2 weeks ago so it's getting better. I'll know more in another month or so. I feel it will work.
I also think lathe height and your posture are very important for turning especially hollowing. I have been paying closer attention to that and notice that when I hollow without the captured rig I am much more relaxed. I still prefer the captured rig for larger hollow pieces, it's just too easy, but for small ones I can have it hollowed before I get the other one set up.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have the Advanced Lathe Tools hollowing rig (Steve Sinner rig sold through The Sanding Glove). I did some fine tuning of the sliding surfaces (initially there was a small amount of drag, but crocus cloth followed by Johnson's Paste Wax) and now things work very smoothly. However, the drawback of such a massive rig is that there is a lot of inertia to overcome in getting all that steel moving. The silver lining is that the mass of the boring bar makes for very smooth cuts. Control is more easily done with upper body motion than using finger control on this rig.

John, setting up the rig along with the Robust steady rest and outboard tool rest is almost as good as a weight lifting workout. With you list of repetitive motion injuries, I am not so sure that being physically fit is a good thing. My experiences when going to the doctor with some similar injuries is that surgery is the last resort after exhausting all other forms of treatment. I think that years ago many doctors had surgery as the first option, but things are different these days.

 

[Gretch Flo]

surgery

A chance to cut is a chance to cure!!!!!
Years ago I had a neuroma on foot. For many years I had to wear a loose shoe and could only x country ski or down hill for an hour and the boot had to come off no matter where I was!!!!. A quick surgery (neurectomy) corrected the problem over night.
I had bilat carpal tunnel with numb hands come on over night, Had an electromyogram (EMG) and the Dr doing the test said my orthopod wouldn't want to wait as the neurons (not just the outside of the nerve) were being affected and wouldn't regenerate. Had bil surg and when the local wore off that night the numbness was mostly gone. The surgery is just a quick release of constrictive tissue (usually -unless rheumaoid arthritis) -I had Dequarvain's stenosing tenosynovitis of right hand (the entensors of the thumb) and had to wait for surgery til I had an "opening" -2 months-in my schedule and by the time surg came I could barely hold things with my thumb. It was an 8 minute surg -again a release of constrictive tissue over the tendon tunnel. When local wore off, no pain and normal. When the left hand "went" a year later I got the surg done within a week. Then I got a trigger thumb on the right hand, and was getting very sore-again a release of constrictive tissue corrected it immediately on the surg table. he lets me keep my glasses and look in on the surg site and see what's going on.
Needless to say my orthopod and I are "buddies". He gives me wood too!!!! (he has xmas tree farm and some woods).
A bunch of us at the vet clinic at MSU gave him a thank you party for helping loads of us, in a timely fashion, and chipped in and bought him a Stihl chain saw (think he had an old Husky). He's also done bilat shoulder surg (I flunked Physical ther) for biceps tears and bilat arthroscopic hip surg for torn labrums of the sockets. The latter 2 were not so quick. But because of these surg I can still cut/split firewood , operate small animals at the surg table, work 3 1\2 gardens in the spring/summer/fall, and lastly (more importantly??) work at the lathe many hours a day.
A chance to cut is a chance to cure!!!!! Gretch

 

[john lucas]

Gretch I had to take a pain pill after just reading your adventures. Hope my workouts keep me away from that but I'm 63 now and know that it's coming some day.

 

[Kevin Wood]

Well since I have a degree in Physical Education and have been a fitness freak my whole life I am a strong proponent of exercise and weight lifting to ward off all these injuries or to rehabilitate after one does occur.
I'm now going through a rotator cuff problem. Rather than go to the doctor who I'm sure would want to cut on me, I worked up some exercises along with some I found online for rotator cuff rehab. It's only been 2 weeks but I can now tuck in my shirt without pain. Still can't put my in the pants pistol holster on but it doesn't hurt like it did 2 weeks ago so it's getting better. I'll know more in another month or so. I feel it will work.
.

I injured my rotator cuff back in 2005. I had full range of motion so the doctor did not feel surgery was needed. My injury impacted external rotation mostly. I just had to do rehab exercises for both internal and external rotation. After 3 to 4 months of rehab exercises, I eased back into my normal workout routines and by summer I was lifting pretty heavy. I have been a fitness freak as well and know the human anatomy pretty well. I was pretty ignorant of the rotator cuff though until the injury in 2005; afterwards I got very familiar with it’s makeup.

Since 2005 incident, I have tried to regularly keep my rotator cuff muscles in shape. Unfortunately, I reinjured this past December. I have not been working them as much the past 6 months and maybe that contributed to my injury. The way I injured it was weird so maybe I was susceptible to injuring either way. I still have full range of motion so I did not see a doctor but I did google to see if there were any good books. I wanted to fully understand the rotator cuff and what is needed to keep it conditioned. From what I found, the following book had great reviews. It explains things so the average person can understand. I knew a lot of the information already but what I had not been doing is stretching exercises. I think the book would be very beneficial to most people who have shoulder issues or just want to prevent them.

If you google the following book, you will find plenty of good reviews. The book discusses how to treat and prevent rotator cuff injuries. Hope this helps out.

“Treat Your Own Rotator Cuff by Jim Johnson”

One suggestion I have is to get some micro weights (1/4 lb, 1/2 lb, 3/4 lb,and 1 lb); a set will cost you around $50 but worth the money. I do most of my rotator cuff exercises on a cable machine and the weight increments are way too much. At my gym, they go 2 1/5, 7 1/2, 12 1/2 increments and those are too much for your rotator cuff. Even hanging a 2 1/2 lb plate on the stack to go from 2 1/2 lbs to 5 lbs. is too big a jump. You really need to go in 1/4 to 1/2 lb increments. Normally, I will have both a 2 1/2 lb plate and one of my micro plate hanging on the pin so I can slowly move up in weight.

 

[Ronald Campbell]

Brad I do a lot of hollow forms and have done them the last 3 years. I had a D handle system for the first year. It was difficult to set up and it took a great deal of fine tuning.
I now have a Carter Hollow Roller. It is so easy to set up and I am not fooling with tuning it. I find it very safe. I have Grandkids that are 8 and 9 and they have used it. In the Dec issue of Woodturning Design I wrote a review of the Hollow Roller. I have much less fatigue with the captive systems.

I would recommend you get with your local club and get out and see if any of the members will let you drive their system.
Good luck

 

[john lucas]

Kevin Thanks, I'll look at that book. I'm doing my exercises with 8lbs. Feels about right. I am still able to do my full shoulder routine with heavy weights. That's why at first I was wondering if it really was rotator cuff but the symptoms sound just like 2 friends who had the problem

 

[Mark Mandell]

Kevin Thanks, I'll look at that book. I'm doing my exercises with 8lbs. Feels about right. I am still able to do my full shoulder routine with heavy weights. That's why at first I was wondering if it really was rotator cuff but the symptoms sound just like 2 friends who had the problem

John,

Notwithstanding your training, I strongly suggest you spring for an exam by a good orthopod rather than doing self-diagnosis based on others' symptoms which may (often are) have been inaccurately described to you.

Getting a proper analysis by a trained pro will serve as a far better guide for your self-treatment, plus you'll have the opportunity to learn about up-to-date treatment options.

 

[Brian McInturff]

Yeah. I was originally in the group of "put off surgery". I went 3 years with neck problems. Finally had surgery and they told me my forefinger, index finger, and skin areas around the elbow may never get all the feelings back(nerve damage). Had the surgery and felt great(except for the numbness). I've had 2 more back surgeries(8 fused disc total) since and the last one(July 2012) has me feeling great. No pain meds but do have loss of range of motion. I was able to start back working out again in Sept and am back to pushing some good weight. I use to bodybuild before all my surgeries(pre 2003) and was diagnosed with Disc Degenerative Disease. I am back to benching 225 and squatting 315. I only weigh 180 now so I feel like I have a new lease on life at the age of 50.
The reason for sharing this is because surgery isn't always a bad thing. Listen to the docs and get a couple opinions from other docs.

 

[john lucas]

I appreciate the advice Mark but so far Doctors have never been able to solve any problem I've had and they cost me a lot of money. On the other hand I have been able to solve my own problems and it's looking like I will this time as well.

 

[Gretch Flo]

medications

Gretch I had to take a pain pill after just reading your adventures. Hope my workouts keep me away from that but I'm 63 now and know that it's coming some day.

What I should have revealed too, was that I took anti inflammatory drugs for 5 years to be able to do aerobics (feet issues). In 2002 I was going to my annual orthopedic meeting that year in Deer Valley, Utah. 10 of us were going and they were meeting me at 5 am at my house which was on the way to the Flint airport. At 4 am I rolled over in bed, had terrible abdominal pain, "gutted' it out til we got to the airport. At the gate I regressed and ended up in the fetal position on the floor. My dept chair (took some guts for him to do that,{I think he drew the short straw} but thank god!!) said "Gretch you can't go, what hospital do you want to got it". I had only missed one meeting in 26 or 27 years and had been president of the organization so going meant a lot to me. Ambulance came and carted me off, was in surgery 4 hours later with a stomach perforation. Spent a week in the hospital.
The real scary thing was I had NOOOOOOOOOOOOO symptoms of abdominal discomfort from the NSAID's, . Thank god I did not get on that airplane with free gas blowing up my abdomen. I can only take tylenol/tramadol and was on the verge of OD'ing on the newer dosages of tylenol (frying the liver)!!!!! Just try to ignore pain. Rather have surg than drugs, Again a chance to cut is a chance to sure!!!!!! Gretch

 

[Bill Boehme]

I think that we need to face the fact that "we" are getting old -- or, at least, some of us are.

When it comes to surgically repairing damaged/injured/worn-out joints, I believe that many folks go into it with unrealistic expectations of being twenty-something again. In many cases, the doctors don't spend sufficient time with the patient discussing objectives.

 

[John Lawson]

I think that we need to face the fact that "we" are getting old -- or, at least, some of us are.

I'm sure many would agree that getting old is better than not getting old, in most cases.

 

[Ron Rutter]

Carpal tunnel comment

I appreciate the advice Mark but so far Doctors have never been able to solve any problem I've had and they cost me a lot of money. On the other hand I have been able to solve my own problems and it's looking like I will this time as well.

John. Years ago my wife was diagnosed with carpal tunnel. She said no to surgery. She had heard about vitamin B6 & started taking 600 mg/day. She cut back after 1-2 months. After 6 months problem was basically gone. For the next few years if she was driving & it flared up she took a B6 & was OK within 1/2 hour! Fine today ( at 77! ) Ron.

 

[Mark Mandell]

I'm sure many would agree that getting old is better than not getting old, in most cases.

Talkin 'bout my ge-ge-generation?

 

[bfwhitma]

Thanks again. On rehab

I am glad I started this thread because these physical things are not what we want to think about but when we have to, it's good to think broadly.

Every body and mind is different and one size does not fit all. Mark's point is key--you must consult a competent source or person before self treating. I have used Novacare Rehab for my rotator cuff and their rehab was just perfect and the Theraband exercises and wand over the head plus some dumbell circling with one hand on table are always ready for me when it twinges. As a "senior" swimmer I learned not to overextend the arm rotation.

My arm strengthening regimen is wonderful. I will be ready next month for the new tool handles and captive system--and proceed cautiously.