Photos and discussion of bowl gouge grinds

[john lucas]

I thought it was time to put photos to the gouge shapes we are talking about to help the newer turners who may not know the different grinds available. Let me say up front that you can turn just about anything with any of these. The shapes are different and how you use them may be a little different but a cutting edge is a cutting edge. It's more about how you use the tool than what the tool is.
I'm going to discuss them from the point of view of the wing and flute profile. I do have mine ground with different tip angles for different bowl shapes but for this discussion we'll assume they are the same and it's the flute and wings that makes a difference. I am not an expert on these shapes and have not traveled the word seeing the true shapes so what I call a traditional grind is my concept of how it looks and the last two are my personal grinds that are modifications of the bowl gouge grind.
Someday I'll take the time to do a video and show how I use the different part of the gouge. The shape of the wing and flute affects how and why I use the tool and it would take a video to show that.

Photo 1 is a homemade gouge tip that I made to resemble what I think is a traditional grind on a U shaped flute. Notice how the wings are very short and somewhat vertical. Because of the U shape and the way I've ground this tool the wings are a more acute angle than the tip. For this reason often use this tool to clean up torn grain by keeping the flute up and cutting with the wing. The wood passes the edge at a very steep angle and the acute sharpening angle cuts very clean.

Photo 2 is what I call the Stewart Batty Grind. I learned this watching a Demo he did. The edge is ground to 45 degrees through out so the wings and tip are all the same sharpening angle. This means that as you rotate the tool it will cut the same at any angle. It is also a V shaped flute. This one is a Henry Taylor gouge I modified. I've enjoyed learning to use this tool. Stewart claims the 45 degree angle helps you keep the pressure off the flute which helps you cut cleaner. It is an excellent tool for the push cut which Stewart excels at. It's not a good tool if you like to do a pull cut.

Photo 3 is my poor attempt at grinding the Johannes Michelson grind. It is ground from a Thompson V shaped flute gouge. This edge is totally convex both side to side and tip to bottom of bevel. I've just started to learn to sharpen this tool and use it so I'm new to it. I've heard that this tool is hard to get catches with. I haven't used it much and it does seem easy to use. In Johannes hands it is definitely and excellent tool to turn very thin hats. It's difficult to discuss the wing and tip sharpening angles because being convex I don't really know what to tell you. Here is his video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wevTPeJoOrs

Photo 4 is the classic. This is the David Ellsworth 5/8†bowl gouge sharpened using his jig. This gouge belongs to a friend and he sharpened it. You'll notice one wing is longer than the other. That often happens on the Ellsworth and Irish grind tools if your not very careful when grinding them. Davids has a sort of V shaped flute. What's different about his tool and sharpening angle is that it rolls over slightly when you sharpen the wing. This makes the sharpening angle on the wings less acute than the U shaped gouges. I've never talked to David about why he does this. In use I find that this is good for edge holding. As with any tool an acute edge will cut clean but doesn't hold an edge as long. When I use this tool with a push cut the bottom wing is often taking a huge cut and it holds an edge for a long time. This is somewhat similar to the Stewart batty grind in that the tip and wings cut somewhat similar but since the shape of the wing is different you can use this tool as a push cut or pull cut.

Photo 5 This is my grind that I use most often. It is a slight modification or the grind that comes straight off the Oneway Wolverine when you grind a Thompson V shaped gouge. I like my wings a little bit longer than usual and I grind the sharpening angle of the wings a little bit more acute than the Ellsworth gouge. This gives me a very clean cut when using a pull cut but of course doesn't hold an edge as long when roughing out bowls.

Photo 6 is a gouge I developed early on when turning my hand mirrors. I didn't know much about gouges but had been doing a lot of hand tool wood working so I understood how sharpe edges work. I found push cuts to be very difficult when cutting my hand mirrors from center to outer edge to cut the convex surface. I found a pull cut much easier to control and get a clean cut so I gradually ground the wing longer and longer and used a U shaped tool so the wing was more acute and gave a cleaner cut. I use this tool with the tool rest really low and handle way down the wood crosses the edge at a very steep angle which gives a clean cut. Because the bevel is very long at this angle it's almost impossible to get a catch. The downside is the cut angle is controlled by how you twist the tool rather than the levering with the handle so it's not as accurate and takes a lot of concentration to do it correctly.

I hope this helps at least define the difference in the various tools we talk about so when we discuss a certain grind we have something some common ground. What I wrote above is purely my opinions and area based on my practical experience but may not jive with the experts who designed these tools. I hope to learn more so let me know what you think.

 

[john lucas]

Here is photo #6, I forgot there was a 5 photo limit.

 

[Keith T.]

Hi John, concerning the Ellsworth grind that rolls inward; it makes the tool far less prone to catching when using the wing...the approach is gentler. I learned this years ago when I visited David. My wing grind was more straight-up until he corrected that. His grind also makes the tool great for end grain hollowing. It really works..

 

[john lucas]

Thanks Keith. I thought I had heard that. I have wondered if that's how Johannes grind came about. It's supposed to be even less catchy.

 

[robo hippy]

With the #1 more traditional grind, you can work up a bit more on the wing. Thing is, you need to drop the handle. If you keep the tool level, which is my favorite way, the tool is unbalanced, and can roll into the cut. I like the more blunt nose for my cut for a high shear angle, and no tendency to catch.

I used to use the swept back grind a lot, then got away from it. I use scrapers a lot for roughing, and shear (scrape) cuts for clean up.

robo hippy

 

[robo hippy]

Oh, yea, the Johannes Michaelson no bevel grind. I first saw this with Christian Burshard, who did micro thin Madrone baskets. He was using it some time ago. I remember him commenting that it shouldn't even cut because it didn't even have a bevel. I don't know where he learned it, of if he originated it.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

Good idea, John. The only suggestion that I have for the photos is to use a darker background. On some of the images the bright bevels almost disappear into the white background and the only thing that delineates the shape is a faint shadow behind the tool.

 

[Jon Minerich]

Different Grinds

Thanks John!

I appreciate the time you take to help out the newbies. Based the input of others, I did study the pictures of different grinds in the links they included in their posts. Interesting, but not helpful. You answered the "whys" which is what I believe most beginners need to understand the differences.

Please keep your post coming!

Thanks,

Jon

 

[john lucas]

Bill Don't know if that would have worked. The metal picks up any shade around it and blends in. Just for fun I'll try it this week when I have a few minutes in the studio.

 

[hockenbery]

John,
Thanks for a comprehensive overview. You have a nice article for the journal in the makings.

The most important thing about all the grinds is that they have a continuous convex edge wingtip,to wing tip.
About the longer wing that can be caused by having the pivot point for the jig off center on the wheel.
The other aspect is that sharpening jigs are just guides and the one wing needs a little more attention.

Thanks,
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill Don't know if that would have worked. The metal picks up any shade around it and blends in. Just for fun I'll try it this week when I have a few minutes in the studio.

Good point, John. I wasn't thinking and assumed that it may have been specular highlights. but obviously not. Perhaps using a background that is not as close (with gobos to block some of the light on the background) might help with the contrast as well as orienting the tools to give more of a perspective view as opposed to an orthogonal view.

 

[john lucas]

These photos were done in a rush at the end of a very long day. I can definitely shoot them better if need be. I shoot a lot of jewelry and it might take 20 minutes to an hour to get a ring looking really right. I wasn't willing to spend that much time on these.

 

[DOCworks]

Another source for new folks is the Tool Grinds library over on wood central.
http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml pictures are a very useful tool for seeing how it's supposed to look and make it much easier to copy. Thanks John.

 

[john lucas]

I believe Ellis just put the above article with the tool grinds library. I haven't looked yet but it is a great resource.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Love to look at all the interpretations. The conclusion I draw from the variety of designs/grinds is that it really doesn't make a difference where you start, while where you end up comes from practice. The grinds I carried for ten-fifteen years with the Delta were too long for the flat rest on the Nova, but I had enough experience to know that the weird wasn't me, but something else, so troubleshooting time was reduced.

 

[john lucas]

MM yea it goes back to how you use a tool, not what you use.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Hmmmmm

but I had enough experience to know that the weird wasn't me, (Hmmmmmm??????? GretchQUOTE]

 

[Bill Boehme]

... Hmmmmmm??????? Gretch

Hmmmmmmmm +1

 

[Lloyd Butler]

Both this and the Wood Central are great bits of info.

I have often wondered what roll actual flute shape played for the various grinds. As was pointed out, most sharp edges can be made to cut, but are some better suited than others?

Does the swept back wing work better on a U shaped flute or V?

Does the traditional grind work better on a U shaped flute or V?

If you are looking to regrind a bowl gouge to dress the bottom of a bowl, is there any real advantages to the U or V.

We all get use to our own tools and learn their boundries with practice. Where we tend to stumble a bit is when we start to explore new tools. It would be nice to have some sort of guide to point you in the right direction for that hunt. All new tools are fun and will likely get used, but it would be good to begin to understand why there always seems to be one or two in your rack that just do not seem to cut like you want. It could be a good grind, but just on the wrong tool body.

Definitely article material here....

Lloyd

 

[MichaelMouse]

We all get use to our own tools and learn their boundries with practice. Where we tend to stumble a bit is when we start to explore new tools. It would be nice to have some sort of guide to point you in the right direction for that hunt. All new tools are fun and will likely get used, but it would be good to begin to understand why there always seems to be one or two in your rack that just do not seem to cut like you want. It could be a good grind, but just on the wrong tool body.

Thus the value of experience. The poor workman blames his tools, it is said, but the workman who knows himself and experiences poor results uses that knowledge base to modify them.

If someone revs the lathe to mach 1.75 and stuffs a screwdriver or the nose of a gouge into the advancing wood, it's almost certain s/he will remove something. At some peril, sadly, but if s/he knows no better, and thinks that the surface has to be rough because it's called "roughing" or the only gouge to use on a bowl is a "bowl" gouge, s/he may make do. Those who rough a cylinder might pull out the latest mod of their skew chisel and attempt a regular surface after chewing the surface. We all read a lot about the dreadful skew, and misuse can really put some pucker to your pantaloons, but if the same principle of modest shear and broad skewing of the edge had been applied with the gouge, there would be no need to use the skew. Nor so many patterns to sell and grinds available to write articles about.

Basics. When you compare the tool to the task, you should be asking yourself how you will get the shear and skew that will allow you to peel. In general, the same rules apply to lathe tools that apply to all edged tools. Lower pitch peels best, but too long on the bevel and the edge becomes fragile. Mostly we fool the wood a bit by skewing the edge. If we use a gouge, we reap a double benefit, because the curvature of the flute allows us to cut progressively deeper from the leading to trailing portion of the edge. Straight edges don't allow it.

Find a comfortable spindle height and stance, and stick with it as you remake your tools. I stand straight up, within a few inches of the same place for all bowls and short spindles. Rather than bend and develop a creaky back, I change the tool, the grind, or the presentation of the tool. I have found that when the wood is sliced, the shavings drop, not fly, so I don't need any elaborate getup with a tight neck and slick front. Only when I pull cut does any of the waste come in my direction, and for normal work, I place a bag which keeps me from shoveling 95 percent of the stuff. Since I choose my tools, presentations and grinds to allow me to stand straight and keep waste out of my face, I don't use scrapers, but I don't feel the loss.

The tools should serve you, you should not serve the tools. If you can't get a fair cut with whatever contour, angle or presentation, dry fire through and find a way to do so. Sometimes it even takes a bit of a grind change. Mostly, it takes a bit of thought.

 

[hockenbery]

Both this and the Wood Central are great bits of info.

Does the swept back wing work better on a U shaped flute or V?

It works well on the V and a flute called parabolic which is a v on the sides and u on the bottom of the flute.
Parabolic works better for the Ellsworth grind and gives a nice edge on the shoulder for shear cutting.
Most of the folks I know who use the v gouge tend to grind an almost flat wing as opposed to the curved Wing on the Ellsworth gouge
I much prefer the the UV parabolic and the Ellsworth grind.

Does the traditional grind work better on a U shaped flute or V?
Traditional works better on the U shape in my opinion.



The side grind was developed by Liam O'Neil. Lots of folks have modified it.

the best way to learn new grinds is to work with someone who uses it successfully. Videos and demos can be good too.
A week long class with Michelson, or Ellsworth will teach you their respective grinds.
Lots of folks teach an Ellsworth style grind...
Al Stirt, jimmy Clewes, and Stewart batty and many others have heir own variation of the side grind.

I was fortunate to have a class with Liam O'Neil in 1995. I learned his grind and used it for about a year.
In 1996 I had a class with David Ellsworth and have used his grind since.
Had a class with Johannes Michealson in 1998 and I use his grind on a small gouge i use for finishing cuts and for hollowing small opening.

But you could just as easily learn a grind form someone in you local club. You may find over time that our grind drifts. Wings gets shorter or longer. Nose gets rounder or more pointed...

Have fun
Al

 

[Lloyd Butler]

The extra tool info is great, but I was kind of thinking to expand John's photo gallery, have a few examples of the various shaped tools and some of the points that have been brought up.

I have seen beginners grind too much off the tip of a V flute and end up with a dip right at the point, and they are not sure why it is there. They "watched the videos" and which ever they were watching did not indicate how to solve the problem. Maybe for them, a U gouge to start may be better to start to learning sharpening of the overall shape.

- The wings have much more surface area, so you tend to spend more time with those on the grind stone. The nose is very little surface area, so you need to sweep through it on your way from one wing to the other, and not sit and dilly dally or nose gets an extra bite out of it.

We have a beginner in the club who has his varigrind set-up wrong for his large bowl gouge and has managed to get the wings rolled right into the flute. For him, he claims he only uses the tip, but in reality he can only use the tip.

Info on the various grinds is good, but how to fix that sort of issue on the various shaped tools would make it richer. It has all been written down somewhere, it is just buried in threads like this as an off comment on how to fix it.

Reed made some good points about the type of cut you are looking for, and I try and show that to the beginners in hands-on if the person seems to be comfortable with the tool. If they are not comfortable, then you are adding extra details that they get lost and confused in. For them it is keep it as basic as possible to get them over that first hump.

Your tool shape really improves once you figure out the various principals of the cuts that you are trying to make.

Lloyd

 

[hockenbery]

The extra tool info is great, but I was kind of thinking to expand John's photo gallery, have a few examples of the various shaped tools and some of the points that have been brought up.

I have seen beginners grind too much off the tip of a V flute and end up with a dip right at the point, and they are not sure why it is there. They "watched the videos" and which ever they were watching did not indicate how to solve the problem. Maybe for them, a U gouge to start may be better to start to learning sharpening of the overall shape.

- The wings have much more surface area, so you tend to spend more time with those on the grind stone. The nose is very little surface area, so you need to sweep through it on your way from one wing to the other, and not sit and dilly dally or nose gets an extra bite out of it.

We have a beginner in the club who has his varigrind set-up wrong for his large bowl gouge and has managed to get the wings rolled right into the flute. For him, he claims he only uses the tip, but in reality he can only use the tip.


Lloyd

Loyd

I see two errors in sharpening the most

1. grinding the tip too much like you list above. This happens because there is les metal on the tip than the wing and it gets ground away faster.

I tell students to grind wing from just off the tip to wing end twice then make one pas from wing tip to wing tip.
When they do this they have ground the wings 3 times and the tip once. Seems to work for them quite well.

What I actually do is grind wing tips to wingtip and lift up a bit as the nose comes across the wheel. That is a bit much for some beginners.

Speeding across the tip - do students get that quickly?

2. Grinding a dip on the wings. This comes from holding the wing on the wheel in one spot. I tell them they have to keep the tool rolling on the wheel.

Al

 

[MichaelMouse]

When you freehand, you avoid those two problems because:

1) You look at the edge being formed. You don't rely on the jig.

2) You put the heel on the stone, so the tool is its own jig. What it had in the way of shape before the light pass, it still has. Don't have to worry the jig's improperly set for this handle, diameter or flute configuration.

 

[hockenbery]

When you freehand, you avoid those two problems because:

1) You look at the edge being formed. You don't rely on the jig.
.

I assume you're kidding. I have seen lots of bad grinds done without a jig.
Many including those two problems.

I can just as easily screw up a grind not using a jig as I can with a jig.

A jig is just a guide it still needs to operated properly. You need to look at the edge being formed as well as see the sparks breaking at the edge.

Jigs have made the learning curve minutes instead of weeks for the average person. Probably the single biggest advance to teaching woodturning.

While we are at it freehand is big misnomer. People use something to support the tools and maintain control.

When I sharpen spindle gouges the gouge only touches me and the wheel. But there is nothing freehand about it.
I rest the bevel on the wheel with my left hand on a platform while my righthand is anchored on my thigh..
All support to the tool is supplied by my body but there is nothing free hand about it.
Thigh pushes the edge up the wheel as I lean forward and the lower hand rotates the edge against the wheel.
Something I learned from David E a long longtime ago.

Have fun,
Al

 

[MichaelMouse]

Don't doubt you've seen a lot of people make mistakes. It's learning from them either personally or vicariously which counts. You seem to have come to a different conclusion from the confusion over flutes and angles, wings and tips than I. I figure so many and various interpretations means that they are NOT what makes a good turner, and by extension, the ability to make and re-make a particular conformation is unimportant. What is important is understanding those basic rules of wood and edge (Roy's on PBS now) so you can select the one most likely, not try to make do with the one your jig gives you when you set it a certain way. Believe it or not, even when a tool is ground straight across at a constant bevel, there are people who don't know how to use it. Has to be the easiest grind to reproduce and the easiest edge to hone as well. Just learning why lower pitch slices easier than higher isn't enough. You have to understand where that knowledge can help you, and where it won't. That goes for the work more than the tool, as I see it.

I'll just assume you're being silly contesting the standard expression for working without mechanical devices. Freehand describes it very well, whether we're talking about freshening an edge or using it. If we have metal on the lathe or CNC equipment, it counts that the tool is prepared the same way every time for a particular operation. Not when the human hand and eye do the controlling. When the turner realizes that the wheel is rotating as if on a lathe, and follows the ABCs when cutting metal, he will also cultivate the light touch which allows the smallest difference in tactile feedback to prompt him to alter the presentation when cutting wood. This is good.

I prefer more tools with different grinds and conformations over one with someone's fancy alloy and named grind. A lot easier for me to reach for the proper tool than to try and find the place to use the one I just bought because it was the new state of the art.

 

[robo hippy]

I went to a 'Saw Dust' session with the Willamette Valley Woodturners in Salem, OR yesterday, where the topic was all about sharpening gadgets and gizmos.

Some points made: You can screw up the grinding no matter which set up you use; jig/platform/water wheel/high speed/slow speed.

Platform sharpening, my preferred method, uses the platform to establish the angle, learn to feel the tool flat on the grinder rest, and roll your hands and pivot your body as you sharpen.

Free hand is almost identical to platform sharpening, with the exception of having your finger as a tool rest. Roll and pivot.

With the above two, the motions are what you already use in turning anything on the lathe, ABC: anchor the tool on the tool rest, rub the bevel and cut. Being able to 'feel' the tool on the grinding wheel is important. The difficult part is not learning a new set of skills, it is learning to apply skills you already have to a different medium.

There are grinds that can be done on platform and free hand that jigs can not do, specifically the 40/40/40 degree bowl gouge grind that Stuart Batty used. This is a grind that I don't really use, but should investigate more.

Jigs work; they determine bevel angle, and you have to set up the jig for different profiles. I personally feel that learning to free hand sharpen is no more difficult than jig learning. Thing is how well the teacher can relate those skills to the student.

Free hand sharpening is a lot faster than jig sharpening.

No consensus on which grit of wheel is best for which tool. Possible exception is the skew, which requires honing, but I don't use a skew much, though I have been tempted to use them for paint can openers.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

Here is my video showing how to correct sharpening problems. It doesn't matter if you use a jig or not, you can have these problems. I think the jig definitely helps beginners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9G16ylEZHQ

 

[robo hippy]

As an add on to my previous rant, some times I think we tend to obsess over having a perfect grind. The noses on my gouges never seem to be perfectly centered on the gouge. The wings are never identical. There are always small facets on my bevels. Point is that the grind does not have to be perfect to be able to function well. I use it till it needs to be 'refreshed', and then put a little (and I mean very little) extra time on the part that needs to be better balanced. I won't want to waste steel trying to get the perfect grind.

robo hippy

 

[Lloyd Butler]

Great video John, really helpful in recovering from a common rookie error.

The favorite or "best" sharpening methods for the various tools really seems to go along with ones hand eye coordination. If you are heavy handed, you are likely to mess up a grind not matter what method you use.

If you can not seem to keep your hands in motion with the tool to get a somewhat smooth cutting edge, not worring about facets just humps and hollows, then a sharpening jig may help you. It can handle the general shape and you'll be able to learn that when the little sparks just come over the edge, you are done. It may help you learn the light touch when needed as well. The jig will help limit some issues, but not fix everything.

If you have relatively good hand eye coordination, then you are more likely to grasp the free hand methods. They will serve you well for a good many grinds, but not everything.

Whether you choose one method or the another as a favorite does not matter, but it can help a beginner in getting started more comfortably. It may be up to an instructor or friend to show another method if the beginner is having issues, or seems to be mastering the techniques.

I use a jig for my bowl gouges to try and keep them all a consistent shape right now so that I can set down a dull tool to pick up a sharp tool and continue on. They have issues once the vessels get more than 2-3 inches deep in the bottom corner if the mouth is small, but most things I have managed just fine.



I have started to remove the heel on them to try and make the bottom corner transition a bit better. It limits the burnishing with the heel gone. The nose is still very broad on one of my gouges and I do notice it on push cuts.



Then I have one that has been ground enough that is does not sit well in the jig, so I have started to try and learn to free hand the motion on a platform to try and work towards that skill. I am still keeping it nose angle quite steep and need to tighten up the nose more.



The cutting edge is smooth, but you can not see it in the photo the many facets on the bevel.

My 5/8 gouges are a U/V cross Benjamin's Best, while my smaller bowl gouges are all U flutes.

Lloyd

 

[Jon Murphy]

Gouge jigs

A bit late in responding to this, it was a year and a half ago, but I'll toss it in in case anyone looks.

Excellent thread, but I have an update for the entries on the capabilities of jigs. I am not a beginner, but am incapable of free hand sharpening due to a left side stroke a few years back. The left hand operates and has strength, but has little "feedback" (for the technical, psychokinetic feedback - for the non-technical, I'm not sure what it is doing).

A valid comment on the jigs was that they are limited in the shapes they can form. No longer valid, Don Geiger's new Vertical Solution Plus 4 arm (a bit over a year old, a modification of his original VS) for the Wolverine base used in combination with the VariGrind jig can make any shape you want (or close enough).

The Plus 4 has a peg that locks in the basket with 4 settings for distance from the wheel. Like the old VS it also has an adjustable height for the basket. The arm is set at a standard distance from the wheel with a gauge (accounting for wheel wear). The height of the basket is set with a supplied 60 dg. beveled 5/8" "sample". That setting is done with an appropriate setting of the "distance peg" and the leg setting on the VG.

Wow, sounds complicated - it is not. Figuring out the initial settings for a shape can take some time, but once you have them it takes no more than a minute to go from "scratch" to a perfect regrind. For instance, I may have my platform tool rest on the grinder and want to grind my Thompson spindle gouge. Pull out the platform rest - put in the VS arm - set the arm to the distance with the jig (that is quickly set into the vertical column of the VS) - put the 60 dg. "sample" into the VariGrind (using the built in 2" depth gauge) - set the VG leg to "7" (I've numbered the notches 1 to 7) and the "peg" to "yellow" (the deepest) - set the height of the basket so the 60 dg. matches the face of the wheel (Sharpie test, but usually I do it by ear - listening to the sound as I hand turn the wheel) - now replace the "sample" with the gouge and reset the VG arm to notch 4 1/2 (my halves aren't really halves, they are the obtuse angle point of the notch).

Wow again - still sounds complicated, and still isn't. I purposely picked a shape that was a lot different than what I'd been using. Just got my first Thompson spindle gouge tonight and spent about an hour figuring out the settings of the "peg" and the basket height using the Sharpie test. I reground my brand new Thompson to Doug's grind perfectly in two passes (ok, nothing's perfect).

Now to the real question, it is repeatable? The exact angle of the grind, as so many of you have said, is not important. But what is important is saving steel! I sharpen, or touch up, my skews and parting tools and roughing gouges, etc. on a platform tool rest (angling it with home made MDF jigs so the tool can lie flat). I do my gouges with the VS Plus 4 and the VariGrind. It is very seldom that it takes me more than two passes to get a new clean bevel from heel to edge. I'm saving expensive steel, and the setup is only about a minute once the parameters are figured out and written down. I have a little clip board on a nail above my grinder with the settings for all my gouges.

This is getting long, but I might as well make some final comments. Don's VS Plus 4 doesn't really make all shapes, it has a problem with bevels under 35 dgs. I modified mine. I cut the top off the vertical column above the basket and tapped the column to give me a place to set a small thumb screw to clamp the "distance jig" (a momentary use, just to set the arm length). I replaced the set screw Don had for height with the supplied knob screw that was used for the "distance jig" (threads the same). This gave me the ability to take the leg of the VG down to notch 1 1/2 to 3 (depending on the peg setting).

I think you will find this setup allows any shaping of a gouge, within acceptable limits of exactness.

 

[john lucas]

Thanks Jon. Will have to check that jig out once I'm back home and can get to my computer