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Food safe finishes for hot stuff or alcohol??

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Just read your piece on food safe finishes in the AAW newsletter. It answered most questions but I have some more. You mentioned food mixes containing high concentrations of alcohol. I plan to make some mugs which will probably be used for beer, wine and/or mead. I would also like to do some smaller ones which will be for hot liquids, coffee or tea. What would you recommend as finishes for these???

Thanks

Larry Nowicki
 
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Just read your piece on food safe finishes in the AAW newsletter. It answered most questions but I have some more. You mentioned food mixes containing high concentrations of alcohol. I plan to make some mugs which will probably be used for beer, wine and/or mead. I would also like to do some smaller ones which will be for hot liquids, coffee or tea. What would you recommend as finishes for these???

Thanks

Larry Nowicki

Forget the hot stuff, nothing, not even epoxy will hold up to boiling water. As far as alcohol is concerned, no surface finish will prevent the wood from going through seasonal changes or taking on small amounts of liquid. Therefore, you should explore glass, acrylic or Lexan liners for your mug forms. Several outfits sell both glass and plastic wine glass items that are then glued to turned/carved stems.
 
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Got the tool rest almost done. Just got to weld the bottom post. Next is a mandrel and some tools. I got some 1/2" round W1 that needs to turn into some spinning tools. I did break down and get a 1" x 8 tap so I can attach the mandrels to the head stock. You know when you got enough tools....The one after the next one............. I hope to be up and spinning in a couple days.

Larry
 
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Just read your piece on food safe finishes in the AAW newsletter. It answered most questions but I have some more. You mentioned food mixes containing high concentrations of alcohol. I plan to make some mugs which will probably be used for beer, wine and/or mead. I would also like to do some smaller ones which will be for hot liquids, coffee or tea. What would you recommend as finishes for these???

Thanks

Larry Nowicki

Hi Larry!

I have recently been answering several similar questions about the Woodturning Fundamentals answer about food safe finishes. I'll post a portion of that reply which interestingly was on the same topic about finishes useable with an alcoholic beverage:

The issue of what to finish turned vessels with if it is known they are to be used with wine, beer, mead, spirits, etc. comes up repeatedly over the years on various internet forums. Historically, either no finish was used (bare wood), or in some cases wax (e.g. beeswax) was used to line the vessels, and might have to be re-applied periodically. When making wine goblets, beer steins, mazers, etc. I would not advise using a shellac finish (it is too easily damaged or dissolved by alcohol solutions, potentially even with dilute ones). Using polyurethane has been successfully accomplished, as has the use of epoxy to line some drinking vessels (I know of other homebrewers who use epoxy-lined turned wooden beer mugs for drinking beer and mead at SCA festivals). Both of these surface reactive finishes will polymerize to a water- and alcohol-resistant "plastic" film, and should stand-up to most liquids which are meant to be consumed. The major challenge will be to assure that the normal wood movement with humidity (and to some extent temperature) does not create problems with stresses and cracking if a rigid "plastic" liner of applied poly or epoxy coats the inside of the vessel without a corresponding surface treatment on the outside of the vessel (remember the old woodworking adage to finish all sides of the piece similarly). Once the surface finish is polymerized and "done curing", before use I would be certain it was washed thoroughly to remove any unpolymerized epoxy resin or polyurethane. A surface wash with denatured alcohol, followed by a thorough cleaning with soap/detergent and water should prepare it adequately for beverage use.

If you elect to use "no finish", I suggest sticking to hard, dense woods like hard maple or beech, or perhaps even cherry or poplar. I have been told walnut vessels can impart a flavor into the beverage/food, and should be avoided. If no finish is used, expect the inside of the vessel to be stained from red wines, etc., thus adding some 'character' to the vessel.

In any vessel meant for drinking, I also would be careful with using exotics, especially woods known to be toxic, such as cocobolo. I could only imagine what kind of pain and suffering would ensue if the toxic chemicals (dalbergene and related chemicals) were dissolved in an alcoholic beverage and ingested. Alcoholic beverages would have an increased likelihood (compared to water) to dissolve extractive chemical compounds from the woods used, so caution is advised here.


I agree with Mark, that few finishes will stand up to repeated applications of very hot (boiling) water. However if you are preparing your coffee and/or tea correctly as an infusion, the water should be no hotter than 170^F, and you might experiment with epoxy or polyurethane finishes, although there is no guarantee that these finishes will stand-up to such heat. You might also try using no finish at all with woods such as hard maple or beech.

I hope this helps!

Good luck!

Rob
 
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Hi Larry!

I have recently been answering several similar questions about the Woodturning Fundamentals answer about food safe finishes. I'll post a portion of that reply which interestingly was on the same topic about finishes useable with an alcoholic beverage:

The issue of what to finish turned vessels with if it is known they are to be used with wine, beer, mead, spirits, etc. comes up repeatedly over the years on various internet forums. Historically, either no finish was used (bare wood), or in some cases wax (e.g. beeswax) was used to line the vessels, and might have to be re-applied periodically. When making wine goblets, beer steins, mazers, etc. I would not advise using a shellac finish (it is too easily damaged or dissolved by alcohol solutions, potentially even with dilute ones). Using polyurethane has been successfully accomplished, as has the use of epoxy to line some drinking vessels (I know of other homebrewers who use epoxy-lined turned wooden beer mugs for drinking beer and mead at SCA festivals). Both of these surface reactive finishes will polymerize to a water- and alcohol-resistant "plastic" film, and should stand-up to most liquids which are meant to be consumed. The major challenge will be to assure that the normal wood movement with humidity (and to some extent temperature) does not create problems with stresses and cracking if a rigid "plastic" liner of applied poly or epoxy coats the inside of the vessel without a corresponding surface treatment on the outside of the vessel (remember the old woodworking adage to finish all sides of the piece similarly). Once the surface finish is polymerized and "done curing", before use I would be certain it was washed thoroughly to remove any unpolymerized epoxy resin or polyurethane. A surface wash with denatured alcohol, followed by a thorough cleaning with soap/detergent and water should prepare it adequately for beverage use.

If you elect to use "no finish", I suggest sticking to hard, dense woods like hard maple or beech, or perhaps even cherry or poplar. I have been told walnut vessels can impart a flavor into the beverage/food, and should be avoided. If no finish is used, expect the inside of the vessel to be stained from red wines, etc., thus adding some 'character' to the vessel.

In any vessel meant for drinking, I also would be careful with using exotics, especially woods known to be toxic, such as cocobolo. I could only imagine what kind of pain and suffering would ensue if the toxic chemicals (dalbergene and related chemicals) were dissolved in an alcoholic beverage and ingested. Alcoholic beverages would have an increased likelihood (compared to water) to dissolve extractive chemical compounds from the woods used, so caution is advised here.


I agree with Mark, that few finishes will stand up to repeated applications of very hot (boiling) water. However if you are preparing your coffee and/or tea correctly as an infusion, the water should be no hotter than 170^F, and you might experiment with epoxy or polyurethane finishes, although there is no guarantee that these finishes will stand-up to such heat. You might also try using no finish at all with woods such as hard maple or beech.

I hope this helps!

Good luck!

Rob



Thanks. Do you mind if I forward this to our newsletter for the Baltimore area wood turners? Some of our members have had similar questions.

Larry
 
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Thanks. Do you mind if I forward this to our newsletter for the Baltimore area wood turners? Some of our members have had similar questions.

Larry

Feel free to disseminate the information - I don't mind at all!

Turn safely!

Rob
 
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The Next Level

Larry,

If you're willing to go an extra mile or two, look into the field of stabilized wood and resin infusion. The process has been around for a while but is gaining more traction. It involves getting the wood to 0 moisture content, then using high vacuum and infusion of epoxy resin that essentially fills the wood's vascular network to form a resin/wood composite material. Think "fiberglass" but using cellulose instead of glass (or carbon) fibers. There are (or were) several outfits starting up who would "treat" a customer's sample, but as I remember the sizes were pretty limited to stuff like knife handles and pen blanks.

m
 
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Epoxy finishes

Just read your piece on food safe finishes in the AAW newsletter. It answered most questions but I have some more. You mentioned food mixes containing high concentrations of alcohol. I plan to make some mugs which will probably be used for beer, wine and/or mead. I would also like to do some smaller ones which will be for hot liquids, coffee or tea. What would you recommend as finishes for these???

Thanks

Larry Nowicki

Larry:

In answer to your question on alcohol resistant finishes I wrote an article on Finishing with Epoxy resins that shows how to seal porous woods and make useable drinking vessels, beer “glasses†and hot tea cups from wood. I addition to the article I have made a wood insert for my French Press coffee maker, to replace the glass one that I broke, that is lined with epoxy resin. This French press coffee maker has been used since Dec. 2010 and has had boiling water pored into it over 400 times. It is still in daily use. In fact epoxy resins are probably the best finish commonly available because of their excellent solvent resistance.


The article appeared in Woodturning. You can see it at:

http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=1568
 
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Larry:

In answer to your question on alcohol resistant finishes I wrote an article on Finishing with Epoxy resins that shows how to seal porous woods and make useable drinking vessels, beer “glasses†and hot tea cups from wood. I addition to the article I have made a wood insert for my French Press coffee maker, to replace the glass one that I broke, that is lined with epoxy resin. This French press coffee maker has been used since Dec. 2010 and has had boiling water pored into it over 400 times. It is still in daily use. In fact epoxy resins are probably the best finish commonly available because of their excellent solvent resistance.


The article appeared in Woodturning. You can see it at:

http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=1568


Thanks........Great article.
 
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Larry:

In answer to your question on alcohol resistant finishes I wrote an article on Finishing with Epoxy resins that shows how to seal porous woods and make useable drinking vessels, beer “glasses†and hot tea cups from wood. I addition to the article I have made a wood insert for my French Press coffee maker, to replace the glass one that I broke, that is lined with epoxy resin. This French press coffee maker has been used since Dec. 2010 and has had boiling water pored into it over 400 times. It is still in daily use. In fact epoxy resins are probably the best finish commonly available because of their excellent solvent resistance.


The article appeared in Woodturning. You can see it at:

http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=1568

Hey Jim,

Very interesting.

Couple questions:
I read about full-immersion + vacuum + high pressure for making wood/resin composites on small items. Have you tried that on turned pieces?

What's the largest piece you've done? I toyed with the idea of doing bowls for use as sinks, but couldn't figure out how to avoid a huge waste of resin on each piece.

tia

Mark
 
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I recently drank out of wood wine glasses that were a number of years old and frequently used. They had been sealed with several coats of CA. The wine tasted as good from those as glass.
Based on this experience I think I will use CA glue in the inside of anything that may be used for liquids, hot or cold. I also might give the West System a try but that is much more expensive.
 
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wood epoxy composites

Hey Jim,

Very interesting.

Couple questions:
I read about full-immersion + vacuum + high pressure for making wood/resin composites on small items. Have you tried that on turned pieces?

What's the largest piece you've done? I toyed with the idea of doing bowls for use as sinks, but couldn't figure out how to avoid a huge waste of resin on each piece.

tia

Mark

The largest I can do is about 14-15" diameter. The largest I've done is about 12" diameter and was a NIP translucent bowl. I don't immerse the piece, but pull the resin through the wall with vacuum. An article will be published some time this year on the process.
 
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CA and hot liquids

I recently drank out of wood wine glasses that were a number of years old and frequently used. They had been sealed with several coats of CA. The wine tasted as good from those as glass.
Based on this experience I think I will use CA glue in the inside of anything that may be used for liquids, hot or cold. I also might give the West System a try but that is much more expensive.

Barbara: I don't know if CA will hold up to hot liquids as it loses strengh at about 90 C. The west epoxy should work.
 
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