Down and dirty felled log advice

[Scott Barton]

I have access to a felled tree. It has been down for at least a week since I saw it. It is a monster...probably 3' in diameter.

What things do I need to consider to prep this wood?

How should I consider the pith?

How big should I cut (I have a 12x20 lathe)?

What kind of sealant should I apply to them and how? And do I coat just the end grain or any cut face as well as the bark?

Should I stack them in my shop with spacers?

What other things am I missing?

thanks in advance!

 

[Mark Mandell]

Missing

What kind of tree is this beast?

You got 3 men and a boy to help you?

 

[john lucas]

Here's what I do for the short run. I cut them to lengths I can manage by myself because that's what has to happen. I place one end on the ground and then put a tarp over the other end, or put a garbage bag over the end or seal it with Anchorseal. Kind of depends on how many logs and how soon I think I might get to them for further action.
The tarp or garbage bags works best and gives me a few months to try the other alternatives for either long term storage, harvesting into bowl blanks or spindle blanks, or roughing out.
sometimes that drags out 4 or 5 months at which time some of them are starting to split. I cut these through the split and then turn them into bowl blanks or spindle blanks that I seal with parrafin wax for more long term storage. I will of course rough out what I can.
Spitting the wood though the pith seems to help a little but I still lost a lot to cracks even after doing that so I figure if I've got the saw out and spend the time splitting them I might as well saw up some blanks and wax coat them. I still might lose them but it gives me several more months of leeway.

 

[Scott Barton]

What kind of tree is this beast?

You got 3 men and a boy to help you?

i have a chain saw!

 

[Scott Barton]

.
Spitting the wood though the pith seems to help a little but I still lost a lot to cracks even after doing that so I figure if I've got the saw out and spend the time splitting them I might as well saw up some blanks and wax coat them. I still might lose them but it gives me several more months of leeway.

What do you mean by splitting through the pith? Are you saying to cut the cylinder of the trunk/ branch in half at the pith or are you suggesting to cut a kerf or something in the pith zone?

 

[waltben]

I do something close to John, but here's a bit more:

I try to leave the logs as long as I can, because there will always be some splitting and you need the extra length for scrap. Firewood lengths are way too short.

If I don't have an end grain sealer, left over or $5/gal. paint store mistake outdoor latex house paint will work almost as well. Wouldn't use it for smaller pieces, but for first step sealing its good.

I also try to saw larger logs down the middle (halve them) lengthwise through the pith as soon as I can. Don't think it matters much for smaller logs (18" or less), but it does reduce cracking for larger in my experience.

If you want to spalt logs, cover the entire stack completely with a tarp, otherwise only cover the bark. Best would be to have a raised cover to allow air circulation but not rain/snow.

I usually leave things sit stacked on my driveway for about a year before cutting rounds or spindle blanks on my band saw.

 

[KellyDunn]

Scott, for your location it just says K. So a couple things very important if you want advise from folks that can give it. Where do you live? And you were asked what kind of tree has come down. All trees are not equal. Your climate and the tree will help folks give you proper advise. Help us help you.

 

[Scott Barton]

Scott, for your location it just says K. So a couple things very important if you want advise from folks that can give it. Where do you live? And you were asked what kind of tree has come down. All trees are not equal. Your climate and the tree will help folks give you proper advise. Help us help you.

Sorry about that. I didn't notice that it didn't fill out.Kansas City, by the way.

I have no idea what kind of tree it is. The guy mentioned something about walnut, but I really don't know if that was in reference to something else. I won't get to the tree until Saturday, at best.

A bit more info...I probably want to store whatever size and shapes I come up with in my basement with my shop. I can store them in my garage as well, but it is a detached garage and the temperature is not controlled. Finally, I could store them outdoors under my porch, but that is about the only realistic exterior location I can utilize.

I have access to the whole tree, more or less, so I can cherry pick the good parts...whatever that may mean.

So, what I am hearing so far is to halve the log and cut larger than I would want the final piece to be. Maybe I store some pieces indoor and out to experiment with spalting.

I need to get some Anchorseal on them ASAP. Does that mean the end grain, all cut faces, or the whole thing?

Then, what I am kind of hearing is to turn them down to blanks when I can. Do I want to put more Anchorseal on them at this point?

Thanks for all the help!

 

[Mark Mandell]

Simple and easy

Prep of turning blanks is pretty simple. Look at Bill Grumbine's article from our Badger Pond days at http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/log_to_lathe.shtml which you'll find in the archives on Wood Central. Keep in mind that Bill has big lathes so you may wish to scale things back a bit remembering that the maximum your lathe will spin is 12" in diameter. The other method is to hold the wood on log form, as big (long) as you can, and then just whack off lengths as you're able to turn. If you plan on storing the cut lengths and blocks, you should seal them as best you can with a layer of sealing paint and/or wax to retard their drying. Better to keep them outside, but out of the sun (preferably covered) rather than in your shop.

Good luck, have fun!!

 

[Scott Barton]

. Better to keep them outside, but out of the sun (preferably covered) rather than in your shop.

Good luck, have fun!!

Thanks for the link.

Why do you say it is better outside? I was thinking that I would want the wood adjusted to the humidity/temp of my shop rather than bringing a piece in and having to wait 2 weeks to use it.

 

[Fred Belknap]

Scott I usually cover only the end grain of turning blocks. On the areas that has no bark I let the Anchorseal go down a couple of inches. I find that they keep better in an unheated dry area. I just keep ones in the shop that I plan on using real soon. I also cut the blocks length ways, usually twice, about 1or 2 inches each side of the pith (center of the block). Good luck and remember everyone looses a few block now and then.

 

[Scott Barton]

Good luck and remember everyone looses a few block now and then.

Ha! If I get one block, I'm the big winner. First, there is no cost. Second, I am gaining a ton of knowledge (and then the experience) of prepping them so I am ready for the next one that comes along!

 

[hockenbery]

One thing I do with surplus of good wood is cut spindle blanks usually with a bandsaw.
I cut squares of 1, 2, 3, and maybe 4". And 3 feet long. Put a little anchor seal on the ends and sticker them on a shelf for a year or so.
3x3 works well for ornament balls and the 2x2 for ornament finials. Remember the dried dimensions will be less so a 3x3 will produce a ball about 2.5 in diameter when dried. 1x1 for pen blanks. the 4x4 for boxes..

Bowls and HF I like to turn before the wood dries.

Cutting wood on the ground requires a little strategy. Dirt dulls the chainsaw. I usually carry two sharp chains to put on.
I try to plan my cutting so that I avoid the dirt as long as I can. Then Cut the dirty wood as long as the chains still cutting.

Have fun
Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

Thanks for the link.

Why do you say it is better outside? I was thinking that I would want the wood adjusted to the humidity/temp of my shop rather than bringing a piece in and having to wait 2 weeks to use it.

For bowls, I much prefer turning nice and wet, fresh from the log. Rough-turn wet, then seal and wrap and allow to dry for 6 months or so in the back corner of the shop. Haul'em out and see what you've got, then re-turn to round and finish. Second is finish turn the green/wet to final shape, wrap and let dry, and go with the shape you get. Either way, they're going oval on you. Try to dry 5-6" thick blocks, you'll be waiting 5-6 years before they're dry, and you'll likely have a pile of firewood because of the cracks and checks.

Equalizing moisture content is flatwood/lumber thinking. A turner's approach to wood is different. You're starting out; welcome to the vortex!

 

[MichaelMouse]

Outside is a good choice this time of year, but don't expect any spalting, because you haven't the temperature. Just protect from direct sun and you'll be able to turn what you want,when you want. It'll be wet, so defend your shop against thrown water. Recent thread about that here. Can be as simple as covering what's close with cardboard. If frozen, you'll want to keep some warm water to dip your off hand in periodically.

Rough turn and put the stuff in an unheated, but sheltered place until heating season is over. Too dry in most heated homes right now to leave them bare. Might even be too dry for anchorseal, which I quit because it kept things too damp in my summer basement.

Cutting information here is pretty good. http://www.customwooddesign.com/turninggreenwood-1.html

Curing information all over. Don't leave your piece too thick or too straight-walled and you're half way to success. The rest is evaporation.

 

[Thomas Stegall]

This time of year with the heat on, inside will be much dryer. If you want the wood to be preserved with out checks you want it to dry slowly. Inside will dry air will speed up the process. You seal the endgrain because it looses moisture the quickest, uneven drying is what causes checks. I would suggest keeping it in log form as much as possible. The larger the piece the slower the drying will be for the whole thing. Spliting at the pith depends on what type of turning you do. I turn alot of end grain orientation pieces so the pith is in my piece. Most turners avoid this, but depending on the wood its not necessary. Since you have a small lathe, a tree that size will keep you in wood for a year or two if you preserve and dry the wood correctly.

 

[Scott Barton]

Ok, so it sounds like my unheated detached garage is a good spot to store them as I don't really have much of an exterior option, but I will try that too.


"Equalizing moisture content is flatwood/lumber thinking. A turner's approach to wood is different."

I think this is what I was sensing but I really needed someone to actually tell me. I understand and appreciate the beauty of how a bowl will distort as it dries, i guess I just had the thought of tempering the wood to the shop engrained in my head that I didn't question it.

So, along those lines, what other flat wood thinking things should I be setting aside?

Also, it was mentioned to prep my shop. I was thinking of putting another layer of wax on the bed. Are there other or better precautions? Should I treat my tools with something?

And thanks to everyone for responding. This has been extremely helpful.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Reaching equilibrium with its environment is what wood will do in spite of the shape it's in. Makes it a case of wood is wood, so any documentation about the nature and behavior of wood is good. Some of the best at http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id=100&header_id=p Though a read of chapters three and four should suffice to keep you from making things tough on yourself through misinformation.

Only one "layer" of wax resides on anything, because the applications blend, but ensuring a continuous cover is good. Be sure to wipe after wet regardless. if you wipe with some paste wax and a scrubbie, should take care of most things. Protect other shop assets as well. Acid curls that stick to you can fall on a jointer or other cast iron and make an ugly mark real fast, so look at all such surfaces. Especially your bandsaw.

Use the inevitable contraction of the wood as an indicator of when your turning is approaching equilibrium, and give it the indoor treatment just as you would with otherwise shaped wood to minimize movement in the final processing. When it weighs nearly the same on successive weekends, turn for round and finish it. Thin pieces where you don't mind distortion can be left in the shop, though out of particularly dry air like downwind of heating ducts for a week, final sanded, and finished.

 

[robo hippy]

Scott,
There is an AAW chapter in KC. Contact them, and get a few people to help. sounds like there is more wood than you will be able to handle. You will get a lot of advice, and having extra hands is always good.

robo hippy

 

[rparson]

In the link on MM's post #15 I would particularly pay attention to the "hard way" and the "easy way", photos 3 and 4. Split through per photo #4 and be sure to remove the pith. If you don't remove the pith completely the wood will crack. It also goes without saying but observe all chainsaw safety precautions. The wood isn't free, it can be quite expensive if you hurt yourself.

Storing in the unheated garage means the wood won't dry out as fast. That's what you care about vs. bringing it to shop temperature.

The advice about enlisting other folks is a great one!

One last thought ( of many possible suggestions) is to BE SUREwhen you mount a blank of green wood on your lathe that you turn the lathe speed down or off! Water in wood is heavy, the blank may look perfectly balanced but it is not. Start the lathe from a very slow speed and then turn it up only after you see how unbalanced the blank is.

I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but this last point is important.

Hope this adds a bit.

Good luck!

Bob

 

[Scott Barton]

I'm a chicken. I generally start anything larger than a pen blank pretty dang slow. That first whizzing sound larger pieces make when you turn on the lathe never ceases to scare the snot out of me.

 

[Mark Mandell]

. . . never ceases to scare the snot out of me.

Decongestants are good. Opening your sinus cavities for public inspection* is a rather Bad Idea.



PS:* Wear a good face shield and keep tissues handy.

 

[Wes Head]

A three foot tree...better you than me. I have a herniated disk from such.

There is no such thing as free wood. It is going to cost you one way or another.

I look at an offer for a tree as a blessing and a curse. Getting a tree is like slaughtering a hog- after you kill it you have to butcher it, cure the ham, slab the bacon, make the sausage, etc. etc if you don't want your work to go to waste. Roughing out bowls all day long will wear you out more than you would think.

All the methods that have been suggested are good, and I would add that turners overestimate how well you can save wood. Even with care, wood is best used in a few months for check-free work.

I have learned after letting many trees go to firewood not to get more than I will turn in a reasonable time. Usually this is only a piece or two and leave the rest for others.

Freshly felled wood is worth making a special effort to use wet- thin walled warpy bowls are like a seasonal treat for when the wood is in season for a short time

Less freshly felled trees, especially if they have big heart checks that limit their use for bowls, are useful for long grain use- I usually rip the logs along the checks into quarters and then knock the corners off, about 2 feet long. Even though these will seemingly dry, it is best to consider it as wet wood and expect movement.

 

[Dick Sowa]

Plenty of good advice so far...all of which is good to consider. One item that was mentioned, had to do with making your blanks longer than you might think, to allow for removal of some checking when you get around to turning them. The question is really how much longer do you make them?

When I buck up logs that are, say, 14" dia, I will cut my logs about 18" long. That gives me about 2" of possible waste on the ends. As long as you completely get rid of the pith...and an inch or two on either side, then 4" longer than the log is wide, should be plenty.

A bonus for removing a wide section surrounding the pith, is that you are left with a slab that (once the central pith is removed) is quarter sawn lumber.

 

[Scott Barton]

Ok, so I spent yesterday whacking at these giant trees. I came up with a couple more questions.

First... When I got up there, I found a tree that had obviously fallen, perhaps from a storm. This one was about 34" in diameter. The portion sticking out of the ground was punky and clearly rotted. It must have been down for quite a while. All of the wood what worthless.

Out of curiosity, I went about 15' from the highest "splintering" where the first branching started. The limb I cut off was about 20"-24" wide. I pulled out my moisture meter and it read 28+%.

So, with all of that said, I am slightly confused. Everywhere I have read, people say you have to get on that green wood ASAP after it has been cut down. I know that this thing has been down for over a month and more likely, several months, but the wood is great. Sure, I can't harvest anything near the roots, but I'm going to get a giant amount of wood out of this tree, and there are 3-4 more up there at this size.

So, long story short, am I misunderstanding what the rush is?

Second question...
I could only get about 5-6' of this thing cut into manageable bits. There is probably another 20', if not more of this log at around 20+" diameter, obviously more than I can do in a day.

So, if I assume some waste, could I extend the length of time I could continue to harvest piece by applying Anchorseal directly to the log? Is this crazy talk or a decent idea?

Thanks everyone for the advice. It really helped. By planning around the pith, I think I was able to harvest some really great chucks. I think the smallest thing I got was a 10x10 burl.

thanks for the help!

 

[Thomas Stegall]

Scott,

To answer your question about "what's the rush" with a felled tree. This time of year tends to be higher humidity and lower temps in many places in the U.S. which affords you more time. However, for much of the year, the tree will loose moisture quickly because of evaporation, which can be excellerated by wind, warm temperatures. And the rapid changes of humidity and temps can cause a tree to loose and absorb moisture rapidly. The result is that splitting can begin and then the tree may get rained on and later look as if it hasn't started to split. Only after you take the wood home will you discover that no matter what you do it splits on you. The truth is that the splitting has already happened you just didn't know it when you brought it home and therefore its impossible to avoid. If the log is cut cleanly with a relatively smooth surface you can see the tree with anchorseal.

 

[Dale Canapini]

Scott,
Something to consider when I have worked on trees that are more than I can cut up in a day i seal the end of the log I am working on to slow the moisture loss until I can get back to it.

 

[mrGeeze]

Relax
Don't worry.

Resist the temptation to expend your energy cutting wood to be used later. The truth is wood is very easy to find. Mother nature just keeps making more.

Working around trees with chain saws is not just dangerous & noisy, it will wear your a$s out.

I assume you want to make bowls.
Focus your energy on roughing out bowls. Cut as many as you possibly can while the wood is wet. Keep it simple. Bring the largest piece of the log you can practically move as close to the lathe as possible. Cut off the checked part to good wood. Forget about anchorseal. You don't need it. Crosscut a piece however long you want (say 10-12") Slice through the pith & you have two bowl blanks. If you have a bandsaw great. cut the 1/2 into a circle. If not "round" the corners with a chain saw.

Chuck it up & ride the bevel. Cutting wet wood is the most fun you'll have as a turner. Make sure you get out the pith when you are making the rough out.
Its easy & a blast.

Lather rinse & repeat until tired.

In a short time you'll be able to knock out 3-5 rough outs per hour with this method. More if you have a band saw and are working smaller (6-8") bowls.

I wrap the rough out in 2 pieces of newspaper and leave it in my shop for a 4-8 weeks. Then I unwrap them & leave them at least 6 months more. Sometimes they sit for years.

Very few of my bowls ever split.

 

[Brad Vietje]

Check Out Your Local Chapter

Hey Scott,

I'm jumping in a little late, but Mark's (?) advice to seek out your local AAW chapter is the key to your success. You will learn more in a few hours at a meeting than you will probably gather here in a month. Most chapters have live turning demo's at each meeting, and you will learn so many little details that would take far too many words here.

Notice the tools used, and how they are ground. Notice how they are presented to the wood. What works best, and worst. Notice the sounds -- a clean cut has a certain sound, and with a little experience, you'll be able to tell from the back of the room what's going on by the sound. If there is an opportunity to try a hand with supervision, give it a go. If you don't want to try things in front of a group, ask if you can stay for a spell after the meeting, and try it when there's less anxiety involved.

If you work slowly, start small. If you cut a thick slab (2" - 3" thick) out of the middle of a tree trunk that contains the pith running down the middle, you'll have two "half-logs" (a.k.a. billets) for bowls. Then cut a number of square section pieces from your slab on either side of the pith, and throw away the center part with the pith running through it -- that part will certainly crack. These square sections can be cut to any length you like for spindle turning practice between centers.

I'd say get used to how your tools work, practice various cuts, and also sharpening while spinning 6"-8" long 2x2 squares between centers. Get familiar with the lathe, cutting from square to round, and achieving a desired shape with your gouges. You can seal the big chunks for bowl work when you are ready. Ideally, you'd turn a few bowls with a mentor from the turning club. Ask for advice and help, and even ask if any experienced bowl turners would be willing to stop by and give you some advice. In my local club, you'd get a number of offers to help you learn just by asking.

Good luck, and safe spinning,

Brad Vietje
Newbury, VT
BTW: did you figure out what the tree is? Photos?

 

[Scott Barton]

Thanks again for all of the advice. The mild winter has given me some nice opportunities to harvest some wood which is stacked and stickered in my garage.

So, enough of that chainsaw business unless there is another terribly awesome day that working outside is irresistible.

I know it is hard to tell how much experience a fella might have when they first pop on here asking questions, so I really appreciate the range of advice. While still a rookie, I have turned enough to feel comfortable with my tools and lathe. I've been to my local turning club...only schedule prevents me from going frequently. I have a mentor (who is also on these forums, I believe). He is a great teacher and I appreciate the time and effort.

I don't know 100% what wood I have been harvesting, but I would make a sizable bet it is cherry. When I first harvested the wood, I felt it might be cherry, but I'm not pro and the rough cut of the chainsaw didn't help. I turned a green bowl and feel pretty confident that it is cherry. The closed grain and reddish hue are very familiar.

Like I said, I really appreciate the help. My second harvesting trip was exponentially more efficient than my first...in part due to the actual experience of doing it, and second because of all the good advice.

Now on to making something of all this wood!!

 

[Gretch Flo]

cherry

Cherry usually has a nice sweet odor when cutting. The shavings placed in an open plastic bag emitted the odor for about a week when it was turned greenish. Gretch

 

[Thomas Stegall]

I think the odor emitted depends on soil composition and which variety of cherry it is. I have turned green pieces of wild cherry hollow forms that smelled like manure when turning them.

 

[John Giem]

This thread is interesting reading. I have a couple of related side comments:
1. Earlier, you mentioned walnut but later identified it as cherry. The concern here is that some woods like walnut are natural herbicides. Walnut much will kill most plants is is around. We have a lot of horses in this area, Colorado, and the owners like to use wood shavings in their horse lots. If walnut shavings get into a horse lot, I'm told that it will ruin the horse hoves. The message is becareful with your shavings, know what they are and be sure they are used/disposed of responsibly.
2. The advise about getting involved with a local club is good. Also, there are comments about not being able to utilize the wood before it self converts into firewoodl. Our club, the Rocky Mountian Woodturners, recognized this problem. Also, many of our members do not have the equipement to take on a tree or are physically unable. Then the newbees don't know how to get enough wood to get started. We started a Wood Bank for our club. Using all volunteers we collect downed trees, take to a central wood lot (my place) and then members can come and get what they need. I have seen large trees disappear in a matter of a few days. We also cut blanks from the wood and take to meetings and hold a raffle. The proceeds support the Wood Bank expenses and the Library.
We have also exhanged wood with other clubs. They have access to species of trees we don't have and vice versa. And yes, we have plenty of firewood for the heating season. The Wood Bank purchases Sealer by the barrel and then distrubutes it to members at cost. Presently, it is running $11.00 per gallon.

If any of you are interested in our Wood Bank, let me know.

John Giem

 

[Scott Barton]

It is DEFINITELY not walnut. I am fairly confident in may ability to tell cherry from walnut... well, I am before a couple of cocktails. My walnut comment came before I cut into it.

Giving a couple of pieces to the guild is good idea. I just might do that!

 

[MichaelMouse]

Taste it. Cherry tastes like Smith Bros. Walnut is astringent and makes you want to spit.

Bark is an instant way to differentiate cherry from walnut. Cherry has flakes, walnut has fissures.

Cherry leaves/bark/sapwood contains a lot of hydrocyanic acid. Ferments to an almond smell, but there's not enough cyanide to kill you. Don't plant around livestock, they can sicken or die from nibbling.

 

[John Giem]

Cherry leaves/bark/sapwood contains a lot of hydrocyanic acid. Ferments to an almond smell, but there's not enough cyanide to kill you. Don't plant around livestock, they can sicken or die from nibbling.

This is interesting. I had heard that walnut is a natural herbicide and is bad to have around livestock. Are there other domestic woods used in woodturning that are or can be detrimental to livestock?

 

[MichaelMouse]

Roots/husks of walnut have a good dose of a natural herbicide - juglone. The rap with walnut shavings is not to use as horse bedding, as it can cause them to founder. http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/hortcult/fruits/blkwalnt.htm

Not that cherry's a good choice in the pasture. http://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/cherry.html