Vacuum Sealing Finishes?

[Owen Lowe]

My finishes of choice are either a self-mixed varnish/oil/solvent or one of the Tried & True products. I use very small quantities at a time (measure by teaspoons) from the source containers and find that the varnishes begin to polymerize before the can is even half empty. I purchase the smallest cans available but at $15-$20 a can it's frustrating. I'm thinking I want to remove the oxygen from the container to hold off the polymerization but don't want to go the Bloxygen route. Maybe this is a "duh" question that could go either way...

Has anyone transferred the finish to Ball jars and used the vacuum accessory from Foodsaver to pull out the air in the container and seal it after each use? I've got a vacuum pump already and the Foodsaver accessory and hose is about the cost of one bottle of Bloxygen.

Anyone try it and have it work or not work?

 

[Bill Boehme]

I doubt that oxygen alone is your problem and believe that the product will eventually go bad despite the absence of oxygen. I also suspect that solvents gradually "leak" out of the container no matter how well the lid seems to fit.

I have had full never-opened cans of varnish go bad when I forgot about them at the back of a shelf.

 

[Ed Heuslein]

Owen, I have two methods that will work. First, I have a good friend (club's president) who gets a hand vacumn pump from the "kitchen" store. It comes with a stopper that fits the top of a beer bottle. Transfer the finish to the beer bottle and hand vacumn the air out. I also have this system and it works very well. I have some varnish that I've had a couple years in a beer bottle and is still as good as new.
Second is to use one of the boxes that some wines come in. Inside the box is a bladder. Remove the spigot, clean the bladder, dry well, and pour in your finish. Reinstall the spigot, open it up with the bladder held so the spigot is at the top. Carefully remove all air (just push down on the top 'till the finish is up to the top) and close the spigot. Put it back in the box, label and date it and you're good to go. This is how I keep my Waterlox like new. I have about a half cup left in my box now which is three years old and as good as new. As many know, the Waterlox if famous for jelling quite rapidly after opening.

 

[Gretch Flo]

boxed wine bladders

.
Second is to use one of the boxes that some wines come in. Inside the box is a bladder. Remove the spigot, clean the bladder, dry well, and pour in your finish. Reinstall the spigot, open it up with the bladder held so the spigot is at the top. Carefully remove all air (just push down on the top 'till the finish is up to the top) and close the spigot. Put it back in the box, label and date it and you're good to go.

And here I have been throwing them on the trash!!!!!!! Thanks for the tip. Now if I just don't get them confused and drink the wrong stuff!!!Gretch

 

[MichaelMouse]

Squeeze bottles, vacuums like my fathers day wine bottle vacuum, marbles to reduce the overhead air pocket are all good things, as is replacement by heavier-than-air inert gas. There is only one that is fool proof, as I see it. Lids and seals can leak slowly, rendering the vacuum useless, and reducing the effectiveness of the inert replacement, so marbles is my answer. That, and avoiding the false economy of larger sizes.

Most chemical reactions are slower in the cool, so don't let the sun get to them.

 

[john wallace]

And here I have been throwing them on the trash!!!!!!! Thanks for the tip. Now if I just don't get them confused and drink the wrong stuff!!!Gretch

I used a bleach bottle to store some mixed staining solution and left in the laundry sink. Wife poured some into washing machine thinking it was bleach. It only took me 3 hours to clean the washing machine out. She still reminds me of this when I recycle bottles.

 

[Jim Keenan]

One of our members uses propane, unlit of course, from his torch. Blows it into the container and since it is heavier than air it displaces the air and then he quickly reseals the container. He show us a container of tung oil over three years old and it was still viable.

 

[Owen Lowe]

Lids and seals can leak slowly, rendering the vacuum useless...

I figured that since the Ball/Mason jars keep food items properly sealed by vacuum for many years it would work for finishes too. Do you have experience otherwise?

Thanks to all who have responded -- many ideas to think about.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Mason jars can have seal failure. But, as the discussion seemed to center about plastic and especially squeezable plastic, the warning applies there. They tend to have harder, non contour-conforming seals. The mason jars are heated to soften and form the best seal in the process of canning.

I would not put anything in glass if there were a nearly non-breakable container available. Marbles go in plastic or tin.

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

I've had good results using the accordion bottles that LV sells. Once you get them scrunched down as far as they will go, though, all bets are off.

 

[John Giem]

Owen, I have two methods that will work. First, I have a good friend (club's president) who gets a hand vacumn pump from the "kitchen" store. It comes with a stopper that fits the top of a beer bottle. Transfer the finish to the beer bottle and hand vacumn the air out. I also have this system and it works very well. I have some varnish that I've had a couple years in a beer bottle and is still as good as new.

Ed, liquids will evaporate faster in a vacuum than at 'normal' pressures. Have you seen any problems with the finishes getting thicker after using vacuum storage?

John Giem

 

[MichaelMouse]

Ed, liquids will evaporate faster in a vacuum than at 'normal' pressures. Have you seen any problems with the finishes getting thicker after using vacuum storage?

John Giem

Where would it go if the lid's tight?

 

[Owen Lowe]

Where would it go if the lid's tight?

I hadn't thought about any type of evaporation within a vacuum - I suppose it's possible since I just read it in print above ^! (It is possible, no?)

If it is possible, I assume the evaporation would stop once the space reaches saturation. With the vacuum, the benefit would be that little oxygen would be available to continue the polymerization process to the point of ruining the finish.

 

[John Giem]

Where would it go if the lid's tight?

In theory, the solvents in the finish can be evacuated during the process of creating the vacuum. I'm guessing that only a light vacuum is being used. A hard vacuum could pull all of the solvents out.

John Giem

 

[MichaelMouse]

If it is possible, I assume the evaporation would stop once the space reaches saturation.

Yep. The dewpoint, as it were.

Dalton and Raoult's laws apply to the volatiles in the solvent.

 

[Wes Head]

I use small water bottles (like for AquaFina)- the thinner the plastic the better. You can squeeze one down to about a third of its original volume and then you can find a smaller container.Probably not a good long term solutions as O2 will probably diffuse through but good enough to keep Waterlox for a few weeks when you're doing daily coats.

I have had some Waterlox survive more than five years in small glass mason jars, but that was pure luck. Baby food jars were also handy back when I had a steady supply of them (looong ago).

 

[Owen Lowe]

Hmmm. Would you look at that!

I just opened a new pint can of Behlen's Rockhard Varnish and transferred it to a wide-mouth Ball jar. (I wanted to try out the Food Saver vacuum fixture for these jars.) I began to pull a vacuum and what should appear before my eyes but thousands of 1mm bubbles coming out of the apparently clear solution. I considered that perhaps I had shaken the can, but no, it was clear amber (not cloudy like a shaken finish) when I poured it in. (Essentially, I pulled the can from the shelf, opened it, and poured it smoothly into the jar.)

In this thread John Giem had mentioned that the solvents could be pulled out in a hard vacuum. Hard to say what the bubbles were - hopefully they were merely entrapped regular old air bubbles.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Don't tell the alcohol believers, but differential vapor pressure can cause one component to "boil" while the other remains behind. It's the principle of differential distillation.

Guess the naphtha boils lower than the resin.

 

[Bill Boehme]

When I used to go backpacking in the mountains, the meals that we tried to cook by boiling in water at high altitude would take forever to get done because the water was boiling at something like 195°F. If you lower the atmospheric pressure enough the water would boil at room temperature or even just above the freezing point at about 73,000 feet pressure altitude.

 

[Ian Thorn]

I keep mine in a cool part of the wshop and they keep for yrs try adding just a little of the thining agent for your product let it lay on top dont mix in this can allso work

 

[Mark Mandell]

Got An Old Frig?

The small amount of reactive oil finishes I use anymore (Waterlox, oil-poly, Watco) don't take up much room in the back of the beer frig. They don't gel either. Pour out what you need in a small bowl, put the rest back. 3yr. old Waterlox is just fine.

 

[Owen Lowe]

The small amount of reactive oil finishes I use anymore (Waterlox, oil-poly, Watco) don't take up much room in the back of the beer frig. They don't gel either. Pour out what you need in a small bowl, put the rest back. 3yr. old Waterlox is just fine.

There's Irish in my family a few generations back (Shinn) and I just can't abide with throwing out a 1/2 used pint can of $20 varnish! I seem to get almost 2 years from them but still...

My method is to spoon out a couple of teaspoons into my "varnishing" bowl, mix in my other secret ingredients, and dip my rag from there. In other words, the can isn't open very long. I've tried pouring some thinner into the stock can but that doesn't seem to extend the life much.

After I vacuum sealed this batch, I dated the top. I'll continue the vacuum sealing whenever I close it back up. Hopefully, this time, I'll be able to use the entire bit of varnish I paid for!

 

[MichaelMouse]

My method is to spoon out a couple of teaspoons into my "varnishing" bowl, mix in my other secret ingredients, and dip my rag from there. In other words, the can isn't open very long. I've tried pouring some thinner into the stock can but that doesn't seem to extend the life much.

Why should it? The thinner has nothing to do with (nor does it interfere with) the cross-linking process by which the varnish cures. Oxygen is the thing. That, and warmth. Which is why you can slow that chemical reaction by keeping things cool.

 

[Owen Lowe]

Why should it? The thinner has nothing to do with (nor does it interfere with) the cross-linking process by which the varnish cures. Oxygen is the thing. That, and warmth. Which is why you can slow that chemical reaction by keeping things cool.

As has been mentioned (wive's tale?) - pouring solvent as a top layer over the finish will/can/may extend the shelf life of the material. I suppose the reasoning is that the thinner separates the finish from the oxygen at the top of the container.

 

[MichaelMouse]

As has been mentioned (wive's tale?) - pouring solvent as a top layer over the finish will/can/may extend the shelf life of the material. I suppose the reasoning is that the thinner separates the finish from the oxygen at the top of the container.

Sorry, unless you're adding solvent over a skin of cured film, it's going to mix. It will happen slowly with no agitation (sorry, alcohol soakers), but eventually molecular motion will do for it. Keeping it cool will slow the molecular bounce.

If you keep topping off the container with solvent, you'll protect from oxidation, but you're going to need a LOT of coats to build a finish!

 

[Bart Leetch]

What about a layer of saran wrap rright on top of the finish then close the can up.

 

[Owen Lowe]

What about a layer of saran wrap rright on top of the finish then close the can up.

I don't recall if I tried that one. Seems to me though it would sink a bit or else become a mess to deal with. As I mentioned earlier, I'm trying out the vacuum sealing method and will get back to everyone in a year or two!

 

[Owen Lowe]

As I mentioned earlier, I'm trying out the vacuum sealing method and will get back to everyone in a year or two!

The new thread on Chestnut Finishing Oil (http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?11568-Chestnut-Finishing-Oil) got me to thinking about this thread I had started in 2012.

The result of hard vacuum sealing the Behlen’s varnish is that it lasted a full 3 years. In practice, I opened the seal to remove varnish and resealed it when finished for that session. It started to form a skin after 2.5 years, which I’d puncture to get to the liquid varnish. By June of this year even the liquid portion had taken on a partially polymerized stringy quaility.

I feel I got a little more than an extra year by following this process. Instead of focusing on varnish storage, another consideration is that I’m not turning nearly enough stuff to use up the varnish and merely need to quit the full-time job!

 

[Ron Solfest]

Surprised that no one has mentioned stoplossbags.com yet on this thread. I purchased a few of them 6months ago and am very happy with results so far. No relationship, just a happy customer.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Surprised that no one has mentioned stoplossbags.com yet on this thread. I purchased a few of them 6months ago and am very happy with results so far. No relationship, just a happy customer.

They were mentioned in another thread recently.