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New Steel

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Yesterday I had the opportunity to test one of Doug Thompson's new 15V 5/8 bowl gouges. I started and finished an ash bowl with the tool straight from the package, I could have taken the finish cut inside without sharpening but I wanted to see how it sharpened. Using the white wheels on a slow speed Woodcraft grinder I had no trouble putting a new edge on it. It definitely is harder than the 10V but I was still able to use the white stone. If your looking for more cutting time between sharpening you might want to try this one.
Bill
 
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Bill,

Why are you calling this "new" steel? I just recently bought a 15V 1/2" oval bowl gouge from Glaser HiTec and I understand that Jerry Glaser has been offering this steel since 1980. ??
 

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Bill,

Why are you calling this "new" steel? I just recently bought a 15V 1/2" oval bowl gouge from Glaser HiTec and I understand that Jerry Glaser has been offering this steel since 1980. ??

I think it is new to Bill and new to Doug. Doug has traditionally worked in V10 and triple cryo tempered
 

john lucas

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That is true. Doug has made some 15V tools but the price of the metal was so high he felt like he couldn't sell them. Times have changed of course and the price of high end tools can justify this steel. I don't speak for Doug just passing on parts of a conversation we had not too long after he started selling tools.
 
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CPM 10V and CPM 15V History

CPM 10V(tm) (not V10!!) was patented and introduced to the U.S. market in 1979-1980 and Jerry Glaser shortly thereafter began using it in his turning tools. He always utilized the metallurgically sound heat treating practices recommended to him by Crucible technology personnel as well as published Crucible data sheets. The grade became a world-wide standard for use in coldwork tooling applications such as blanking and stamping of highly abrasive materials such as automotive gasket materials, high silicon electrical steels, baby diapers (Pampers), and cold reduction sheet mill rolls. When the Crucible patent expired, in the late 90's, mills around the world began producing knock-offs of it as A11. It is truly an industry standard.

CPM 15V(tm) (not V15!!) was patented and introduced to the U.S. market in 1989-1990 and, again, Jerry Glaser adapted it to his turning tools. Glaser was always a proponent of advanced grades and understood their benefits. The patents are still in effect and CPM 15V is melted, atomized, hot isostatically pressed, forged, and rolled in Syracuse by Crucible Industries, LLC.

The recommended heat treatment for both CPM 10V and CPM 15V involves a high temperature austenitizing treatment followed by rapid cooling and triple tempering with a cryogenic treatment between the first and second tempers. This cryogenic treatment is not to be confused with other "cryo" or "kryo" treatments where the tools are dipped in liquid nitrogen following heat treatment. Crucible Research has never identified any metallurgically explainable significance to these post heat treatment cryogenic treatments for highly alloyed, properly heat treated steels.

End of history lesson:)

Jerry Wright
V. P. Technology (retired)
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This cryogenic treatment is not to be confused with other "cryo" or "kryo" treatments where the tools are dipped in liquid nitrogen following heat treatment. Crucible Research has never identified any metallurgically explainable significance to these post heat treatment cryogenic treatments for highly alloyed, properly heat treated steels.

But, Jerry, if you're marketing the product to people who don't know any better, it sounds Way Cool to be able to use a 3-syllable word to describe your tool, especially if your target demographic is people conditioned to look for the Next Big Thing. :D:D

A decade ago I bought two 2060 bowl gauges. Once I conditioned myself to step over to the grinder, fitted with a 120 grit wheel, and take 30 seconds to just "refresh" the edges more often than "they" said I needed to, my cut quality improved significantly.

M

PS Should mention that the difference in cost has "probably" paid for itself as both tools have been "refreshed" a large number of times in that decade, but I still have most of what I originally bought sticking out of the handles. I also have a original 7/8" red-handled A11 Glazier that I almost never use because the other tools will do everything I need/want to do.
 
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Doug,

Are you saying patents are a bad thing? You and I have friends who've put more than a little sweat equity into developing a tool. Would they have put in that effort to bring something new to the marketplace without some protection from rip-offs? How will you feel if some enterprising gent in Nanking or Ningbo decides to bring turning tools identical to yours to the US market for 2/3 of your price?
 

odie

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But, Jerry, if you're marketing the product to people who don't know any better, it sounds Way Cool to be able to use a 3-syllable word to describe your tool, especially if your target demographic is people conditioned to look for the Next Big Thing. :D:D

A decade ago I bought two 2060 bowl gauges. Once I conditioned myself to step over to the grinder, fitted with a 120 grit wheel, and take 30 seconds to just "refresh" the edges more often than "they" said I needed to, my cut quality improved significantly.

M

Mark......

You are making a point that is well worth making. Learn to true up an edge, and once you do it without thinking about it, the specialized steels just don't seem to have the appeal they once did. It seems to me that the newer turners spend tons of money and effort on specialized steel, and carbide tools.......when they probably wouldn't, if they knew how quick and easy it is to true up an edge. Sooner or later......they will "get it"!

I don't do it exactly the same as Mark, but I have no doubts he has learned his own best methods of accomplishing virtually the same thing. Instead of returning to a 120gt grinding wheel, I am able to true up an edge multiple times with a 600gt diamond hone + slipstone. Most of the time, I'll bet I can do this in less than 60 seconds! When re-honing has substantially altered the original hollow grind, I return to the grinder for a fresh basic grind. For this, I use the Norton 80gt SG wheel.

Like you, I have a couple of those 2060 steel tools.....a gouge and a scraper. Will they hold an edge longer?......sure they will! This is the point, and they do what they are advertised to do. The thing to consider is the more sharpening/honing becomes second nature, the less important a few more minutes of cutting becomes. For me.........I think I'll stick with plain Jane M2 steel and the more common and inexpensive manufacturers.

Disclaimer: As usual, just because I do things a certain way to accomplish a particular end result......this is not to suggest my way is the best way for everyone.......or, anyone but myself, for that matter! I have evolved to my methods because they are the best game plan I have arrived at........but, the more times I think I've "arrived", it's just one more time I will have been mistaken! Ha, ha! :D



ooc
 
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Lee Trevino was not a woodturner but...

Lee Trevino used to make a living challenging wealthy club golfers to a match where he would use only a quart glass Coke bottle as a golf club. However on the pro tour he used the best available professionally made clubs.
Moral of the story is that skilled turners have turned with a screw driver, an axe, or even high carbon steel:) However, many prefer to incorporate the best available tools, lathes, chucks, and woods into their quest for the perfect turning.

Different strokes...

Jerry
 

odie

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Lee Trevino used to make a living challenging wealthy club golfers to a match where he would use only a quart glass Coke bottle as a golf club. However on the pro tour he used the best available professionally made clubs.
Moral of the story is that skilled turners have turned with a screw driver, an axe, or even high carbon steel:) However, many prefer to incorporate the best available tools, lathes, chucks, and woods into their quest for the perfect turning.

Different strokes...

Jerry

Sounds good, but not the best analogy, Jerry.......

When I turn, I always do my best. The only thing I require from my tools is they be sharp. There is nobody in my shop, but me.......so, I have nothing to prove, and nobody I can impress with Coke bottles........;)

The "plain Jane" M2 steel will produce as keen an edge, and is no less sharp than the more expensive steels.

This is the bottom line.

ooc
 
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The "plain Jane" M2 steel will produce as keen an edge, and is no less sharp than the more expensive steels.

ooc

Odie - the same is true of High C tool steel vs M2. It is a matter of edge retention. Not all of us are "wunderkinds" on the grinder and better steels can be maintained longer with a hone. Obviously I am a materials oriented guy, but I don't like to see people not using the best OR wasting money on alloys unnecessarily. It is economical in my mind to move past M2 to M4 or 10V.

Oops, I am supposed to be turning - it is Father's Day!!

Jerry
 
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Doug,

Are you saying patents are a bad thing? You and I have friends who've put more than a little sweat equity into developing a tool. Would they have put in that effort to bring something new to the marketplace without some protection from rip-offs? How will you feel if some enterprising gent in Nanking or Ningbo decides to bring turning tools identical to yours to the US market for 2/3 of your price?

Not at all but when it's gone the price will drop by $10
 
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Sounds good, but not the best analogy, Jerry.......

When I turn, I always do my best. The only thing I require from my tools is they be sharp. There is nobody in my shop, but me.......so, I have nothing to prove, and nobody I can impress with Coke bottles........;)

The "plain Jane" M2 steel will produce as keen an edge, and is no less sharp than the more expensive steels.

This is the bottom line.

ooc

But Odie,

You gotta git with the program here, dude. Your worth as an individual is directly proportional to how much your "stuff" costs. You really want a rep as some low-rent, M-2 guy? C'mon, spring some coin for that HX-9001 platinum-coated chunk of Dipolarized Clavin-ground alloy that's ga-ron-teed to get your work ensconced in a special wing of the Renwick.

Oh, did I mention that the "chicks will be free?"

:D:D
 

odie

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Odie - the same is true of High C tool steel vs M2. It is a matter of edge retention. Not all of us are "wunderkinds" on the grinder and better steels can be maintained longer with a hone. Obviously I am a materials oriented guy, but I don't like to see people not using the best OR wasting money on alloys unnecessarily. It is economical in my mind to move past M2 to M4 or 10V.

Oops, I am supposed to be turning - it is Father's Day!!

Jerry

Jerry........

Very true about the carbon steels.....they are capable of equally sharp edges, too!

I have a few carbon steel tools, but haven't used them in ages. They, as well, are capable of producing just as sharp an edge as the M2, and 2060......but, just don't hold a keen edge for very long. I suppose this is why you don't see many (or any) carbon steel lathe tools being offered for sale anymore........

The ability of carbon steel and M2 steel to produce a sharp edge may be the same, but when comparing the two steels, the ability to keep the sharp edge is significantly better with the M2.......and, although I haven't tried the V10 or V15 steels in this thread, I have tried the 2060, and the difference between it and the M2 is noticeable, but much less significant....

You are correct about those who have trouble sharpening will be enjoying their lathe experience more, when they don't have to sharpen quite as often. It all comes down to whether these turners will stick with it long enough to gain the knowledge they lack.......some do, most don't! :(

All of this is only discussion for me.......in no way am I saying that the more exotic steels have no place in the industry, or that they won't be a good investment to any turner........my main point is the value of the exotic steels become less important to those who have no difficulty getting the refined sharp edge they want......without much 2nd thought to it. :cool2:

(I think this was Mark's point, too! :) )



ooc
 
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odie

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But Odie,

You gotta git with the program here, dude. Your worth as an individual is directly proportional to how much your "stuff" costs. You really want a rep as some low-rent, M-2 guy? C'mon, spring some coin for that HX-9001 platinum-coated chunk of Dipolarized Clavin-ground alloy that's ga-ron-teed to get your work ensconced in a special wing of the Renwick.

Oh, did I mention that the "chicks will be free?"

:D:D

OK, OK........you made me LOL! :D

ooc
 
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Jerry........

Very true about the carbon steels.....they are capable of equally sharp edges, too!

I have a few carbon steel tools, but haven't used them in ages. They, as well, are capable of producing just as sharp an edge as the M2, and 2060......but, just don't hold a keen edge for very long. I suppose this is why you don't see many (or any) carbon steel lathe tools being offered for sale anymore........

Which is a shame. HCS tools touch up quickly with gouge stones and slips, in contrast to their more "abrasion-resistant" cousins. Think that's why most folks end up at the grinder rather than hone at the lathe. I know it's why I do.

Now we have to ask, even if you're a reasonably light touch, how many hones equal one grind? I'm going to say that the cost of the exotic alloy or name tools cannot be justified by their wear resistance. Economy means nothing at all to a hobbyist, and very little to a production turner when you measure the output of one tool, even M2.
 

odie

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Which is a shame. HCS tools touch up quickly with gouge stones and slips, in contrast to their more "abrasion-resistant" cousins. Think that's why most folks end up at the grinder rather than hone at the lathe. I know it's why I do.

Now we have to ask, even if you're a reasonably light touch, how many hones equal one grind? I'm going to say that the cost of the exotic alloy or name tools cannot be justified by their wear resistance. Economy means nothing at all to a hobbyist, and very little to a production turner when you measure the output of one tool, even M2.

Howdy MM......

Not sure if your question is for me directly, or in general........

However, I'd have to say the number of times I can hone really depends on the curvature I'm working on at the time. A tighter curve will be negatively effected by multiple honings more so than a more gradual curve.

Multiple honings will bring back the edge to the same sharpness as the first time, but the tip of the edge will be continually worn away to the point that, no matter how sharp it is, the bevel won't be one smooth continual curvature as with the initial hollow ground surface direct from the grinder. That disparity is more of a problem when attempting to cut a tighter curve, than a more gradual curve.

If you want a real number for an answer.......I'd have to say around 5 honings on up to about 10......but, no number will be an absolute.

ooc
 
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A hollow-ground bevel means little except less metal to remove to return the edge to peak performance. Since most don't hone, means almost nothing in turning any more.

Point of course, was to consider what real economy we might expect from exotic alloys when grinding to renew the edge substitutes for honing.

Since I don't consider myself bound by the name of a gouge any more than I am impressed by the name on it, I use smaller diameters to turn tighter corners. Never a problem for me, nor, I am confident, is it a problem for those who grind with no hollow at all.
 

odie

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A hollow-ground bevel means little except less metal to remove to return the edge to peak performance. Since most don't hone, means almost nothing in turning any more.

Point of course, was to consider what real economy we might expect from exotic alloys when grinding to renew the edge substitutes for honing.

Since I don't consider myself bound by the name of a gouge any more than I am impressed by the name on it, I use smaller diameters to turn tighter corners. Never a problem for me, nor, I am confident, is it a problem for those who grind with no hollow at all.

MM.......You do, of course, understand that the hollow grind gives a two-point fulcrum to your tool, don't you?

It's a very useful concept for most turners. It's a given that it's not necessary all of the time.......but, the times it's applicable, become times of importance.

Smaller diameters may work better when negotiating a tighter curve........ if you are in the habit of grinding all gouges with the same profile. Really, this depends on the length of the bevel, not the diameter of the shaft. Just wondering.......do you grind all of your gouges with the same length of bevel?

We are discovering some interesting things about your methods, MM.......very interesting!

ooc
 
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AlanZ

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Odie,

A flat grind also gives 2 fulcrum points.
 

odie

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Odie,

A flat grind also gives 2 fulcrum points.

Well.....yes, to a point, I'd have to agree.......

A flat grind used in a two point fulcrum, is not capable of dipping below the surface on the exterior, but you are correct that it has usefulness on the interrior......just that it isn't as useful as with a hollow grind.......check it out.

(Gotta go for now.....am running over to Idaho for the day.......will be back later.)

ooc
 
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Odie,

A flat grind also gives 2 fulcrum points.

A convex grind gives "infinite" fulcrum points for very precise control. That's why I use it for my carving chisels. Honed on the hard arky, they also leave a lovely "chisel polish" on the wood. Not worth the time for turning tools, however, except I do use a grind learned from David Ellsworth for a 3/8" detail gauge shown in the attached photo. [Photo credit to David as published in the WoodCentral "Tool Grinds" Library.]
 

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Steve Worcester

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A convex grind gives "infinite" fulcrum points for very precise control. That's why I use it for my carving chisels. Honed on the hard arky, they also leave a lovely "chisel polish" on the wood. Not worth the time for turning tools, however, except I do use a grind learned from David Ellsworth for a 3/8" detail gauge shown in the attached photo. [Photo credit to David as published in the WoodCentral "Tool Grinds" Library.]

It's only infinite if you don't rub the bevel, in this case, it really wasn't designed to do so as much.

Multiple fulcrum points is really a minus in the case where you want to rub the bevel. Unsupported tools don't work that well, with the exception of some scraping methods.
 
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It's only infinite if you don't rub the bevel, in this case, it really wasn't designed to do so as much.

Multiple fulcrum points is really a minus in the case where you want to rub the bevel. Unsupported tools don't work that well, with the exception of some scraping methods.

Disagree, Steve. With a convex bevel I can ride any point on that curve, right up to the edge, as a fulcrum depending on how much bite I want the cutting edge to take. The fulcrum becomes any point that contacts the wood, and the polished surface doesn't rough up a clean cut. Tool acts very much like a skew, but it cuts like a gouge. I don't need to engage the heel of a hollow-grind gouge for control.

On those now-rare occasions when I turn bowls, I use two different gouges for inside and outside cuts. The "inside" tool has the heel ground off to avoid compression of the surface fibers.
 
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Sorry but I can't wrap my head around that one Mark. If your not rubbing the bevel right below the cutting edge your not cutting. In the picture you show if your fulcrum is a 1/4 inch below the cutting edge in my mind your going to run out of cut very quickly and it would be more like a scrape.
Bill
 
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MM.......You do, of course, understand that the hollow grind gives a two-point fulcrum to your tool, don't you?

I'm not interested in prying off wood, so the heel is merely an annoyance which, if I'm careless, compresses the wood behind the cut, causing a "ring" that I have to raise with wet and sand away. As I've said many times, the bevel is supported side to side -along its length- as the cut is progressively deepened by the roll/skew of the tool. Allows the same angle grind to be used at many sharpness angles up to and including scraping. The fulcrum I use is on the toolrest.

The heel on the bottom of cylindrical gouges is a secondary, larger annoyance.
 
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A convex grind gives "infinite" fulcrum points for very precise control. That's why I use it for my carving chisels. Honed on the hard arky, they also leave a lovely "chisel polish" on the wood. Not worth the time for turning tools, however, except I do use a grind learned from David Ellsworth for a 3/8" detail gauge shown in the attached photo. [Photo credit to David as published in the WoodCentral "Tool Grinds" Library.]

Lots of carvers round the heels of their scooping tools. Paring and planing tools don't get the treatment. When the work moves continuously, you merely have to maintain position to remove material, not swing and scoop.

Lots of turners grind the heel of their cylindrical gouges to get some clearance and minimize the possibility of heel bruises. It was one of the first answers to the problems posed by the cylindrical design.
 

odie

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A convex grind gives "infinite" fulcrum points for very precise control. That's why I use it for my carving chisels. Honed on the hard arky, they also leave a lovely "chisel polish" on the wood. Not worth the time for turning tools, however, except I do use a grind learned from David Ellsworth for a 3/8" detail gauge shown in the attached photo. [Photo credit to David as published in the WoodCentral "Tool Grinds" Library.]
It's only infinite if you don't rub the bevel, in this case, it really wasn't designed to do so as much.

Multiple fulcrum points is really a minus in the case where you want to rub the bevel. Unsupported tools don't work that well, with the exception of some scraping methods.

Mark.....

My first thought is to agree with Steve on this.......but, I'll have to admit I've never tried a "convex" grind. I've been using the motorized grinding wheel since the 1980's, and have gotten used to the hollow grind.....or, "concave" as in the picture. I first started sharpening my lathe tools on a 4x36 belt sander, which gave a flat grind......but, that didn't last very long because, from my perspective, the hollow grind has advantages that are very important to tool control.

Now.......in with the new concept.....the "convex" grind you seem to like. :eek:

Just curious.......how do you obtain your convex grind?.....just doing it on a belt sander? How are you trueing up your edge?

ooc


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of turners grind the heel of their cylindrical gouges to get some clearance and minimize the possibility of heel bruises. It was one of the first answers to the problems posed by the cylindrical design.

MM is correct about this......

Although I don't always take the edge off the heel of the bevel, for some grinds, I do it on a regular basis......and, I assume it would be correct to assume that many/most other turners do this, as well.

ooc
 

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I have tried a convex grind on one of my skews like Eli Avesera uses. I have found it to be more user friendly, and easier to do shallow coves with than with the standard bevel. You can ride the back of the bevel with the cutting edge up a bit higher. If you raise the handle too far, you do get the spiral dig in.

robo hippy
 
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Sorry but I can't wrap my head around that one Mark. If your not rubbing the bevel right below the cutting edge your not cutting. In the picture you show if your fulcrum is a 1/4 inch below the cutting edge in my mind your going to run out of cut very quickly and it would be more like a scrape.
Bill

Bill, With this grind, the tool cuts almost exactly like a skew but cuts concave surfaces which a skew can't (when operated by me ;) ). Remember though, that this is a fine detail tool. I use it to finish cut across the foot surface, and it's ideal to pare down the "pressure block" when working with the tailstock engaged at the end of finish turning as it cleanly slices through the fibers. I also use it to cut precise dovetail rings prior to fixing with a scroll chuck. There is always some point on the bevel that is rubbing, even if it's only a few microns behind the edge.

hth
 
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Mark.....
Just curious.......how do you obtain your convex grind?.....just doing it on a belt sander? How are you truing up your edge?

To shape the bevel, I start at the heel with the shaft at 90° to the wheel and rotate the shaft through 180° gradually working toward the nose. I then transfer to 220 emery cloth and finally to 600 grit paper. Once the bevel is shaped and polished, I go back to 220 paper to refine the cutting edge with a alternating push/twist stroke starting with the flute level. Then, a couple of quick hones with the diamond card brings the edge to very sharp and any burr is removed with a hard Arkansas slip on the flute's top surface.

As it gets dull, a quick hone brings back the edge.
 

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I'm not interested in prying off wood, so the heel is merely an annoyance which, if I'm careless, compresses the wood behind the cut, causing a "ring" that I have to raise with wet and sand away. As I've said many times, the bevel is supported side to side -along its length- as the cut is progressively deepened by the roll/skew of the tool. Allows the same angle grind to be used at many sharpness angles up to and including scraping. The fulcrum I use is on the toolrest.

The heel on the bottom of cylindrical gouges is a secondary, larger annoyance.

That's where you have a short bevel that you ride and a relief of a greater angle behind it
 
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Clearance angle. Standard terminology from other edge vs. wood specialties. http://homepages.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/chapters/caop.html Fig 1-2. None there if you roll an eighth of an inch from a lateral cutting point toward the nose. As I said above, the heel doesn't touch, because it has nothing to do with cutting, only dragging and compressing the wood. Or, used as a "second fulcrum," a way to push the edge out of the cut.

Pitch angle variation is how I transition from severing at right angles to planing along the grain or points in between. The big heel just gets in the way, so I use a wing on a variable thickness, or, my preferred, a constant-thickness, constant angle gouge.
 

odie

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Clearance angle. Standard terminology from other edge vs. wood specialties. http://homepages.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/chapters/caop.html Fig 1-2. None there if you roll an eighth of an inch from a lateral cutting point toward the nose. As I said above, the heel doesn't touch, because it has nothing to do with cutting, only dragging and compressing the wood. Or, used as a "second fulcrum," a way to push the edge out of the cut.

Pitch angle variation is how I transition from severing at right angles to planing along the grain or points in between. The big heel just gets in the way, so I use a wing on a variable thickness, or, my preferred, a constant-thickness, constant angle gouge.

Hi MM.........

Like you, I don't feel rubbing the bevel is necessary for a good percentage of cuts. I use it to an advantage at times when it serves to steady the cut. It's a method of tool control, and the sole purpose is not to lever the tool out of the cut, but to steady the edge while cutting.....and, it does do a very good job in that role.

It does drag, as you say, but if it's compressing the wood, you may be taking too much of a bite for a single cut. If done right, it will leave the rub mark, but it's very slight.....and, very easy to remove when you begin sanding. The benefits of clean cutting you get with the two point fulcrum is well worth the slight rub mark you'll have to eliminate later.

ooc
 
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