Removing the burr.....slipstone, diamond cone......or ?

[odie]

I'm having a hard time coming to a conclusion about the best method of burr removal in the interior of bowl gouge flutes.

It's probably been close to 20 years that I first started using a round diamond coated steel sharpener for burr removal, but the non-tapered shape only lent itself to usefulness for a certain few gouges. I've been using regular slip stones since day one!

I bought my first cone shaped diamond hone about five years ago......and, it's been wonderful for getting inside the flute of any bowl gouge I have.

I have several sets of slipstones.....Henry Taylor (dark grey), and Mittel (reddish brown). Of these two slipstone sets, I'd have to say the Taylors are the better of the two.....producing the best results. I have third set of ceramic white slipstones that work ok, but wear fast......never really used these that much, because they seem too soft to last very long.

What I've never been able to determine is whether the Taylor slipstones, or the diamond cone takes that burr off cleaner. I've gone so far as to experiment with a single gouge on a single piece of difficult to cut wood.......sharpen as usual, with only difference being the diamond cone vs the Henry Taylor grey slipstones......and, you know..........it really seems like it makes no difference at all......the sharpness seems to be the same either way.

Since I have both, I use both......although it really is inconsequential, either way........

What I'm searching for is some of you'alls input on burr removal......how do you do it, what you feel is best, and what basis do you have for your conclusions.

thanks

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Morning Odie,

I've been using the same hard Arkansas slip-hone (flat wedge with radiused edges) on all my carving and turning gouges for over 40 years. I do not, however, hone a micro back-bevel, but rather use a couple of out-to-in strokes from each corner to remove the wire edge (burr) pushed up by the abrasive on the bevel. Skew-form tools get lightly lapped with either a diamond hone or a piece of 1000 grit on glass. My edges will cut hair, but not necessarily split one.

 

[robo hippy]

I haven't bothered with removing the burr. The only time it makes any difference that I can notice is if I am using a swept back profile, and dropping the handle for a fine shear finish cut. I prefer a scraper with a good burr for that cut.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

I have one of the cone shaped diamond fish hook sharpeners. However I only use it if I freshly sharpen the gouge for the final cut. for 90 percent of what I do it doesn't make a difference. The burr is gone 2 seconds after I start cutting. If I have a problem wood that just doesn't want to cut clean I will sharpen the gouge, then hone the outside with a diamond hone and then hone the inside with the fish sharpener.

 

[Wayne Spence]

Burr removal

Odie-Like Mark I have used hard Arkansas stones since my first purchase in 1965. They are superior to any stone I have ever used including the Japanese and the new metallic oxides. I have never honed on any turning tools, only carving tools. There could be a slight difference between the two types of tools in regard to the burr as carving tools are high carbon steel and turning tools are high speed. I don't know much about the grain structure of high speed steel. My very limited experience with diamond is that the matrix is either toohard or too soft.

Sounds like the Taylor could be aluminum oxide or an Arkansas and the Mittel an India stone. I am guessing from the color.

Did you not buy a microscope or hand lens a year or two ago just for the purpose of examining and comparing edges? I had 3 hand lenses, all B&L from the late 50's, excellent quality optics. Was going to send you one but cannot find them, perhaps I traded for an Ipod.

In the end what works best is the one to use regardless or talk about grain size, new technology etc.

 

[Robert Manning]

After repeated sharpening, I sometimes notice a burr developing on the inside of my Chinese gouge, mainly on the wings. I use a 4mm round diamond hone to remove the burr and then sharpen the gouge on the grinder. The hone has a groove for sharpening fishhooks which is one of my secrets for hooking the big one.

 

[hockenbery]

Sharpening - probably the area where turners have the least agreement.

I don't remove the burr from gouges after sharpening.
I think the burr helps the tool cut.
I like the burr when shear scraping too.

I do use a slip stone to clean the flute occasionally. when sap and stuff is visible in the flute I clean it with slip stone before sharpening.

A skew has to cut both ways an be extra sharp. This i hone on bothb sides with a diamond hone.

-Al

 

[odie]

Morning Odie,

I've been using the same hard Arkansas slip-hone (flat wedge with radiused edges) on all my carving and turning gouges for over 40 years. I do not, however, hone a micro back-bevel, but rather use a couple of out-to-in strokes from each corner to remove the wire edge (burr) pushed up by the abrasive on the bevel. Skew-form tools get lightly lapped with either a diamond hone or a piece of 1000 grit on glass. My edges will cut hair, but not necessarily split one.

Odie-Like Mark I have used hard Arkansas stones since my first purchase in 1965. They are superior to any stone I have ever used including the Japanese and the new metallic oxides. I have never honed on any turning tools, only carving tools. There could be a slight difference between the two types of tools in regard to the burr as carving tools are high carbon steel and turning tools are high speed. I don't know much about the grain structure of high speed steel. My very limited experience with diamond is that the matrix is either toohard or too soft.

Sounds like the Taylor could be aluminum oxide or an Arkansas and the Mittel an India stone. I am guessing from the color.

Did you not buy a microscope or hand lens a year or two ago just for the purpose of examining and comparing edges? I had 3 hand lenses, all B&L from the late 50's, excellent quality optics. Was going to send you one but cannot find them, perhaps I traded for an Ipod.

In the end what works best is the one to use regardless or talk about grain size, new technology etc.

Thanks for your responses, Mark and Wayne.......

I'm not really sure which of the two slipstone sets came first, but both sets were likely purchased around 1982, or so. The Mittel set (India stone), as mentioned, does not do as good a job as the dark grey Taylor set. I'm not sure what the Taylor slipstones are made of....could be dark Arkansas, or a composite of some sort. I suppose that really doesn't matter for my purposes......they'll probably outlast me! I cannot find the same two sets of stones with an internet search, so neither set are likely to be offered currently.

Yes, I do have that micro-45x microscope.......suppose I should get it out and do some looking with it. I'm not so sure it will reveal anything worthwhile, because I would think the hands-on results of the cut would probably be the final conclusive evidence to consider......and there, I'm just not seeing any difference between the diamond cone, and the Taylor slipstone. They both remove the burr with equal fineness of edge.

It has been my finding that a burr on the flute of a gouge is pretty much unavoidable, because you can feel it with your finger, just as you can feel it on a scraper. I'm surprised to hear of those who don't bother with the slipstone, because it's such a quick and easy thing to do.

If the burr is just ignored, and the gouge is put to use without further preparation, what do you suppose happens to that burr? If you are familiar with the shape of a burr, it should be fairly apparent the point of the edge will be directed away from the cut, on a gouge......whereas the point is facing the cut on a scraper. I've never had to consider this, because I've never not used a slipstone on my gouges.

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Odie,

Scrapers are very much a different animal as the operative cutting edge is a burr. I sharpen mine by grinding/honing the bevel, then lap the top "edge" flat, then raise a new burr with a burnisher just as I do with card scrapers.

I've always regarded the grinding burr as a "false edge" that is brittle and gone with the first few cuts. When it gets broken off by the wood, IMO you loose the opportunity for a truly sharp edge on the gouge. I can't get a finer edge than the grit of the stone used to grind the bevel, but I can get a more durable edge by removing the burr. Since I sharpen my turning gouge with just light kisses of the fine (120) wheel, the resulting burr is very small and easily removed with the Arkansas.

Carving chisels are a whole different deal, and are honed to the point of a polished surface meeting a polished surface.

 

[odie]

Odie,

Scrapers are very much a different animal as the operative cutting edge is a burr. I sharpen mine by grinding/honing the bevel, then lap the top "edge" flat, then raise a new burr with a burnisher just as I do with card scrapers.

I've always regarded the grinding burr as a "false edge" that is brittle and gone with the first few cuts. When it gets broken off by the wood, IMO you loose the opportunity for a truly sharp edge on the gouge. I can't get a finer edge than the grit of the stone used to grind the bevel, but I can get a more durable edge by removing the burr. Since I sharpen my turning gouge with just light kisses of the fine (120) wheel, the resulting burr is very small and easily removed with the Arkansas.

Carving chisels are a whole different deal, and are honed to the point of a polished surface meeting a polished surface.

Agreed, Mark .......What I was getting at, is the angle of the burr on a gouge vs scraper is entirely different, as the gouge isn't presented to the wood in a manner that would point the burr towards the intended cut......whereas the scraper does. In other words, the burr on a gouge would be bent away from the cut, while the burr on a scraper would be directly presented to the wood........

I use an 80gt SG wheel, so my burrs are probably bigger than yours are, since you are using a 120gt wheel......and for my purposes, does require a means of removing the burr. My whole purpose here was to get some input on whether the diamond cone, or slipstone was better, in the view point of some of the participants of this forum.......not to debate whether or not removing the burr is worthwhile.......I've already determined that it was, for my purposes.

ooc

 

[steelguy]

Hones, Burrs, Scrapers and Gouges

If you refer to the Alan Lacer/Jerry Wright articles in AW around Dec 2008 and June 2009, you can see what the burrs on scrapers and gouges look like at quite high magnification. Also you will see images of the cutting edges as well as the related cut wood surfaces. There also are discussions relative to diamond hones and stones and their appropriatness for today's highly alloyed HSS and PM turning tools.

Jerry

 

[robo hippy]

My scraper burrs are done on an 80 grit CBN wheel which may give a lot better burr. I do push it into the wheel as opposed to just kissing the bevel. This gives a good sturdy burr that keeps it edge as long as any of my gouges do. Super tool for heavy bowl roughing and finish shear cuts as well. A burnished burr isn't any more durable than the ones from my CBN wheels.

robo hippy

 

[Mark Mandell]

My scraper burrs are done on an 80 grit CBN wheel which may give a lot better burr. I do push it into the wheel as opposed to just kissing the bevel. This gives a good sturdy burr that keeps it edge as long as any of my gouges do. Super tool for heavy bowl roughing and finish shear cuts as well. A burnished burr isn't any more durable than the ones from my CBN wheels.

robo hippy

May agree on durability, but disagree on sharpness. The honed edge on the scraper will provide a much sharper burr than the 80 grit edge off your wheel. I have, however, had this kind of discussion with very good turners who maintain that the courser grit of an 80 grit wheel gives a better edge for cutting wood, somewhat like the serrated knife concept. I see the point, but prefer my way.

BTW, my next fine wheel with be a CBN 180.

peace

 

[robo hippy]

I have experimented with a honed burr, and a burnished burr. The honed burr is gone in seconds, and works best on very hard woods. I burnished burr is durable, and a bit sharper than the burr from my grinder, but not a lot. The thing is that there are so many variations on burrs, that it is a "individual results may vary" situation.

Mark, are you getting one of the D Way wheels? They sound pretty good, but are a lot different than the ones I have. I was lucky enough to get mine made locally at Northwest Super Abrasives. I think they were mentioned in the recent AAW article. I really need to get around to renewing my membership.

robo hippy

 

[Mark Mandell]

I have experimented with a honed burr, and a burnished burr. The honed burr is gone in seconds, and works best on very hard woods. I burnished burr is durable, and a bit sharper than the burr from my grinder, but not a lot. The thing is that there are so many variations on burrs, that it is a "individual results may vary" situation.

Mark, are you getting one of the D Way wheels? They sound pretty good, but are a lot different than the ones I have. I was lucky enough to get mine made locally at Northwest Super Abrasives. I think they were mentioned in the recent AAW article. I really need to get around to renewing my membership.

robo hippy

Actually looked up and called Cuttermasters.com. They were out of 8" wheels but "have tons" of 6" in both 100 and 180 grit. More than a bit salty at $160 per. As my 120 grit wheel is within acceptable limits, I won't be shopping for real until later this year.

 

[robo hippy]

I think the Dwaytools ones are $150, 1 1/2 inch wide, and electroplated onto a steel hub. Mine are 8 inch wheels on a 1 inch aluminum hub, and is 3/16 inch of matrix (stuff the mix the abrasives with) bonded to the wheel. Mine are 5 years old, and still have half the matrix left. I have an 80 and a 150 grit. I had a 320 grit wheel, but it wore out in a year. The wheels I have will out last me.

robo hippy

 

[Mark Levitski]

After much experimenting, I have noticed no appreciable difference in edge performance from a straight off the grinder burr from one that is finessed w/ honing/burnishing. This is for both scrapers and gouges.

"Least agreement": this is not aircraft part tolerance stuff, guys/gals. However, each to his/her own. Worried about runout to the thousandth on your lathe? I'm not. Look at the final product as both you and admirers/purchasers will see it and the most efficient way to get it there.

Find me in the camp of Robo and Al H.

Mark L.

 

[Royce Wallace]

stones I use

I happen to remove the burrs at all times. I have read the various dialoges that have been published over the years, including those by Alan Lancer. I use his diamond slip stone as well as a round tapered diamond. I have used all of the old time stones over the years--today I prefer the diamonds to all others.
IMHP the diamons are best and do not wear.

 

[Harry Robinette]

diamone hone

Odie
I use what allot of people call a Diamond Fishing Hook Hone.About 1/8" in diameter 2 rounded,1 flat and a v shape side. PSI is now selling a kit for these.
I've been using diamond hone sense 2001. I don't think going from the grinder to the wood is a good idea cause you break off the burr and if you break the steel it's got to be dull,I can't understand breaking the burr off and it leaving a sharp edge. If I take an extra 10 or 15 seconds to give my tool a sharper edge so what, I not turning production.
Also I can stop and put a superfine edge on my tool in just a few seconds.
So I figure I start with a sharper tool and I can keep my tool sharper so way not hone.
Harry

 

[odie]

Odie
I use what allot of people call a Diamond Fishing Hook Hone.About 1/8" in diameter 2 rounded,1 flat and a v shape side. PSI is now selling a kit for these.
I've been using diamond hone sense 2001. I don't think going from the grinder to the wood is a good idea cause you break off the burr and if you break the steel it's got to be dull,I can't understand breaking the burr off and it leaving a sharp edge. If I take an extra 10 or 15 seconds to give my tool a sharper edge so what, I not turning production.
Also I can stop and put a superfine edge on my tool in just a few seconds.
So I figure I start with a sharper tool and I can keep my tool sharper so way not hone.
Harry

Now, if one were to think about this some, Harry is applying some "horse-sense" to his logic!

I just can't see that when a burr is still attached "steel to steel"......how can it be assumed that when the burr breaks off, it will result in a clean cutting edge.....? The logic in that is lacking.

I know from experience, that the broken burr will still have a decent cutting ability......but, it's not as good as if that burr were honed off.

A cutting edge, no matter to what degree of sharpness it has, will be rounded over within minutes of lathe work. There is nothing that will prevent that, but the longer a turner waits to resharpen, or hone, the more trueing up it will require to get the maximum best edge back. For me, I choose to grind, remove burr in flute for a better visual of the edge itself, true up the exterior edge with flat diamond, then remove the interior flute burr again as the final step. Once a sharp edge is had, I can re-hone the edge repeatedly for up to ten or twelve times with the flat diamond before needing to return to the grinder...... but each time I do that, the burr will have to be removed to insure the absolute sharpest edge is maintained.

I know a lot of turners will procrastinate, and wait much longer than they should to clean up the edge on their cutting tools. One must "bite the bullet" and get used to the idea of re-doing the edge over and over again, as their turning progresses. For me, this is a matter of just a few minutes of actual cutting time on your project before the edge has lost its keen sharpness. When repeated re-honing becomes part of the process, you will do it instinctively, and it takes less than a minute to do.......and, the results are worth it! (When I say "a few minutes of cutting time", I'm really talking about a longer period of time, since I'm continually starting and stopping the lathe for inspection of the results.)

ooc

BTW: I just ordered the newest set of Taylor light colored slipstones from CSUSA. These are made from silicone carbide. Will test these against the cone diamond, and older set of darker Taylor slipstones. The India Stone slipstones are retired, and have been for some time.