air supply systems- what is best

[ebrannon]

I have searched some old threads, but the information is a bit scattered.

Question deals with air supply systems and what you use or recommend.

In my shop, I have a grizzly dust collector with 4" tube over the lathe, I have a Jet air ceiling mounted unit I use when there is dust in the air. I wear a Trend Pro.

Last week I was working on a piece and needed to use quite a bit of CA glue, and got a real snoot full. At the time, I think I had the dust system off, but had my Trend helmet on.

I got gassed pretty bad and caused a respiratory response that bothered me for a few days. It was a wake up call to pay more attention to toxic chemicals and dust.

I would like a system that brings outside air in to a helmet with a face shield that is not noisy or heavy to wear. To me the Trend is tolerable for noise, but not ideal. Also, a bit heavy.

Researching systems that supply air from an OSHA rated pump hose to a belt you wear, then a hose up to the back of a 3M Bumpcap helmet. Seems like a good system, EXCEPT it will cost about $1500.00 total. I will spend it to protect my lungs since I spend quite a lot of time turning these days and want to do so without getting lung problems!

Any sources for such a system that works? All the belt systems with batteries have the same draw back is it is "filtered" air (ie chemical fumes can come right through) and small particles of less than 1 or2 microns also are not stopped.

My shop is in my basement, so I really cannot rig one of those large high volume slow moving fans that essentially have a continuous draw of air over your work and away from your face. The climate is too cold most of the year, or hot the rest.

Images MUCH appreciated of your systems.

(also, I am not looking to build the cheapest thing possible, just a very effective system at a reasonable cost and one I will use day in and day out).


Ed

 

[Paul M. Kaplowitz]

Air Supply

I have no idea what there is to do what you want. I have a reaction to ca glues also. What I do is put a small box fan to one side of the bench when I am glueing and it blows the fumes away before they get to me. They are dispersed in the shop and don"t bother me. It is only when I get a direct snootful that I start reacting.

 

[Rob Wallace]

Check out what Malcolm Zander did with his air helmet

Ed:

See the mini-article at the bottom of page 4 of the pdf file that can be found HERE.

Might be something you would be interested in emulating....

Rob Wallace

(PS - Is the Environmental Center in Milford still in operation near the Delaware River Bridge?)

 

[Bill Boehme]

3M Breathe Easy

The 3M Breathe Easy system gives you the option of using various types of filters besides the HEPA dust filter. Some are designed for pesticides and VOC's from spray finishes. Rather than going the supplied air route with a hose that tethers your movements, you might look into the Breathe Easy system.

It sounds like you were using a large quantity of CA and/or using accelerator. A high-order exothermic reaction is very likely if you "set off" a large quantity of CA with even a tiny amount of accelerator. These exothermic reactions will generate a huge volume of noxious fumes. When using CA, I almost always go outdoors so that the fumes will quickly disperse. I also do not get my face close to any CA glue before it cures.

Since your shop is in a basement, I suggest doing your CA work outdoors. Even if you get some type of workable system for your personal breathing protection, the fumes will still be in the house and will eventually waft into the living quarters where it may bother others in your household.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Ca

I have commented about my reactions to superglue before-If I smell it 2x I will get a stuffed up (clogged) nose beginning 8 hours later. Taking antihistamines right away helps. Before I diagnosed the problem, if exposed for a couple of days, there would be burning in the chest. A few weeks later I remember I coughed up yukky tasting stuff (lung airways sloughing????). I found that oderless thin stuff from Starbond (costs 3x more) doesn't not affect me. However it doesn;t come in the thick stuff. I have a $40 "gas mask" but can't use it well with my glasses. If I have to use it (like gluing up ice cream scoops) , I try to do outside. One time however there was no breeze and it stiull affected me. The fan idea is something I should try. Gretch

 

[john lucas]

I simply turn my dust collector on when using CA. I have the 4" hose about a foot or less away. I have not had a problem and don't wear any kind of respirator.

 

[Dean Center]

It sounds like you were using a large quantity of CA and/or using accelerator. A high-order exothermic reaction is very likely if you "set off" a large quantity of CA with even a tiny amount of accelerator. These exothermic reactions will generate a huge volume of noxious fumes.
When using CA, I almost always go outdoors so that the fumes will quickly disperse. I also do not get my face close to any CA glue before it cures.

Well, Tex, some of us live in a temperate climate (about 10 degrees at this moment), so going outside is not always an option . Do you know what the fumes given off by CA are? If it's bad enough, it might motivate me to invest in a better system.

Dean

 

[John Torchick]

Look at wikipedia for info and adverse reactions to CA glue.

 

[John Jordan]

I use a Gast vacuum pump as an air source for a fresh air system than I use with 2k paints. ( for my motorcycle stuff). I just put a simple filter on the vacuum side to keep out bugs and outside dust. I use a hood from a safety equipment company, but your existing hood should work fine. Also, a NEW goodyear 3/8" air hose. If you look up some of the fresh air systems, you can see that the pumps are the same as vacuum pumps.

John

 

[ebrannon]

question about system

John, this looks promising, however, wondering about the safety of using a Gast pump that is not certified for supplying breathing air.

In researching pumps, their are OSHA standards for oil and particles that pass through the pump. I think that is why the pumps are $1200+/- themselves.

Which Gast pump do you use? And does it filter out an oil that may pass through the pump system?

You obviously still alive and kicking.

Ed

 

[John Jordan]

There is no oil in the pump. There are three carbon blades. Not the same as breathing air from a compressor. I can post picture when I have time to find them.

John

 

[AlanZ]

...and of course, with a carbon vane pump you would have to make sure that there's a fine filter to trap the carbon as it wears off the vanes. You likely don't want to inhale that either.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Actually, the vanes are Kevlar so the fine particles would be whatever is used in Kevlar plus aluminum. They are probably fine enough to pass through any kind of filter. The good news is there is not much wear because friction is very low. A supplied-air system uses a blower that does not have rubbing parts. Some Gast rotary vane vacuum pumps do use oil.

If you use a CPAP machine and happened to have an old one sitting around, it could be pressed into service for a supplied air system. I actually considered it, but dragging a hose around was not very attractive.

 

[AlanZ]

Bill,

The vanes in my Gast pumps (0522) are carbon, and do wear over time (I replace one recently and the old one was significantly shorter than the replacement)

Is the kevlar you mentioned part of the 3m BreatheEasy system? My wife uses that one, but I've never had occasion to disassemble the pack.

 

[Steve Worcester]

When I shot 2K paints, I use one of the hobbyair breathers with a hood

http://www.clmcenterprises.com/

I have it piped through a wall in another room, since in a 2K paint with isocyanates, it will go right through a filter and is odorless (at least that part of it). It could be used for woodturning, but I would probably go with a different face setup, something with a safety shield, but I don't see that with them.

If you are looking for something to use just while setting up CA, I would put a strong fan behind it and blow the fumes away, and if you can't open a door or something, it really isn't something to be using in a non-ventilated area.

FWIW, NIOSH approved adds about $200

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... FWIW, NIOSH approved adds about $200

... and MSHA adds another $200 on top of that.

 

[Steve Harder]

A year ago I did something similar to the helmet in the pdf linked to in Rob Wallace's reply.

Original mockup was a normal faceshield (no earmuffs) with ripstop nylon duct taped around faceshield to form an over head shroud.

Air supply from next room powered by a $25 bathroom vent fan reduced down into 35ft of 1 1/2" black flex sump pump hose (new not used!) that runs up my back and over top of head.

Works great. Finish sanding nasty stuff is now almost fun. Previously I would go to bed and wake up with itch scratchy eyes.

Now I usually wear this any time I'm finishing turning any wood that is producing fine dust off of the gouge.

 

[Dean Center]

Anybody have experience with the impact resistance of the full face respirators, such as 3M sells, or the HobbyAir/ProAir linked by Steve?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Anybody have experience with the impact resistance of the full face respirators, such as 3M sells, or the HobbyAir/ProAir linked by Steve?

The 3M products are all certified to applicable standards. They are polycarbonate and certified to meet the requirements of Z87. I have not checked to see what Z87 requires, but any face shield that is certified will have Z87 marked somewhere near the edge of the shield.

If you mean by "experience with the impact resistance" as personally getting beaned, the answer is no. I have no intention of ignoring safety practices just because I have a face shield. My personal safety rule is, "if I won't do something when NOT wearing a face shield, then I also will not do it when wearing one.

While anecdotal information might help to give you a warm fuzzy, it lacks in quantifiable information to be of much use. For that matter, the details of the Z87 standard also won't tell you much in the way of "how much less will my injury be if I am wearing a face shield when hit by a massive chunk of flying wood". All that it does is let you know that the shield is good enough to be certified and, in all likelihood, if it doesn't carry the Z87 mark then it is not able to meet the requirements.

The product that Steve referenced is for breathing protection when spraying paints and may not necessarily be rated for impact resistance.

 

[AlanZ]

Ok, there must be better wording than this

My personal safety rule is, "if I won't do something when NOT wearing a face shield, then I also will not do it when wearing one."

For example, I won't work with a spinning lathe or grinder while NOT wearing a faceshield. Following your guidelines, I should also not do these things while wearing one.

Just trying to prevent an unanticipated catch... in this case a Catch 22.

 

[AnnHerbst]

CPAP use

If you use a CPAP machine and happened to have an old one sitting around, it could be pressed into service for a supplied air system. I actually considered it, but dragging a hose around was not very attractive.

How would one set it up? I thought the machine needs a chip to tell it how much pressure to deliver. Will it run without said chip? I realize I can go find the old one and try it out, but maybe there is one little thing to know first.
Ann

 

[Gynia]

For the older CPAP machines you can find instructions on the web which will tell you the key sequence to enter "command mode" so you can set the pressure to whatever you like (within the range of the machine).

 

[Bill Boehme]

How would one set it up? I thought the machine needs a chip to tell it how much pressure to deliver. Will it run without said chip? I realize I can go find the old one and try it out, but maybe there is one little thing to know first.
Ann

It is not exactly a chip, but it does have a circuit card with a microprocessor and non-volatile RAM so it is essentially a small dedicated purpose computer.

As far as pressure goes, just use the same pressure that you normally would. If you use your full face CPAP mask in conjunction with this, then that would be all that is necessary. The only other thing needed would be a face shield.

If you were simply thinking of hooking it to some sort of home made helmet and face shield without using a CPAP full face mask (in other words, something that looks like a Triton, 3M Breathe Easy, or Trend Airshield) where air flows across your face and then out of the helmet/face shield arrangement, then the CPAP pressure settings would be irrelevant because without the back pressure of a face mask, the unit will simply run at whatever open-loop air flow rate that it is capable of providing. If that turns out to be too much wind across your face, a plastic ball valve can be inserted into the hose to throttle the flow down a bit to something more satisfying.

For the older CPAP machines you can find instructions on the web which will tell you the key sequence to enter "command mode" so you can set the pressure to whatever you like (within the range of the machine).

Or, as in my case, the service tech was too lazy to come out to my home, so he just gave me the instructions over the phone for accessing those menu settings. After that, it was easy enough to extrapolate the procedure to my newer machines when I got them. However, if anybody wants to know the secret handshake, follow Gynia's lead for searching the web and do not ask me how it is done.

 

[Aaron G+11]

I know this might sound a bit blasphemous, but how about stop using CA glue.

There a number of quick setting epoxies out there which have the same or greater holding power than CA glue. Though they do not set up as fast, or wick into a crack as CA, they may also not cause such serious reactions.

A.

 

[Dean Center]

The 3M products are all certified to applicable standards. They are polycarbonate and certified to meet the requirements of Z87. I have not checked to see what Z87 requires, but any face shield that is certified will have Z87 marked somewhere near the edge of the shield.

If you mean by "experience with the impact resistance" as personally getting beaned, the answer is no.

I wasn't suggesting someone should do something foolhardy, merely wondering about the level of impact resistance. There's a paper face mask with a sheet of pliable plastic that keeps splatter from getting in your eyes. Then there's a real face shield, such as we wear when wood turning. I was just looking for some idea of whether the full face respirators actually provide a useful level of impact resistance. I don't know what the Z87 standard is or how it compares to whatever standard my flip up face shield meets.

I guess what I'd like to know is whether a full face respirator has sufficient impact resistance for wood turning, or if it's just wishful thinking to consider.

Dean Center

 

[Bill Boehme]

... I guess what I'd like to know is whether a full face respirator has sufficient impact resistance for wood turning, or if it's just wishful thinking to consider.

The 3M PAPR systems are designed for industrial use such as mines or other environments where both respiratory, face, and head protection are required.

I have a couple face shields that are certified to Z87 in addition to the 3M Airstream. My personal opinion is that the face shield on the 3M Airstream is far more solidly built. With its wrap around design and helmet, I feel that it provides a greater degree of protection.

Since I mentioned the BreathEasy earlier, I should add that it is basically the unit that mounts on the waist that conains the battery, blower, and filter packs. For the head gear, there are several options ranging from a simple bunny suit with a plastic window on the bonnet up to the same helmet and visor that the Airstream uses. Obviously, for woodturning one would want to use a helmet and visor.

 

[Steve Worcester]

Anybody have experience with the impact resistance of the full face respirators, such as 3M sells, or the HobbyAir/ProAir linked by Steve?

The Hobbyair products, the hoods have no impact resistance, don't know about the full face masks.

The 3M and others, you can check out here
http://www.airwareamerica.com/