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tool comparisons

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I am in the market for a large easy to use, long lasting bowl roughing gouge for roughing out my green bowl blanks. And yes i realize their isnt a specific bowl "roughing gouge" per sei
Just wonder if any of you have any exposure to thompsons tools or p& n tools.
And yes I own a ewt. roughing tool and am happy with it but would like something else with a bit more "meat" to it so to speak.
any and all info is appreciated.
 
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Hi Allen,
Checkout dway-tools, I have used them and they hold an edge longer than any of my other gouges. For a comparison, I put a 12" dia. x 8"h maple bowl blank on the lathe and with my Hamlet 2030ASP, taking a shaving about 3/8" wide, I could get about 1 1/2 passes during roughing before I had to sharpen the tool. With the dway, I finished roughing the outside, sharpened and finished roughing the inside.
Dway also donates to the AAW monthly drawing.

Cheers,
 
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Not sure a comparison is possible, especially when roughing. I'm pretty good about trimming my blanks, but one or two trips through some dirty bark can ruin an edge. Note, that this would happen regardless of what expensive alloy or process is employed in making the gouge.

If you're going to feed it roughage, get the type and size that most nearly fits your style - and is on sale. I use a 1 1/4" Sorby purchased on that principle because it's got a lot of undamaged edge left after one trip through dirt.

http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=1012052.mp4

It also is the simplest gouge in the world to touch up, being of uniform thickness. Match the angle, roll the gouge edge to edge, then back to work.
 

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I'm not Larry, but I know D-way and the maker.

Dave ships his tools preground and sharp. He also polishes every aspect of the tool, including the flute. Dave grounds his tools on a conventional friable wheel, then hones them on a diamond wheel.

He uses M42 vrs the 10V/A11 that Doug uses. They both exhibit a higher wear tolerance then M2. Which is actually better would be subject to an interesting argument between alloys

Wiki Article on HSS
M42 is a molybdenum-chromium-vanadium-tungsten high speed steel alloy with an additional 8% cobalt. It is widely used in metal manufacturing because of its superior red-hardness as compared to more conventional high speed steels, allowing for shorter cycle times in production environments due to higher cutting speeds or from the increase in time between tool changes. M42 is also less prone to chipping when used for interrupted cuts and cost less when compared to the same tool made of carbide. Tools made from cobalt-bearing high speed steels can often be identified by the letters HSS-Co.
Data sheet on A11

Data sheet on 10V

TTFN
Ralph
 
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The gouge MM posted is recommended only for use when the grain is in spindle orientation, not for face work.

For a serious bowl roughing gouge I have been using a 0.75" Doug Thompson "v" flute bowl gouge. It's served me very well. Even though it's a "better steel" than the typical HSS, I can't say I've noticed the edge lasting much longer. I mostly like it for its mass.

Hutch
 
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MM,
The gouge you have pictured is only for use when the grain is in spindle orientation. It should never be used for face work.

...Hutch

While you are 100% correct, there was a day, a very long time ago when that was how much bowl turning was done.

George (MM, EMS-George, etc) never switched to the more modern method.

George's method on bowl turning, using that style of gouge, should never be tried by most of us, our skills are not up to using that type of tool
 
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Bowl gouge

Suggest you try the "David Ellsworth Signature" gouge. Can be obtained directly from David, or through Craft Supplies.
Best straightforward versatile and easy to veep sharp.
I have been using this gouge almost exclusively for the past few years. Just an excellent tool.
 
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For the bowl gouges, I prefer the Thompson. Best price as you buy from the guy that makes them, not from a retailer. Excellent edge holding capability. You do need to make or buy handles, but not a problem for me. I prefer a straight round wood handle to anything I have ever tried. Of all the different gouges I have, I reach for the Thompsons the most.

As to the best tool for bowl blank roughing out, my go to tool is the heavy bowl scraper, 3/8 thick, and 1 1/4 or so wide, and swept back to the left (also called an inside bowl scraper). A burr straight from the grinder is best. Do push it into the grinding wheel a bit, rather than just kissing the face of the tool. Angle it down slightly. When you are roughing with a gouge, most of the time the gouge is on its side, and doing more of a scraping cut. What better tool to scrape with than a scraper. Yes, I am a bit unusual in this choice. I started playing around with scrapers several years ago out of curiosity to see how bowl turners in the old days did bowls with only this tool. Found out it works really well.

As to the spindle roughing gouge, you can do finish cuts with it on bowls, but I never found it to be as efficient as a standard gouge, or a scraper for roughing. The tang on it is small compared to a bowl gouge or a heavy scraper, and it isn't made to take the abuse of heavy roughing.

robo hippy
 

hockenbery

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MM,
The gouge you have pictured is only for use when the grain is in spindle orientation. It should never be used for face work.

For a serious bowl roughing gouge I have been using a 0.75" Doug Thompson "v" flute bowl gouge. It's served me very well. But as stated above, tools can take a beating during roughing so it won't necessarily hold an edge much longer. I like it for its mass.

Thanks for the warning. Hope you don't mind if I disregard it. You see, I learned how to use the tool before it was declared a hazard, and I know if I worry I'll get hurt. Sort of like the cartoons where the coyote falls to the canyon floor if he looks down, while the roadrunner takes advantage of the situation and runs on air. I'll continue to stand on the hundreds of years of turning when such tools or, at 90 degrees to the handle - rings and hooks, were the only game in town.

Interesting observation of yours on the orientation of the grain. Take a look at the same tool accomplishing the same task with spindle grain orientation. You'll notice the tool is presented to the work at the same orientation and the forms of shavings taken on interrupted and continuous wood are the same. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=PeelandPare.mp4

One might almost conclude that it's the same cut across and plane down grain regardless the 90 degree difference in mounting. One would be correct in that conclusion.

As to taking a beating when roughing, you are kidding, right? The reason you're taking a beating is because you're giving one. Equal but opposite, isn't it? If you cut rather than hack the wood, you can drop the shavings right off the rough into a bag with all knuckles pink.

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view&current=DontDoThis.mp4
 
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I have a substantial stable of bowl gouges, including but not limited to an Ellsworth, crown, p&n as well as the continental gouge Mr. Mouse uses. I can also use a spindle roughing gouge and have tried a ci1 rougher. I would suggest that bowl gouges are the hardest ones to make a catastrophic mistake with. When you think about what you are doing here, wood is interacting with metal, the metal cuts a slice off, and you control the process. No one can honestly quantify the difference between the types of tools and steels since there are too many variables, anyone telling you otherwise is probably marketing. The upgraded tools are not so far ahead of m2 hss that you won't have to sharpen, sand and acquire technique.
 
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MM, I didn't mean to offend you. I am not claiming that hundreds of years of woodturning don't exist, nor do I claim roughing a bowl blank with a roughing gouge can't be done. Nor was I meaning that you personally shouldn't use a roughing gouge in that manner.

In a forum setting the intention behind posts isn't always clear, and I am not always the best with words. Sorry. My comment was mainly coming from the point of view that novice turners usually don't know how to use the tool in that situation properly. I work part time at a retail woodworking store, and I have seen several roughing gouges come back in two pieces. I have yet to see a heavy bowl gouge broken by a novice. My statement was meant to ensure safe situations.

As for the "edge taking a beating", that statement was intended to reiterate what you stated in the first graph of your post, that bark sometimes holds grit, etc. I was not meaning that roughing is by nature beating the edge of the tool (as in cases of poor technique).

Hutch
 
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My comment was mainly coming from the point of view that novice turners usually don't know how to use the tool in that situation properly. I work part time at a retail woodworking store, and I have seen several roughing gouges come back in two pieces. I have yet to see a heavy bowl gouge broken by a novice. My statement was meant to ensure safe situations.

Well, there's always the alternative of teaching safe methods with effective tools. Now if only people displayed some sense and tried to learn, eh? If someone hasn't the sense of how to cut wood with an edge from whittling, chiseling or carving, though, s/he might stuff a broad nose tool into a spinning piece of wood and suffer consequences. How's the old saw go? "Any design deemed idiot-proof just hasn't encountered the right idiot"? Or similar.

It isn't just the novices, BTW. The man who tried to rename and banish the tool doesn't exactly use it properly in this demo, either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuGMZ3SBlYs&feature=related Imagine what might happen if he tried to use the tool like that with a cross-grain piece? But he's the generally cited authority on such matters.
 

hockenbery

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The video appears to show the peeling cut.

I use a very similar cut on bowls with the wing of the side ground bowl gouge.
If I'm getting a bit of tear out with the bevel riding push cut because of twisting grain or punk wood I try the peeling cut. Same cut Al Stirt often uses on platter faces. I pull the tool with flute up and the cutting edge of the wing at 45 degrees of so with the wood bevel riding. It often cleans up punky wood.
So that cut works quite well on cross grain.

For bowl turning advice, I look at how the folks who turn 50 bowls a day do it. folks like Liam O'neil, Mike Mahoney, David Landcaster, Trent Bosch, Al Stirt.
They all use the side ground bowl gouge.

I suspect in Mike's case he uses it to slow down. He'd probably tun 300 bowls a day with spindle roughing gouge and flood the market and decrease the value of his bowls.:)

These folks use the side ground bowl gouge because time is money.

On the other hand you can turn a bowl with a sharp spoon so what ever tool brings success is fine.

When you see a finished bowl you don't know what tool it was made with.
I've seen bowls made with a chain saw and carving tools that look a whole lot better than some done on a lathe.

Happy turning,
Al
 
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Well, there's always the alternative of teaching safe methods with effective tools. Now if only people displayed some sense and tried to learn, eh? If someone hasn't the sense of how to cut wood with an edge from whittling, chiseling or carving, though, s/he might stuff a broad nose tool into a spinning piece of wood and suffer consequences. How's the old saw go? "Any design deemed idiot-proof just hasn't encountered the right idiot"? Or similar.

It isn't just the novices, BTW. The man who tried to rename and banish the tool doesn't exactly use it properly in this demo, either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuGMZ3SBlYs&feature=related Imagine what might happen if he tried to use the tool like that with a cross-grain piece? But he's the generally cited authority on such matters.

MM, please, not to be argumentative, but other than yourself I don't know nor have heard of anyone else that routinely uses the roughing gouge in the manner that you do. I would be happy to attend a teaching session by some one that has mastered this tool to turn bowls. I may never use the knowledge gained at such a session, still any knowledge of the art/craft of turning is worth exploring.

A novice, approaching woodturning for the first time,especially on the novice's own, would be ill advised to attempt your experienced techniques. While still dangerous, the modern bowl gouge, most would agree, posses a lesser degree of risk to the beginner.
 

hockenbery

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I once saw a great demo by a man who turned a bowl using a round nosed scraper like a shallow gouge. The name escapes me. possibly Buz Blum????

A bevel riding cut with a scraper scares me but it was fun to watch.

Jake,
I think you hit the nail on the head with Safety and the responsibility we have to novice turners in advising them. Basically a mistake with a Spindle roughing gouge on a bowl has potentially much worse consequences than a mistake made with a bowl gouge.

there is no substitute for a good instruction.

Happy Turning,
Al
 
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there is no substitute for a good instruction.

Good sense?

Look at the two negative responses above. Where's the good sense? Can you get a catch when the flute is angled outward? Of course not. Note that any gouge used with flute up is a disaster waiting to happen. Moreover, use of the rest over center outside means all cutting is done where there is a considerable vector pushing the entire tool immediately out of harm's way if there's a sudden loss of control. Good sense.

Good cutting, too. As you see it, it should make you realize that what is happening is really another demonstration of what is universal when working wood with an edge. You bring your jackknife in at a high angle and present only the very edge as you start the cut, decreasing to a minimum clearance angle to peel. You don't bring it broadside and try to cut the grain crosswise. You don't start whittling in the middle of the stick, either. You might rip a big splinter if you did. Same goes for rough turning, where the tool is carried off the end with the initial stroke, repositioned a bit further back, cutting new territory and downhill into old. You carve the same way. Why should turning be any different? You skew your knife, carving tool or plane and the peeling gets easier because of it, as it does with the gouge. Universals. The gouge used as you see in the videos has an additional advantage, in that tilting the tool into the cut and skewing aft allows the area removed initially to support the edge that follows as it deepen the cut while removing an even thickness shaving until such point as the natural curvature of gouge and work allow it to feather its way out almost effortlessly. A broad bite leaves a surface a deep one never could, while removing as much wood.

If those who have gone before knew and used this, what happened back in the 70's? Has something changed in the nature of wood or the condition of an edge which makes things unsafe, or are we just dealing with people who haven't a clue and don't care to get one? Invocation of famous names as objection in lieu of information indicates someone without a clue of what's going on. Why is something unfamiliar to them wrong? Most likely because they've neither tried the motions nor put the mental effort in to understand what's going on. Remember it was exploited by famous turners of an earlier day before today's crop of famous folks was a gleam....

Here is a picture of a sidegrind and a large radius gouge as the wood sees them. Naysayers, please, what's the difference? As it see it the one on the left is properly supported on the rest so that it does not load the hand that holds it. The operator is also at the far end, well behind the rest and out of the throw zone. The shavings don't hide the cut from him, nor are they thrown back into his face as he tries to draw the tool. It's a one-hand possible cut which is enhanced by the second providing the fixed pivot point for entry.

Broad curves and constant bevels make for nearly effortless shaving. They have to, because the turner's left leg is lucky to produce 1/3 HP. The old folks had to figure what removed wood with the least effort, because all the effort came from them, not the wall. Worked pretty rapidly on piecework, as well. Those who cite famous turners turning at mach speed with this tool or that should check Robin Wood's race with a "real" turner one more time.
 

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off topic

thanks for all the opinions but i am afraid we have gotten off track from the original post.
it wasnt intended to give opinion on the "proper or improper" use of any
given gouge.
just what peoples thoughts were on all the different brands and the best value would be for a good BOWL GOUGE
thanks tho
 
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Allen, if you really insist on roughing out w/ a bowl gouge, then a good value would be a Pro PM from Hartville Tool when they're on sale. I bought three 1/2 inch bowl gouges from them and they are very good. And they come w/ handles!

I'm with Robo re: using a hefty scraper. I routinely use a 3/8" thick X 1 1/4" wide rounded scraper to rough out bowls, only using the bowl gouge to slice the grain down the side. The scraper is much easier to quickly cut the facegrain in thick ribbons until the contour on the side gets too steep. You can tell by the feel/sound of the scraper when it is cutting into endgrain too much. Then the gouge prevails. Can rough out very quicly this way if you're not coring. Hmmm, maybe quicker than coring.

I also use a lot of tools in my Kelton handles and would without persuasion buy a tool from Doug T. due to all the accolades.
 
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Allen, I think the Thompson gouges are one of, if not the best gouges on the market, in both value and performance.

...Here is a picture of a sidegrind and a large radius gouge as the wood sees them. Naysayers, please, what's the difference?...

It's primarily the condescending presentation. You have some very valid points and great ideas. It's a shame you have to explain them from way up there on your pedestal.
 

hockenbery

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Here is a picture of a sidegrind and a large radius gouge as the wood sees them. Naysayers, please, what's the difference?

The difference for me is I get a depth of cut of 1/2" to 3/4" with a side ground gouge. With the shallow gouge I can get 1/8 depth of cut possibly 1/4. for me it takes 4 -5 cuts to do on cut with a shallow gouge what 1 cut with the side ground tool does

Maybe some folks get a 3/4" depth of cut with the shallow gouge. I can't.

I can pull the tool giving a good view of the bowl's shape.

For finishing I can use the same tool
Flute up shear cuts give clean cuts even against the grain
Shear scrapes leaves a surface that sand with 220

The bowl gouge is easily used one handed. I do this all the time in demos.

In my opinion the side ground gouge beat the shallow gouge hands down.
Your opinion is the other way round.

-Al
 
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I will agree with you on this one Al. I tried the continental style spindle roughing gouge. The biggest kerf I could remove was maybe 1/8 inch. With my scrapers, or a swept back gouge, I am limited only by the horse power/torque of my lathe, as in 1/4 to 3/4 deep, and 1 inch plus wide. I think the one advantage to the scraper is that you can push or pull without having to change grip or tool angle. Our club had a 5 minute challenge as in what could you turn to finish in 5 minutes. I had a 3 inch deep by 10 inch wide bowl blank, green of course, that was drilled to depth so I didn't have to stop to measure. I did it in about 4:45. I can finish turn a 3 bowl set, green wood, 14 by 6 in 40 to 45 minutes. Robust American Beauty, 3 hp. It would be interesting to see what I could do with 5 hp.

robo hippy
 
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"I pull the tool with flute up and the cutting edge of the wing at 45 degrees of so with the wood bevel riding. It often cleans up punky wood."

I've been using a 1/2" Sorby with a fingernail grind for most bowls. I follow that with a 3/8" Sorby with the same grind for the final cut before I put the bowls away to dry. Al, I tried your method, but the results were very poor. Does your grind look like that which MM posted?

I am not trying to produce a lot of bowls, but I would like to get a better cut in some of the punky maple I'm working with.
 

hockenbery

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Dave,

I use the Ellsworth grind.

One photo shows the profile used in a bevel riding push cut.
the other photo is me doing a roughing pull cut.

Not sure I can describe the finish pull cut. I don't have a photo.
The tool handle is down and the tip of the tool is out of the wood so that the wood cannot drive onto wood.

The bowl on the powermatic picture was taken by Ron Browning.
James McClure and I provides some entertainment with a 20 minute bowl.
While not as impressive as Robo's 3 bowls in 45 min
we turned an 11.5" diameter bowl from maple in a bit under 21 minute. I held James back. The link below takes you to the first of a sequence of phot0s Ron took.
http://browningwoodturning.com/FWS_Instant_Gallery/Pages/FWS_2010_pictures.html#49
 

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Thanks for sharing the photos, Al. I should be able to do the cut described with the grind I have. I'll just have to practice more.
 
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Al,
Looking back and forth between the two pics, I can't really tell that the first one is a push cut. The flutes are pretty closed (rolled away from the cut/at 9 oclock) on both pics, the hand placement seems to be the same, and it doesn't really look like the bevel is rubbing when cutting. Could be a couple of things. For the push cut, I will stand to the right of the bowl, or behind the gouge. For the pull cut, I stand to the left like in the second photo. Body position isn't shown in the first photo. I do hold my gouges level when turning, either with a push or pull cut. Could be an illusion, or just not what I am used to seeing/doing. Also, the tool marks in the first photo are more what I associate with the roughing pull cuts, and not what I associate with bevel rubbing push cuts.

robo hippy
 
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keeping on task

again i thank all who GAVE THEIR OPINIONS REGARDING THE ORIGINAL THREAD
and to the rest i hope you all got the information you were hoping for
nothing personal
 
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"Roughing Gouge"

When I was first starting out, and BRILLIANT, I broke a roughing gouge and had it replaced - the maker told me THEN that it was a "SPINDLE roughing gouge.
Doug Thompson makes a BIG heavy roughing gouge that he told me could be used on any grain orientation, so I DO, and it works fine.

The tang on the previous gouges was insufficient to support the amount of aggression/torque I was able to apply to it. Lacking proper tools or training, the 3/4 "V" or "U" gouges from Doug should keep anyone happy. Even WITH training, I keep my big roughing gouge out of the inside of my bowl work... Once bitten...
I'm not saying that MM isn't right or can't do it, I'm just saying it's not for me.
 

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I'm also a fan of Thompson tools. I like the 5/8" for roughing. I took a class at the Folkschool this week and Linda Suter was the instructor. She like the big 3/4" Thompson. They hold an edge longer than any of the other tools I have Except the various carbide tools. I don't use those for roughing.
 
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final verdict

Well after digesting all the info and regurgitating parts of it I came to the conclusion that In my opinion ( and im sure many of you will disagree)
the p& N was the best bang for the buck. I have a couple of their gouges now and like em just fine. If they dont last as long as say an elsworth or thompson I can buy two for what one of theirs cost almost.
thanks again
now i just need to become as proficient at using them as some of you.
 

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I wish I had taken a photo of the rough out gouge hanging on the wall at John C Campbell Folk school. It's bent rather badly. That's why we don't recommend using the spindle roughing gouge for bowls. It's not that it can't be done. I've cut the inside of a bowl using the rough out gouge upside down and cutting with the wings. It's a great cut and leaves a good finish. I only did it to show that a cutting edge is a cutting edge and use properly it will work.
Would I recommend it to beginners, never. I've simply seen way too many of them bent or broken when beginners try to use them for bowls.
 
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I wish I had taken a photo of the rough out gouge hanging on the wall at John C Campbell Folk school. It's bent rather badly. That's why we don't recommend using the spindle roughing gouge for bowls. It's not that it can't be done. I've cut the inside of a bowl using the rough out gouge upside down and cutting with the wings. It's a great cut and leaves a good finish. I only did it to show that a cutting edge is a cutting edge and use properly it will work.
Would I recommend it to beginners, never. I've simply seen way too many of them bent or broken when beginners try to use them for bowls.

Once again, you can abuse any tool to death, but not if you apply it using good sense. If you don't get the edge under the wood, you cannot catch. Never let the failures of others prevent you from developing new, or in this case rediscovering old methods. Read the second piece of business in my tag line and then ask how you can bend something if you observe JUST that, let alone other safety considerations.

P&N should do just fine, Alan. you now have another decision to make - how to grind them. I'll recommend starting them as-is, figuring out what best suits your stance, angle and approach. Two truths of edges to recall before you begin any modification - smaller included angles plane with less resistance, but will dig if you try to push them into wood rather than swing them. Larger included angles will plane with greater resistance, forcing the equal but opposite reaction of a thin piece.

Sort of like planing flat wood, you can come up high and almost scrape - keeping it THIN - on mixed grain, or you can go low angle and get the same or better result. I use the broad sweep gouges for planing, which give a lot of support and skew possibilities, and are almost impossible to dig inside. The "bowl" gouges are ground to do that, and they do it well.
 
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