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lets explore belt sander sharpening

john lucas

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When I first started turning all I had to sharpen with was a disc sander. It actually worked really well. I had carbon steel tools. I could move the tool toward the centers where the surface speed was slower and sharpen without burning the tools. As my skills got better I could move out and sharpen faster.
Then I turned my 3" belt sander upside down and tried using that. Worked great except that I didn't take the cloth dust collector bag off. It now has about a dozen small burned holes in it. Fortunately you can patch those with silicone caulking.
I took a weekend class with Frank Sudol and he used a 1" belt sander with a worn out 400 grit belt. It worked for Frank. I had a very hard time getting up to the edge because I couldn't feel when I was on the bevel. I ended up rounding my bevel pretty bad over the weekend trying to get it sharp. I know my skills are better now so I should probably try that again. Maybe with a little course belt at first.
I know Sorby has a new belt sharpening system and I saw a much less expensive system made from a modified Harbour Freight style belt sander at the Hartford symposium. These look like a good way to go.
Knife makers all use belts to both shape and sharpen knives. These are very expensive. The cheapest I can find is Grizzley at about $475. The better machines run $700 to $1000 or more.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of a belt system?

Obviously the easy of changing grits is a plus. You could go from 60 grit all the way to a leather strop with just a 15 second or so swap of belts.
I would think belt life and expense might be an issue. Of course on a grinder the wheel wears so you need to compensate for the size if you are using jigs. On a belt sander the "wheel" or platen would never change so your jig settings would remain constant. Wheels typically cost from about $30 to $60. You can buy quite a few belts for that much.
Belts run cooler although they will still heat up a piece of metal in a hurry as I found out one day when grinding copper without gloves on. Man does that heat travel up the tube fast.
Depending on where you sharpen on a belt sander you could have a flat bevel instead of concave. Is this an advantage or disadvantage? With very short bevels like some people use nowadays this might not be an issue at all. In fact some like convex bevels like Johannes Michelson's grind. I believe his could be sharpened just as well on a belt.
 
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You would want the belt running away from the edge, lest you slow it up and pile that grit into what you've been trying to form. Limits you a bit in your selection. Of course the speed of the sander is not an issue, unless you're talking about potential for edge damage if you dump it in by accident. Friction is a constant, like gravity, as long as pressure and coefficient of friction (grit) are maintained.

The wood does not know how much air is between it and the steel, so hollow grind is meaningless. Convex grind can be your friend when rolling the tool to dig out an interior, or your enemy as it crushes the fiber when you really wanted to turn tightly and make a finish cut. I use different gouges for the two jobs and avoid all conflict.

Only other thing I can see that keeps me at the wheel rather than the belt is that with the wheel the gouge sharpens as if you were turning wood. Same set of eye and muscle movements, and the same tactile feedback. I like to keep the toolrest on the grinder in the same relative position as the toolrest on the lathe to make things even easier for this freehander.
 
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No hollow grind

so honing is, I think, impractical. I hone several times between grindings, so a belt sharpener would mean more jig setups and more sessions at the grinder.

That said, I have used old 3" belt grinders on a shop made fixture as a safe cheap alternative for young turners, and it does the job just fine. The belt lasts a long time if you use a jig and just refresh the edge. See HERE. So the setup is easier to pack with me, safer for young turners, and with a garage sale sander cheaper. But it takes time to design and make the fixture for different styles of sanders.

Altho I haven't done it you could use a very high grit to get close to a honed edge for critical work.

Overall It feels comfortable and it works. But I still use my grinder by preference.
 
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Lee Valley have a sander sharpener without a motor for under $100 if I remember right. Once you have it setup, yes you could create a fine edge easily, but the tradeoff is the flat ground bevel that would not allow for easy repeatable honing.

I was considereing the old mk1 sharpening system Lee Valley had, now that my wife and I are expecting our first child I expect my tool fund will end up at fisher price.
 
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I don't think it's necessary to have the belt running away from the edge, although it's safer that way. With the belt running toward the edge, you can observe the sparks spilling over to know when to stop, same as with a wheel.

A belt sander dedicated to sharpening is beyond my means, and I don't have enough shop space for separate machinery anyway. All of my belt sanders came from garage sales, two hand-held and one benchtop (usually on the floor), none more than $50 IIRC. One caveat is to select a belt size with more universal supply; some sizes are nearly proprietary, and hard to find.

+1 for using the same position for sharpening as for turning. I sharpen freehand too, but I can almost duplicate the motion of a jig. And none of the jigs sprang to life in their final form, either; they climbed the same hill I'm climbing.
 

AlanZ

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Just a little added information. Many knifemakers use belt grinders to shape and sharpen the blades. The belt runs towards the toolrest and the edge of the stock. I have had no problems with this configuration (belt running over either a flat platen or a hard rubber wheel)
 

john lucas

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Alan I was aware of the knife sanders running towards the blade. The Carvers that I know who use belt sanders have the belt running up. I'll have to ask my knife maker friend who teaches metal. Maybe he'll have an answer. I think grinding fine edges with the belt running up would be a lot safer.
I do agree about the flat bevel but then I don't hone anything but the skew. I remove so little metal when sharpening and it's just as quick as honing.
I'm also shortening the length of my bevels on all my tools and grinding away what's at the bottom of the bevel. I don't really have a concave area with two high spots to support the hone.
 
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I don't think it's necessary to have the belt running away from the edge, although it's safer that way. With the belt running toward the edge, you can observe the sparks spilling over to know when to stop, same as with a wheel.

I agree with Joe here and also there can be a feather edge left as the belt leaves the tool, less likely when coming down onto the tool

A belt sander dedicated to sharpening is beyond my means, and I don't have enough shop space for separate machinery anyway. All of my belt sanders came from garage sales, two hand-held and one benchtop (usually on the floor), none more than $50 IIRC. One caveat is to select a belt size with more universal supply; some sizes are nearly proprietary, and hard to find.

Also I see it as great expense that I cant justify. Although they can produce a fine edge.

+1 for using the same position for sharpening as for turning. I sharpen freehand too, but I can almost duplicate the motion of a jig. And none of the jigs sprang to life in their final form, either; they climbed the same hill I'm climbing.

:D Yep been a free hand grinder for 30 odd years, although I have picked up a Woodcut grinding jig for a song. I have as yet to set it up its on the gonna-do list.
 
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Just a little added information. Many knifemakers use belt grinders to shape and sharpen the blades. The belt runs towards the toolrest and the edge of the stock. I have had no problems with this configuration (belt running over either a flat platen or a hard rubber wheel)

The two commercial places south of here grind away. Probably no big deal if you don't mind sparks in your face, but, as indicated, a loose(ning) belt can grab ya.

You're going to strop going away anyway.
 
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Belt sander sharpening

I looked at several of the new belt sanders displayed in Hartford and was very interested until I found out there was no way one can sharpen a bowl gauge with an Ellsworth grind.
 

john lucas

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I don't know why not. I rigged up an attachment to my belt sander to let me use a V block. Then I used the Wolverine jig on it. I don't know if I still have that rig. I have a new 2" belt sander. I'll see if I have it and rig it up to my new sander and show you how it can be done. My new sander is high speed and only runs down toward the edge.
I'm guessing we would want to use the ceramic belts for this. I only have wood cutting belts for my new sander since that's what I bought it for.
 
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They work very well

I have been seduced and convinced by Jon Siegel. He was at Hartford selling his belt sander setup. I sat in on a small group of turners in the spring when we discussed sharpening and the various options. Johannes Michelson and Jon were both there. Johannes discussed his grind, Jon his belt sander, and I went through the benefits of a vari-grind. I came away from that meeting with one of Jon's machines and have changed all of my gouges to the Johannes grind.

Benefits of the the sander is it is really fast for spindle gouges, roughing gouges, skews and parting tools. Jon sells it with the indexed positions in a flat board that ensures exact repeatable grinds, so once the tool is sharpened, resharpening takes seconds. You can use a fine grit, so get a better edge, and he has a buffing wheel attached so you can remove the bur in a second. Johannes did not like the fact that the sparks did not come over the edge (belt move away from you), so he was unsure when the tool was sharp with his grind. I have been using it for my gouges, and it can be done with a little care. I am not as quick as Johannes, but it doesn't take me long and it works fine. The way the machine comes, it is a flat board which stuck out into my shop and was in the way when trying free-hand grinding like the Johannes grind. I solved that by cutting the indexing board, installing a piano hinge and a hinged support. Only takes seconds to set it up or down. If you want to use a jig for an Elsworth grind (or the vari-grind) you can do that too with the arm he attached (see photo). On top of all that, this works great to sharpen bench chisels and plane irons as well. Jon has really thought it through.

I'm convinced this is a better way to sharpen than a grinder. You don't have the hazard of breathing the wheel dust, it is cooler on the steel, faster to set up (the numbers on the board correspond to indexing, and I mark each tool handle with the position used for sharpening), eats less steel and has built in buff/strop to remove a wire edge.

I still have a couple of grinders and use one with dedicated tables for sharpening scrapers and the other for anything I can't do with the belt sander, especially shaping a tool.
 

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Sander looks a lot like this one

HERE with a buffing wheel adapted in place of the disk sander. I would think a sliding arm could be easily adapted and indexed without the custom machined fixtures and large extension as I have done with the portable sander shown below.

But I agree with Botho that you can't do a long side grind with a jig because the width of the 4" sander belt and the sander mechanism interferes with the swing needed by a wolverine fingernail jig. THIS picture of the Big Tree fingernail grind seems to confirm this limitation.

I think a 1" belt sander such as THIS one would allow the Elsworth type grind.

After all this I am not sure I see a big overall advantage of a sander, apart from cleanliness, avoiding dressing a wheel, and safety, over say 60 and 120 grit al ox wheels. Anyway, after trying both systems that is the conclusion I have come to. And hand honing a wheel ground tool when needed just takes a few seconds right at the lathe.
 

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Peter Haney

A friend gave me, 30 yrs ago, his grandfather's delta belt sander. 2 5/8" wide belt. I never used it, till, I saw the Sorby rig. I adapted a Tormek bench grinder set. The various grinds are no problem. 80 grit polishes and gives a flat face. For a 50 yr old tool it was cheaper by a good $450.
 

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john lucas

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I discussed belt sander with my friend who is a custom knife maker and also teaches jewelry making, blacksmithing and other metal art at the Appalachian Center for Crafts.
I specifically asked about the belt direction. He said it shouldn't matter at all although most people who only sharpen knives 9which he took to mean basically honing not grinding the bevel) did so with the wheels or belts running up the bevel not from the edge down. He said that many knife builder just keep using the belt in the tip down fashion because that's how the grind them and the muscle memory is there so you can continue to refine the edge.
He said the wire edge created depends on the type of steel rather than the direction of the belt. Soft steels will have one no matter which direction the belt runs and harder steels won't.
 
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Tried the new General belt sharpener last year, and ..

... found that the bevel is more rounded over rather than flat when the belt is running into the cutting edge. This did not produce as sharp an edge as when running away from the cutting edge.
 
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A really nice article on jigs and setup

HERE from Laymar Crafts. Two parts to the article on setting up and using a generic belt sander.
 
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The oldest power tool in my shop is a Delta 1 inch belt sander with a floor stand. I've been using the sander for some of my sharpening ever since I bought it in 1949.

I've found that when I'm reshaping a tool I can remove metal much faster than on a wheel, and it doesn't heat the metal as much. That was very important back in the pre-HSS days. I use it with the belt running in the normal direction. I recommend using blue zircon belts. They cost about the same as alum. oxide and they will outlast them by several times. For most reshaping I use 60 grit but have used 40 grit. I don't use a jig or do my regular touch up sharpening on the sander. The sander has worked well for me for a long time.

A lot of commercial tool sharpening shops use belt sanders.

Wally
 

john lucas

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Wally I was born in 1949. :) I picked up an old strip sander with stand this summer. It needs a platen behind the belt. I did clean up the sander. It takes 2 different lengths of belts. I'm not sure why they would do that. I may take it off the stand. It takes up too much room in my shop.
 
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Wally I was born in 1949. :) I picked up an old strip sander with stand this summer. It needs a platen behind the belt. I did clean up the sander. It takes 2 different lengths of belts. I'm not sure why they would do that. I may take it off the stand. It takes up too much room in my shop.

Belt lengths: "Why" is anybody's guess. "How" is the more interesting question. Do you have a brand and model number? (For hunting at Old Woodworking Machines). Or otherwise can you explain the mechanism?
 

john lucas

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Joe I'll shoot a photo tonight. It just has one extra pulley sitting higher than the other one. What would be handy is to take either 1" short belts or 2" longer belts. It doesn't have that option darnit. That would be handy. I have 3 belt sanders. One 2" and with this old one, two 1 inch. It sure would be nice to have 2 of the same width with different grits side by side. It's pretty quick changing belts but not that quick.
 
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OverKill

I'm currently building a 2HP belt grinder for 2" x 72" sanding belts. I make a bunch of my own tools and this was a cheaper option than buying one. Well that is the theory anyway. I'm also going to use it for sharpening my gouges and will be putting together jigs. Currently I'm using a Delta grinder and my Tormek. I'll post pictures when finished if anyone is interested.
Bill
 

john lucas

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Here is a photo of the sander. It is made by Belsaw. I'm not sure if the roller just below the belt is supposed to support the belt or another size belt. The second roller from the top is not the tension idler. The whole top arm tensions so you can run the belt like I have, or over the top pulley. Then you could run it over the top pulley and the one on the back upright. Or you could run it on the lower top pulley and back upright. So there are at least 3 positions for belts of different lengths. Since it doesn't have a platten I'm guessing that the two pulleys closes to the table are there to stiffen the belt.
 

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AlanZ

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My wife uses an 8" slow speed bench grinder with a Wolverine jig,

I use a Bader III 2x72" belt grinder (originally purchased for knife making) with a Nova Sharp Center jig.

Perhaps this photo of my setup might give you some ideas for a belt grinder configuration. Hope this is useful.
 

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Belsaw

The wheel directly below the table seems to be a tensioning idler. The ultimate purpose of the others is a mystery. And it looks like it could accommodate four different belt lengths altogether; possibly more by swapping wheels here and there. The large wheel at the bottom appears to be the driver.

Without a platen, I don't think it would be suitable for sharpening chisels. OWWM has a 1933 catalog, but it doesn't include this tool.

Are there any patent numbers listed on the badge? Sometimes that's the only clue about some weird tools I've collected.
 
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USPTO reports 86 hits with "belt sander" in the title field. Text search goes only as far back as 1976 IIRC. Adding "belsaw" to the assignee field reduces the hits to zero.

Class 451/355 (which seems to be dominant) has 248 hits from all patents issued. FWIW.
 
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Here is a photo of the sander. It is made by Belsaw. I'm not sure if the roller just below the belt is supposed to support the belt or another size belt. The second roller from the top is not the tension idler. The whole top arm tensions so you can run the belt like I have, or over the top pulley. Then you could run it over the top pulley and the one on the back upright. Or you could run it on the lower top pulley and back upright. So there are at least 3 positions for belts of different lengths. Since it doesn't have a platten I'm guessing that the two pulleys closes to the table are there to stiffen the belt.

since the upper pulley and the pulley next to it are different sizes , switching between them will change the belt speed
 
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speed

Ray. The bottom pulley is the driven pulley & determines the speed. The only way to change the speed would be to change the v-belt pulleys. It is a strange looking setup!
R0n.
 
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Ray. The bottom pulley is the driven pulley & determines the speed. The only way to change the speed would be to change the v-belt pulleys. It is a strange looking setup!
R0n.

the v-belt turn the driven pulley which is on a shaft, the driving wheel mounts on the shaft other end, changing the driving wheel size will change the sand paper belt speed also but this is not what I meant, will the sanding belt last as long if you change to a smaller wheel ?
 

john lucas

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I turned these last night to repair the broken pulleys on my small sander. The reason I'm posting this is that the outside curved surface was turned by hand with my Thompson detail gouge. I'm not a machinist and this is the best way I know to get a curved surface on non ferrous metals. This is where the steel in the Thompson gouges really stands out. I had to turn several pieces for an artist friend who needed aluminum pieces with gentle curves to put with his glass. I would have to sharpen my HSS spindle gouges 3 or 4 times to get one good curve. I turned 2 complete pieces with the Thompson gouge before it needed sharpening.
 

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Damn John!!

First - those sander parts look like they've been CNC'd....you've got to be a closet machinist...

Second - that photo looks like one stolen from a commercial parts catalog. Photographing shiny metal is pretty hard and you obviously make it look easy....

Third - I've also used a Thompson gouge to shape aluminum for a miniature scale collet-based workholding system I'm developing. Worked like a charm.

Thanks for sharing this kind of information!

Rob
 

john lucas

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They are not identical but I did the best job I could. I'm getting better. These have almost the same feel when I slide the bearing in. That's much better than my previous attempts. I'm fighting 2 things. I'm having to learn how to tune up a lathe that was not taken care of and then I'm having to learn how to do the cuts.
The photography was super easy. Usually I set up all sorts of lights and refelectors for something like this and the photos do look better. For this one I just balanced the color for the flourescents in the studio and shot it straight. I did pay particular attention to the exposure but that's all.
This shot of my knife is more typical of what I can do when I try.
 

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Belt grits for sharpening?

I've been digging through these threads for discussion of belt types and grits. Fellow above recommends blue zircon belts, what other choices? How do you use different grits, if you do use more than one? What is best grit for on-going belt sharpening of tools that are in good shape to start. Touching up the edge then back to the lathe.

And can anybody compare honing with buffing? by honing I mean a fine and small secondary bevel achieved by hand with 600 and 1200 diamond stones, I use flat Norton-brand waterstones, any burr inside a gouge wipes off with a slender round diamond waterstones. I come at this from furniture and general woodworking, that honing is second nature and takes seconds. I hone several times between grindings, including scrapers. Can anybody compare this kind of edge with a buffed edge? Which is sharper, which lasts longer?

Thanks in advance!
 

john lucas

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This is an old thread :) I used a 3" Sears belt sander for several years to sharpen tools. About 120 grit does an excellent job. I never bothered to change grits although at first I did experiment to see what was optimum for me. I used the too straight off the sander most of the time but occasionally used a diamond hone to refine the edge.
One tip if you do this. Remove the cloth dust collection bag. Otherwise yours will have tiny holes burned in it like mine does. :)
I stopped using it because it was so noisy and then sometimes I still need it for flat work. This was before I learned about the blue zirconium belts and I wore out the belts fairly fast which is also why I changed over to a grinder.
 
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John,
I have a 2x72 2hp belt grinder that has the Wolverine jig set up. I have the 8" contact wheel and a flat platen. I've used 60 through 120 grit norton belts. It put's a really nice edge on the v10 and v15 tools that I have. I also have HSS and 2030 and 2060 tools all sharpen well. But... I really was not happy with the edge durability. This is JUST my opinion ONLY while the edge was sharp it seemed to dull quicker than those sharpened on a wheel. I have not done a real comparison so this is purely subjective. I use an 80 and 180 grit CBN wheel and am very happy with the edge and durability. I use a 600 grit diamond hone also, although mostly on my skews. I had the belt moving toward the tool so maybe I should try reversing the motor and the edge would be better, but I just wasn't impressed that the belt sander was better.
 

john lucas

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Bill I don't think a belt sander is necessarilly better at least with my limited experience with one. I know my Knive maker friends all use belts to shape and sharpen the knives so obviously there is something to it.
I think belt sanding is a good alternative to beginners who may own a small belt sander and not a decent grinder.
I do now have a smaller 2" belt sander that I use for shaping metal. It's not one of the good Knive sanders. I did sharpen my Thompson gouge on it one day and seemed to do a fine job. Don't remember which belt I used and it certainly wasn't any kind of serious experimentation. I was just playing.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
231
Likes
2
Location
Apopka, FL
Website
www.docwks.com
I agree I just don't find the sanding belts better than a good wheel. I'm not giving up my belt grinder, mind. I use it to make tool rests and all kinds of toys. It cuts through steel like butter. One thing I do sharpen on it is my draw knives, I can put a razor edge on one and then power strop it, it's beautiful. But I'm very happy with my Delta and CBN wheels for my turning tools.
 
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