• Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details)
  • Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Paul May for "Checkerboard (ver 3.0)" being selected as Turning of the Week for March 25, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Going forward?

Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
110
Likes
77
Website
www.AndiWolfe.com
The discussions that took place during the firestorm have been moved to a nonpublic archive. While I'm in agreement that this is a course for moving on to the future, I do think it removes some history that is important to have available to AAW members. I'd like to see this archive made available in the members only area.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
Messages
204
Likes
0
Location
Red Oak, Texas
John, At one point we were assured the posts would remain available and not be removed. Healing is not done by rewriting history and pretending actions never took place.
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,592
Likes
4,888
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Andi,

I support removing those threads. I question the historical value since so many threads contain mis-information and exaggerations.

I realize this is at odds with my belief that our school children should get the objective history and current science not some school board's idea of history and science.

what is best for the AAW?
-Al
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
110
Likes
77
Website
www.AndiWolfe.com
Scholarly instinct

Al,

I think it is best that the posts are not out there for public (i.e., non-members) consumption, but I'm considering the archival value from my academic background. The forum was a slice of reality for how people react to situations in the internet age of instant gratification. The misinformation, rumors, distrust, disgruntlement, and general negativity, as well as the flip side of that coin, helped to shape the AAW of the future. The context is important, I think.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
143
Likes
0
Location
Torrance California
The postings were an articulate and sometimes messy discourse that expressed the feelings of the membership on both sides of the issues. There was a fair rendering of the facts as both sides saw them.

Removing the posts completely, covers the historical tracks of a difficult time in the history of the AAW.

Andi's idea of the posts being quartered in the members area is an acceptable alternative to leaving them where they were.

The moderators are independent of the BoD and can make this decision on their own.

Curtis Thompson
#15049
 
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
133
Likes
0
Location
Georgia
While, at times, some of the posts may have contained misinformation from both sides of the aisle . . . they do hold much information that is pertinent to the future direction of our organization. Within the posts is some very valuable information related to possible bylaws revisions.

From an academician's viewpoint, removing the posts may be thought as "revisionist history".

One might also consider their removal as another step along the way of Big Brother squashing open discussion.

And now . . . for another post from Ron accusing me of rabble rousing. ;)
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
2,051
Likes
352
Location
Martinsville, VA
the removed posts might be made available to members in say 10 years time, while not classifide, we hopefully will be able to smile at all this
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
202
Likes
1
Location
West Palm Beach , Florida
tapes missing

I guess they have to go through and erase parts of the tape like back in the 70's
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
Messages
204
Likes
0
Location
Red Oak, Texas
One Directors Way To Go Forward

I have stated before that if I received improper emails I would not hesitate to post them.

I sent this email to the BOD with a copy to John.

The recent controversy was and is still very divisive. However, it is now a part of AAW and will have an impact on the future. By removing the topics history is being distorted and at least in my mind does just the opposite of healing. I don't know how the BOD interacts with the web team but I urge each of you to do what it takes to have these topic messages restored.

Stuart Johnson
Red Oak, Texas
AAW # 22479


Here is one of the answers:

Dear Mr. Johnson,

It is indeed unfortunate that these posts have been removed, because now you will not be able to drag out arguments on old threads. You will have to
start new arguments, which will be extra mental effort.

Alternatively, you could start an argument with yourself. But that might be
a lose/lose proposition.

Malcolm Zander


What a wonderful way to respond Mr. Zander.
 
Joined
Jul 3, 2004
Messages
310
Likes
0
Location
Henderson Kentucky
Website
www.seantroy.com
I have stated before that if I received improper emails I would not hesitate to post them.

I sent this email to the BOD with a copy to John.

The recent controversy was and is still very divisive. However, it is now a part of AAW and will have an impact on the future. By removing the topics history is being distorted and at least in my mind does just the opposite of healing. I don't know how the BOD interacts with the web team but I urge each of you to do what it takes to have these topic messages restored.

Stuart Johnson
Red Oak, Texas
AAW # 22479


Here is one of the answers:

Dear Mr. Johnson,

It is indeed unfortunate that these posts have been removed, because now you will not be able to drag out arguments on old threads. You will have to
start new arguments, which will be extra mental effort.

Alternatively, you could start an argument with yourself. But that might be
a lose/lose proposition.

Malcolm Zander


What a wonderful way to respond Mr. Zander.

Malcolm must be off his meds again
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Messages
1,224
Likes
1,135
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
Very informative and right to the heart of how he feels as well. I guess this whole thing is a joke to some of you.

Stuart,

Hardly a joke - you and a few others have gone far out of your way to make many good-intentioned and giving volunteer's lives miserable over the past couple months. To find a little humor in anything associated with this is considered by me to be a welcomed reprieve.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
101
Likes
0
Location
New Mexico
The deletions have been a good lesson for me, in the future I will be sure to use copy and paste to keep my own record of the history of controversial issues. I would recommend others that want to see the history of the AAW preserved to do the same.
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
201
Likes
13
Location
Torrance, CA
I have stated before that if I received improper emails I would not hesitate to post them.

I sent this email to the BOD with a copy to John.

The recent controversy was and is still very divisive. However, it is now a part of AAW and will have an impact on the future. By removing the topics history is being distorted and at least in my mind does just the opposite of healing. I don't know how the BOD interacts with the web team but I urge each of you to do what it takes to have these topic messages restored.

Stuart Johnson
Red Oak, Texas
AAW # 22479


Here is one of the answers:

Dear Mr. Johnson,

It is indeed unfortunate that these posts have been removed, because now you will not be able to drag out arguments on old threads. You will have to
start new arguments, which will be extra mental effort.

Alternatively, you could start an argument with yourself. But that might be
a lose/lose proposition.

Malcolm Zander


What a wonderful way to respond Mr. Zander.

Is this the healing that I've heard so much about. It would seem Mr Zander would love nothing more than pick at the scab. It also appears Mr. Zander puts himself on a higher mental plane than us the regular AAW members. In some of my posts before the sub-forum shutdown I was very dismissive of Mr. Zander for which I was rebuked by another AAW member who was very upset with me. I apologized to Mr. Zander because I posted in anger and that is not a good thing to do. I believe Mr. Zander was extremely dismissive of Mr. Johnson and in extension all AAW members. This is not how a director should be responding to emails of any member. If the BOD truly wants healing this is not the way to go about it. I believe this is called fanning the flames and adding gasoline. Please Mr. Zander apologize.
 
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
10
Likes
0
Location
Lubbock, TX
Removing the wild discussions of past few weeks from the archives is, I submit, an error.
1. It creates an Achilles heel for criticism of the organization.
2. It allows for distorted versions to be repeated without the simple defense of "go read it yourself.

If we are going to be an organization that does not allow for free and open discussion of ideas, no matter how passionately they are argued, then the MAG group or anyone else has already scored a point in the next round.

It is obvious that most members do not follow the forums, but the whisper of censorship, which removing the discussions will be described as just that, may prolong and distort the original dispute.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Messages
371
Likes
0
Location
SE Kansas
Stuart,

Hardly a joke - you and a few others have gone far out of your way to make many good-intentioned and giving volunteer's lives miserable over the past couple months. To find a little humor in anything associated with this is considered by me to be a welcomed reprieve.

Ed; brother you CAN'T be serious.. Humor!!! I was booted from the forum two years ago for comments such as those. I was wrong then, am I wrong now?
 
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
32
Likes
0
Location
Michigan
Just Wondering

Stuart,

Hardly a joke - you and a few others have gone far out of your way to make many good-intentioned and giving volunteer's lives miserable over the past couple months. To find a little humor in anything associated with this is considered by me to be a welcomed reprieve.

How are the Lacers doing these days????
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
628
Likes
2
Location
Northwest Arkansas
Gary,
Just a little clarification - you were not 'booted' from the Forum. You were simply given a warning, a significant difference. But as you can clearly see from this instance, humor can be interpreted both positively and negatively. I guess it depends on the receiving end to some extent!:D
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
75
Likes
0
Location
ID
I believe the threads should be made available for viewing in a "Members Only" area.

Those type of discussions should have taken place in a Members Only area in the first place. There is no logical argument for holding those types of heated discussions in the view of the general public and there is no logical or reasonable argument that "Non-Members" should be allowed to participate.

For the future good of the organization, those threads should be available for Members Only viewing as a reminder and record of what can happen when little forethought is given to decisions made by elected officials.

Nothing good will come of hiding them. Not having them available will only spread more distrust. Pretending they didn't happen or trying to hide them will retard the healing of the organization not quicken it.
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Messages
1,224
Likes
1,135
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
Ken,

I want to be clear about this – the Board had zero input in taking those 6/21 through 8/10 posts down. As I’ve stated before, I regret having allowed this free-wheeling us-versus-them discussion to start in the first place. And now that the principals have made peace, including a joint call for all to bury the hatchet and look forward, it is my intent to do everything I can to get this nasty episode behind us. Some will call it censorship, others will say that misdeeds are being swept under the rug – frankly, I’m happy to wear all of that if it moves us to a better place.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
75
Likes
0
Location
ID
Ed,

With all due respect Sir, I have a right to have a differing opinion.

Those threads provided evidence of a organization that was and still is dysfunctional. The fact that a quick committee was set up to rewrite the by-laws is evidence of the validity of those threads.

Close them by all means but there is no logical reason to remove them from the view of the membership.

Removing them will only hinder the healing of the organization by continuing to spread the distrust between those in power and those who believe the power is being abused.

Just my opinion Sir, as one member to another.
 
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
133
Likes
0
Location
Georgia
Ken,

I want to be clear about this – the Board had zero input in taking those 6/21 through 8/10 posts down. As I’ve stated before, I regret having allowed this free-wheeling us-versus-them discussion to start in the first place. And now that the principals have made peace, including a joint call for all to bury the hatchet and look forward, it is my intent to do everything I can to get this nasty episode behind us. Some will call it censorship, others will say that misdeeds are being swept under the rug – frankly, I’m happy to wear all of that if it moves us to a better place.


You're sending mixed signals, Ed. I don't get it. One minute your mocking a MAG member with a taunting joke regarding Malcolm Zander's email . . . and then a few hours later you're acting as though you're a oneman peace maker. For me, personally, it's hard to switch gears so quickly . . . especially if you want to do all of the driving on your own. To be honest with you, I don't see how it could be any one person's responsibility to make a decision with such magnitude as the one you made regarding taking the posts down. Furthermore, you, yourself, are using the word censorship. This isn't exactly what I intended my AAW dues to be used for. If you'll recall, some school board members once banned Anne Frank's Diary because it was "too depressing for students". It may sound far fetched to you . . . but, your decision to censor does have a parallel with that school board's decision.

Just my uncensored two cents worth.
 
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
2,557
Likes
25
Location
Annandale, New Jersey
Ken,

It's my understanding that the By-laws rewrite has been under discussion for some time as has the establishment of a Unified Code of Ethics. This is not a reaction to the events of June 21st. That storm may have brought it front & center and pushed for it to start sooner, but that's about it.

Peace
 

John Van Domelen

Retired Forum Admin
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
340
Likes
1
Location
Houston, TX
agreed

The decision was mine to make, I have the stones to face the consequences of my actions and will repeat what Ed stated above by saying that no one asked me to do it.

I am in agreement with Ed. I can see no further useful purpose in leaving the posts up on this forum.

That said - nothing has been deleted. The posts are archived. If in some years time someone were to request access to write a history of the AAW, that would certainly be possible.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
1,039
Likes
138
Location
Ormond Beach FL
Website
turnedbygeorge.com
The discussions that took place during the firestorm have been moved to a nonpublic archive. While I'm in agreement that this is a course for moving on to the future, I do think it removes some history that is important to have available to AAW members. I'd like to see this archive made available in the members only area.

It's a new world - I agree with Andi!
I've been away, but watching... Seems like things are not much better for most of us, in one way or another.

I'll admit, I'm ashamed of a couple of my posts, but removing them all is a big mistake (IMHO).
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
201
Likes
13
Location
Torrance, CA
It's a new world - I agree with Andi!
I've been away, but watching... Seems like things are not much better for most of us, in one way or another.

I'll admit, I'm ashamed of a couple of my posts, but removing them all is a big mistake (IMHO).

Welcome back George!:)
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
75
Likes
0
Location
ID
With all due respect,

I am not questioning any body's right, privilege or ability to remove those threads from viewing. No offense guys, having stones or implied courage has nothing to do with it.

I am disagreeing with reasoning or logic behind it.

Whether or not the current by-law committee was being discussed prior to the recent incident is questionable too. I would suggest that the recent incident had much more to do with the current process than anything prior.

Trying to deny or ignore that those threads ever happened will not help heal this organization. It will only spread distrust.

It is apparent that to try argue this with anyone at this website will be a lesson in futility and I will post no more about the subject.

I still feel as a member I have a right to disagree.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
106
Likes
0
Location
Wichita Kansas
Save it with access

Unusal, find I agree with Andi. While I doubt the material will be viewed very often, I do believe it should be available for review--I do not know about anyone else, but for me the exercise was a rewarding learning process, and I hope as well as for others that should have learned a good deal about the members of AAW.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
361
Likes
2
Location
Hawi, Hawaii
Website
www.kellydunnwoodturner.com
John, if you were to stand before congress and wish to use terms that would make it into the newspapers no problem perhaps consider the term testitudical fortitude instead of stones. Stones has testostorone all over it. You get bashed for that one. But the term testitudical fortitude makes them think. And its polite in less than blunt terms to let anyone know. You got the stones.
 

John Van Domelen

Retired Forum Admin
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
340
Likes
1
Location
Houston, TX
No hormonal under current intended. :D

I was merely trying to nip any conspiracy theories in the bud and own my actions.

Thanks for the tip - sorry if I was being indelicate.
 
Last edited:

AlanZ

Resident Techno Geek
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
533
Likes
228
Location
Oradell, NJ
I add my voice to those who think removing the messages is a mistake. Removing the messages may have been well intentioned, but I do not think it is appropriate. Given the history, it provides a valuable context for taking steps to move forward in a better way.
 
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
1
Likes
0
Location
Oklahoma
Do I understand this correctly? It is up to just a couple of members whether the other members (or nonmembers) have easy access to the comments about various topics? Surely not the case.
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,592
Likes
4,888
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Charles,

The forum is run by the forum moderators.

It is like many activities that the AAW undertakes. Steve and maybe a few others had this idea for a forum. They presented it to the board with a promise to run it. The board approved it.

The board can pull the plug by turning off the site or turning off sub forums.

The board trusts the moderators to run the forum.
The moderators are volunteers spending countless hours working for the AAW providing the service.

Other examples of activities members have produced recently are
On-line Journals proposed by John Hill and Ed Davidson
Youth program at the symposium - Bonnie Klein and Nick Cook
youth program on the web - DaveBowers

-Al
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
202
Likes
1
Location
West Palm Beach , Florida
Your decision

Well in a democratic society I think it should be voted on if the post should stay or get archived. Didn't know it was a dictatorship. Going to find it hard to post here in the future.:confused:
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,592
Likes
4,888
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
timothy,

it is a benevolent dictatorship.

The moderators post the rules and they police the forum.

The AAW moderators are more forgiving than say WOW.

In the end I just have to trust people or I simply can't survive.

-Al
 
Back
Top