• Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details)
  • Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Paul May for "Checkerboard (ver 3.0)" being selected as Turning of the Week for March 25, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Bylaws, what would you change?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
102
Likes
4
Location
Collierville, TN
Website
www.flyingcurls.com
First let me say that I am not trying to add fuel to the fire with this
post. There has been a lot of discussion about the Bylaws needing
revisions. What exactly do you want to change or add. Please be as
specific as you can with your wording, not just a statement like "We
should return control to the members". I am not a lawyer nor do I ever
want to be, but maybe it will help to get some specific ideas.
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
183
Likes
0
In no particular order

1.) The process of electing people to the BoD should be open to any and all comers- no committee necessary. If 20 people want to run, then 20 people are on the ballot. Just like in America. Top three vote getters are elected.

2.) The Board should not be able to vote out another Board Member. If they feel that there is an issue with a Board member, they should make it known to membership, and the membership votes the Board member out, and his or her replacement in.

3.) The Bylaws should include governance structure for the ED role. As an example, what level of "financial acumen" is required and where the ED needs to seek Board approval. It could be as simple as "anything that costs more than $25 needs to be approved by the Treasury committee, things over $1000 require board approval'.

4.) The Board should be required to take detailed minutes of their meetings. The f2f meetings should be coordinated to occur with future site visits to prospective venues for national symposiums and the current year's symposium since the AAW is already incurring the expense. Everything else should be done via WebEx and Skype or similar internet based technology, which should be paid by the AAW in lieu of travel.

5.) The Board should be required to function transparently within itself and to the membership. If something comes up that requires discussion and a vote, it should be recorded as such for the membership to see. A voting record lets everyone know where people truly stand on the issues.

I could go on and on, but I'll let other chime in...
 
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
384
Likes
8
Questions for Steve

Steve,
As editor of the journal, I have a question about procedure for your first point. Currently the six candidates' photos and statements are included in the journal. Those statements and photos take up three pages (two per page). So, if there were, say, 20 candidates, that would take 40 pages in the journal, providing each candidate were to receive the same amount of space.

The election is a critical process for the AAW and some have suggested that more lengthy statements be provided. (The number of words are limited now because of space considerations.)

What would you suggest as a way to procedurally implement your point number one? (And I'm not saying it's not a good idea . . . I'm just looking for more information, as an editorial concern.)

Betty Scarpino, editor, American Woodturner
 
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Messages
149
Likes
0
Location
Hanover, MD
Keith,

I, for one, don't have any specific changes in mind. However, I do feel that periodic reviews and amendments should be done. Circumstances change and it could be beneficial to ensure that our by-laws are still fulfilling the needs of the organization. After all, the US Constitution has 27 amendments not the least of which is the first amendment. As a matter of history, prohibition was the 18th constitutional amendment and it was repealed by the 21st amendment, so even amendments can be amended...

The point is that reviewing our by-laws isn't to tear down or destroy the AAW (terms used in other threads), but to improve the organization and make it stronger and more responsive to ALL of the AAW membership.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
935
Likes
241
Location
Newberg, OR: 20mi SW of Portland: AAW #21058
2.) The Board should not be able to vote out another Board Member. If they feel that there is an issue with a Board member, they should make it known to membership, and the membership votes the Board member out, and his or her replacement in.

I would disagree with airing a board member's transgressions so that all could see and risk tainting that person's relationships outside of their board responsibilities.

However, I agree the current methodology is lacking and needs improvement. What about the Ethics committee (?) convene a special panel made up of general members and the committee's members for review and determination of the merits of the grievance against the board member? The names could be drawn from the member list and members sworn to confidentiality.

4.) The Board should be required to take detailed minutes of their meetings. The f2f meetings should be coordinated to occur with future site visits to prospective venues for national symposiums and the current year's symposium since the AAW is already incurring the expense. Everything else should be done via WebEx and Skype or similar internet based technology, which should be paid by the AAW in lieu of travel.

I agree with this as well. The Sept. 9, '09, meeting minutes contained only one or two items with only a motion, a second, and approval of the motion. But I noted that the meeting lasted on the order of 1 hour and 20 minutes - that's a lot of dead air time.

Call to Order
President Bill Haskell called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m.
Roll Call
Board members present: Bill Haskell, Frank Amigo, Dale Larson, Jean LeGwin, Binh Pho,
Cassandra Speier, Malcolm Tibbetts, Tom Wirsing, and Al Hockenbery.
Also present: Executive Director Mary Lacer, Editor Betty Scarpino and Caroline Lindval
(for meeting minutes).

Approval of June Symposium 2009 Board Meeting Minutes
Dale Larson made a motion to accept the meeting. Motion carried.

Malcolm Tibbetts made a motion to have a vendor discount program proceed and
reevaluate it if necessary.
Motion carried.

Tom Wirsing made a motion to adjourn. Motion carried. The meeting adjourned at
7:20 p.m.
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
935
Likes
241
Location
Newberg, OR: 20mi SW of Portland: AAW #21058
Currently the six candidates' photos and statements are included in the journal. Those statements and photos take up three pages (two per page). So, if there were, say, 20 candidates, that would take 40 pages in the journal, providing each candidate were to receive the same amount of space.

Betty, it's a good thing you're the editor and not the accountant! ;)

6 candidates is to 3 pages as 20 candidates is to 10 pages.

(My teachers told me that wording would come in handy some day!)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
1,039
Likes
138
Location
Ormond Beach FL
Website
turnedbygeorge.com
Steve,
As editor of the journal, I have a question about procedure for your first point. Currently the six candidates' photos and statements are included in the journal. Those statements and photos take up three pages (two per page). So, if there were, say, 20 candidates, that would take 40 pages in the journal, providing each candidate were to receive the same amount of space.

The election is a critical process for the AAW and some have suggested that more lengthy statements be provided. (The number of words are limited now because of space considerations.)

What would you suggest as a way to procedurally implement your point number one? (And I'm not saying it's not a good idea . . . I'm just looking for more information, as an editorial concern.)

Betty Scarpino, editor, American Woodturner

As a non profit, I think we have to spend the money anyway, if we need to spend it on extra pages rather than some other thing, and if it gets us a board that is responsive to a greater majority of the members, I'd be in favor of it. Setting aside the math, If there are 20 people who want to take a shot at this, let them each have a shot. I don't know what the existing criteria are for running for the board and getting through review, but make that the standard and reject only those who don't plainly don't meet that standard.
 
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
384
Likes
8
Math

Oop's! Thanks, Owen.

How about a supplement in the journal? Maybe that could be forty pages long :eek: ?

Betty Scarpino, editor (not accountant)
 
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
223
Likes
0
Location
Georgetown,KY
I have several sets of changes that have been made but not approved since a BOD meeting in Nov.2007, and supplied to me by BOD member Dale Larson. He has made a through study of this sequence of changes, and I submit should be considered as the first approach in revising the Bylaws in consideration of Dale's research. At present, the BOD has complete controll of Bylaw changes and considerations, and the membership should have a greater say in effecting proposed changes.
 
Joined
Dec 25, 2006
Messages
60
Likes
0
Location
Abilene, TX
By-Laws should prohibit collusion voting ~ i.e. Notification of Board Meetings should be sent out in writing two weeks in advance of the Board Meeting. Matters upon which votes are to be taken should be discussed face-to-face with all members present who choose to be so.

And, oh my, the example of the Minutes, I'd agree, Owen. Obviously the Board needs to elect a Secretary who actually knows how to take down Minutes of a Meeting.

Everything Steven outlined is very solid in terms of functional, healthy Board practices.

George, non-profits are allowed to have some savings/assets column in the budget if you will. Given it's been 5 years since I ran an agency, so I don't know the most current guidelines; but the IRS has the guidelines on how much a non-profit can accrue. It's not required that a 501(c)(3) organization spend all their money each year. And thank goodness it's not; when I retired, I left the agency in absolutely outstanding shape and with a solid and substantial financial cushion all within the IRS guidelines current at the time. Managing a non-profit well I was very good at, and one of the things a good manager does is put a little away for a rainy day for the organization, plan ahead.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
Messages
204
Likes
0
Location
Red Oak, Texas
Not By-laws but election process

I feel the ban on campaigning should be lifted. Set up a members only section for statements by the candidates. Include the ability to ask questions. Candidate to candidate discussion should be allowed but not member to member questions and statements. This would be hard to enforce so it would require some pretty heavy moderating.
 
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
223
Likes
0
Location
Georgetown,KY
Ron -the files are not in a format(typed) which can be emailed until they are scanned and studied for corrolation to the current Bylaws. I will make them available when Dale offers their release, as they are personal documents with notations only.
 
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Messages
36
Likes
0
These recommendations are intended to increase the transparency of the AAW Board actions and to improve the trust and linkage between the Board and the Chapters.

1. Sharing and better integration of the AAW Board and Chapter planning process. We have no access to the AAW Strategic or one year plans to know what are the major directions or challenges that the AAW Board is trying to accomplish in the one year and five year time frames. I have suggested that two months prior to the major AAW planning meeting, a solicitation letter in the form of a survey or questionnaire be sent to the Chapter Presidents for input regarding the major needs of the Chapters, upcoming issues that will impact them and trends that at the local level we feel the Board needs to be addressing in their planning process. I worked with two Chapeter Coordinators to develop a Chapter President's survey, which was conducted earlier this year, but never heard any results
2. I also requested access to the Board meeting minutes. I suggested that Ed Davidson create a Chapter Presidents secure area on the web where both the minutes and plans could be made available. I assumed that each of these Board meeting would include a review of performance against plan. Sharing of this performance evaluation would probably be enough to satisfy the objective and would keep personnel issues within the Board
3. I requested improved communication between the AAW Board and the Chapter Presidents. dale took this to heart and there was a significant improvement in the monthly newsletters, although commitment varies considerably from one Chapter Coordinator to the next. I also talked with the last Chapter Coordinator the concept of creating a quarterly phone in session, mimicking how a business does their quarterly performance reporting to stockholders. By this I mean a presentation from an AAW Board member as to the state of the AAW, financial, progress against plan objectives, upcoming issues, etc. and then open the floor to moderated questions.
4. I suggested that the calender of selecting the new Board members be shifted so that potential Board candidates could be presented at the Symposium. This would give people a chance to meet them and listen to a brief "campaign" speech, which would give us more insight that the bios that appear in the magazine.
5. It would also be great to do more promotion of the Chapter Meeting at the Symposium and have captured action items sent to participants. Input is given, but generally that input seems to end up in a "black hole". I think more promotion pf this meeting as the Chapters way of getting input to the AAW that will be responded to, will increase attendance and give good input.

Ed Malesky
 
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
223
Likes
0
Location
Georgetown,KY
You have made several valuable points here Ed, and I like the idea of candidates being available for interviews at the Symposiums. This sad sequence of recent events probably would have never occurred if transparency and communication among the BOD and membership had been more active, and it will rest with the membership stockholders to raise their voices to be heard. Retain these points as we move forward in revising the Bylaws.
 
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
102
Likes
4
Location
Collierville, TN
Website
www.flyingcurls.com
You have made several valuable points here Ed, and I like the idea of candidates being available for interviews at the Symposiums. This sad sequence of recent events probably would have never occurred if transparency and communication among the BOD and membership had been more active, and it will rest with the membership stockholders to raise their voices to be heard. Retain these points as we move forward in revising the Bylaws.

Jamie, please. I did not start this post to try and blame anyone for anything. My thought was for people to express their ideas on what changes they feel need to be made. To open a clear and concise dialog. There are enough political arguments going on in all the other threads.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
1,039
Likes
138
Location
Ormond Beach FL
Website
turnedbygeorge.com
You have made several valuable points here Ed, and I like the idea of candidates being available for interviews at the Symposiums. This sad sequence of recent events probably would have never occurred if transparency and communication among the BOD and membership had been more active, and it will rest with the membership stockholders to raise their voices to be heard. Retain these points as we move forward in revising the Bylaws.

The only downside to Symposium interviews is the "financial hardship" factor. If candidates could/would be subsidized, I would imagine that at least some would want to be candidates for that benefit alone.
On the other hand, HAVING to be at the Symposium in order to be considered a "serious" hardship could/would be an insurmountable hardship for many who might otherwise be perfectly acceptable candidates...

Aside from that, I like the idea too. Face to face works well for me.
 
Joined
May 21, 2004
Messages
397
Likes
1
Location
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Website
www.tahoeturner.com
There have many worthy Bylaw suggestions.

Regarding the election process, which I’ve gone through twice, I don’t feel that it needs a huge overhaul. It’s worked fairly well for many years. I do suggest however that the nominating committee be more independent from the existing board members. Existing boards should not have final approval regarding who is chosen for the board ballot. I don’t quite see why one of the three nominating committee members must be a sitting board member. I suggest that the committee positions be filled by past board members. Having three past board members on the committee provides the ability to answer the questions that prospective board members are likely to have and past members have the insight to select worthy candidates. Of course that could also lead to abuse as the past board members are likely to be friendly with current board members. Maybe the positions should be filled with past board members who have been out of office for at least two years. Just thinking out loud.
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
628
Likes
2
Location
Northwest Arkansas
"And, oh my, the example of the Minutes, I'd agree, Owen. Obviously the Board needs to elect a Secretary who actually knows how to take down Minutes of a Meeting." Judy Kingery

Jude,
Regarding your comment, Jean LeGwin is the Secretary, but the meeting notes are actually taken by Carol Lindval, AAW Staff. I would be really surprised if Carol's notes were published in their entirety, without a review by Jean. And then they are reviewed and accepted by the Board at their next meeting.

Just some info to round out your comment.:)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
Messages
204
Likes
0
Location
Red Oak, Texas
Information to Chapter Presidents Not Members

I'm fairly certain I'm not the only AAW member that is not a chapter member. So in that regard I feel all BOD information should be available at a members only section.

An example is the letter Tom sent to the chapter presidents. I feel this should have been posted where all could see it.
 
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
223
Likes
0
Location
Georgetown,KY
Jamie, please. I did not start this post to try and blame anyone for anything. My thought was for people to express their ideas on what changes they feel need to be made. To open a clear and concise dialog. There are enough political arguments going on in all the other threads.

Ease up Keith! I in no way made a biased statement about specific parties as much as the failures of the process involved. Those system failures should be addressed in the future discussions and revisions of Bylaws.
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Messages
1,224
Likes
1,135
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
Ease up Keith! I in no way made a biased statement about specific parties as much as the failures of the process involved. Those system failures should be addressed in the future discussions and revisions of Bylaws.

Jamie, you are truly the king of conspiracy theory and spin. Please give it a rest and let someone else talk for a while.
 
Joined
Dec 25, 2006
Messages
60
Likes
0
Location
Abilene, TX
"Jude,
Regarding your comment, Jean LeGwin is the Secretary, but the meeting notes are actually taken by Carol Lindval, AAW Staff. I would be really surprised if Carol's notes were published in their entirety, without a review by Jean. And then they are reviewed and accepted by the Board at their next meeting.

Just some info to round out your comment." Oops, meant to leave in your smile, too.

Hey Kurt, ok I appreciate it, yep, I did mean whoever was the Board Elect Secretary, not the AAW office Secretary, but I appreciate your clarification.

Again, generally, it's the elected Secretary of the Board who takes Minutes and with the exception of personnel matters; those are almost always closed matters, but any other Minutes are to be available to not only Members, but to the general public or anybody (IRS Codes for Non-Profits ~ unless that's changed drastically in the past five years since I read the IRS guidelines meticulously to be certain we complied). And yep, sometimes staff would take Minutes, but it truly is the Elected Secretary's job, not the staff's job. And they should indeed be detailed enough to know who said what and how things transpire. Sure thing, reviewed by and voted on with the entire Board, then public. And yep, they, the entire Minutes, not a synopsis, but ALL of the Minutes are a matter of public record for non-profit organizations, details and all, in their entirety, with the exception of closed session.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
1,039
Likes
138
Location
Ormond Beach FL
Website
turnedbygeorge.com
Jamie, you are truly the king of conspiracy theory and spin. Please give it a rest and let someone else talk for a while.

HEY!
I thought I had that title!
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Messages
1,224
Likes
1,135
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
Judy,

Regarding completeness of AAW Board meeting minutes, it's my ubderstanding that the Board follows Roberts Rules of Order, which states in part:

"The record of the proceedings of a deliberative assembly is usually called the Minutes, or the Record, or the Journal. In the meetings of ordinary societies, there is no object in reporting the debates; the duty of the secretary, in such cases, is mainly to record what is "done" by the assembly, and not what is said by the members. The minutes should show:
• Kind of meeting, "regular" (or stated) or "special," or "adjourned regular" or "adjourned special";
• Name of the organization or assembly;
• Date/time of meeting and place, when it is not always the same;
• The fact of the presence of the regular chairman and secretary, or in their absence the names of their substitutes,
• Whether the minutes of the previous meeting were read and approved, or approved as corrected, and the date of the meeting if other than a regular business meeting;
• All main motions (except such as were withdrawn) and motions that bring a main question again before the assembly, stating the wording as adopted or disposed of, and the disposition--including temporary disposition (with any primary and secondary amendments and adhering secondary motions then pending;
• Secondary motions not lost or withdrawn where needed for clarity of the minutes;
• Previous notice of motions;
• Points of order and appeals, and reasons the chair gives for the ruling;
• Time of adjournment."

Does Robert’s Rules conflict with IRS rules?
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
628
Likes
2
Location
Northwest Arkansas
Jeez Ed, I wish you hadn't told George that - now I'm really gonna have my hands full!!!;)
 
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
194
Likes
0
Location
Camillus, NY
George is way ahead on executin as well as degree of difficulty - just say'n:eek:
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
183
Likes
0
Steve,
As editor of the journal, I have a question about procedure for your first point. Currently the six candidates' photos and statements are included in the journal. Those statements and photos take up three pages (two per page). So, if there were, say, 20 candidates, that would take 40 pages in the journal, providing each candidate were to receive the same amount of space.

The election is a critical process for the AAW and some have suggested that more lengthy statements be provided. (The number of words are limited now because of space considerations.)

What would you suggest as a way to procedurally implement your point number one? (And I'm not saying it's not a good idea . . . I'm just looking for more information, as an editorial concern.)

Betty Scarpino, editor, American Woodturner

Simple answer is to use the internet instead of the Journal. Space is no longer an issue, and new media allows for folks to not only see that person as a candidate, but could also allow them to link over to social networking sites like Linked In (to check their professional bio) and FaceBook (to check out their personal bio). I would publish a small article in the Journal redirecting members to look at the website.

In the event that someone wanted to argue that the internet may not be 100% available to the membership, I would argue that anyone can ask a friend or go to the library. I don't think it makes sense to plan to publish stuff for what applies to a very small percentage of the audience only. As the secretary for one club, we do not have a paper based newsletter, and it actually exists only as a Blog... and everyone reads it because I don't give them any choice.
 
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
384
Likes
8
Internet / print

Steve (and I think Ron Sardo mentioned web pages for candidates)

Certainly having a more detailed statement on the AAW website for each candidate would be helpful. But I'd still want something in the journal, as an historical record. So maybe the current shorter statement, then a longer one on the internet might be helpful.

Betty Scarpino, editor, AW
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Messages
1,224
Likes
1,135
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
Steve (and I think Ron Sardo mentioned web pages for candidates)

Certainly having a more detailed statement on the AAW website for each candidate would be helpful. But I'd still want something in the journal, as an historical record. So maybe the current shorter statement, then a longer one on the internet might be helpful.

Betty Scarpino, editor, AW

That is 100% do-able...
 
R

Ron Sardo

Guest
Steve (and I think Ron Sardo mentioned web pages for candidates)

Certainly having a more detailed statement on the AAW website for each candidate would be helpful. But I'd still want something in the journal, as an historical record. So maybe the current shorter statement, then a longer one on the internet might be helpful.

Betty Scarpino, editor, AW


Sounds good, you can also add a link in the journal to the full statement
 
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
187
Likes
0
Location
Crystal River Valley - Colorado
Simple answer is to use the internet instead of the Journal.
I've wondered about that.
The 'net is an efficient vehicle for this kind of thing, but unhappily many, perhaps most, AAW members are not online.

I think there may need to be another mechanism to permit and encourage the entire membership to participate in this process if they wish to do so.

Many may well choose not to participate, and that's fine, but the opportunity should be there I think.
Not sure how. A mailing of some kind perhaps? Just thinking out loud here....
 

Steve Worcester

Admin Emeritus
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
2,690
Likes
93
Location
Plano, Texas
Website
www.turningwood.com
Steve (and I think Ron Sardo mentioned web pages for candidates)

Certainly having a more detailed statement on the AAW website for each candidate would be helpful. But I'd still want something in the journal, as an historical record. So maybe the current shorter statement, then a longer one on the internet might be helpful.

Betty Scarpino, editor, AW

I have heard from numerous people they would like to see more in print, since there is a large majority who do not have internet access. Maybe large is an overstatement, but they certainly do exist.
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Messages
1,224
Likes
1,135
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
No Ed, actually the IRS codes do not conflict with Roberts' Rules at all; they're perfectly consistent and compatible.

Judy, ok - thanks for the clarification. I thought you were saying the AAW Board minutes were not being recorded correctly in some way - do the published minutes not conform to Robert's Rules?
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
935
Likes
241
Location
Newberg, OR: 20mi SW of Portland: AAW #21058
I'm fairly certain I'm not the only AAW member that is not a chapter member. So in that regard I feel all BOD information should be available at a members only section.

An example is the letter Tom sent to the chapter presidents. I feel this should have been posted where all could see it.

You might as well just post everything to the general site for all to see.

It's not that I don't trust my fellow members to keep information confidential, it's just that I don't trust my fellow members to keep information confidential. ;)
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
935
Likes
241
Location
Newberg, OR: 20mi SW of Portland: AAW #21058
Judy, ok - thanks for the clarification. I thought you were saying the AAW Board minutes were not being recorded correctly in some way - do the published minutes not conform to Robert's Rules?

I guess this causes me to ask the purpose of the minutes? I was under the impression it was to use as a history of developments and changes -- a record of the discussion's pros and cons with a resolution decided upon.
 
Joined
Dec 25, 2006
Messages
60
Likes
0
Location
Abilene, TX
Judy, ok - thanks for the clarification. I thought you were saying the AAW Board minutes were not being recorded correctly in some way - do the published minutes not conform to Robert's Rules?

Yep, they would technically conform, I'd agree; and yet I've only read the one set published here: where a 90 minute meeting had not a list of all those in attendance, and only about 4 sentences of "business conducted," which is well - shall we say - rather, ok, extremely unusual - for a 90 minute Board of Directors' meeting. Minutes do need to reflect what people said, and who said what, so you have linkage to how actions transpired. Again, I am not referencing personnel issues at all; those are closed. I just mean business in general; the Minutes I read here really tell you not much at all about the Board Meeting. But then when I used to take the Minutes, not for AAW again, but for another entity, I was meticulous with detail and accuracy. So might just be me.

Yes, Owen, that's my take on it, too, exactly, so you have a history of the discussion. Very excellent way of putting it, thanks!!!!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top