Food Safe Tangent - Walnut Oil

[Rick-U]

Didn't want to hijack the Food safe bowl finishes thread therefore the new post. I've been using walnut oil lately, and I think I like it. Some others do to (example: Food Safe Questions), but I don't find too much mention of it otherwise.

For those who've tried walnut oil and don't use it I would appreciate knowing why you prefer something else.

Thanks,

 

[Mark Mandell]

Rick,

I do not use any nut oil finishes on food-use bowls because of the not uncommon allergies to them. Walnut and peanut oil are the two most common offenders in the group. I know one turner who worked with a great deal of walnut and would up with an extreme sensitivity to it. I'd hate to serve someone a salad and watch as they went into anaphylactic shock because of the oil in the bowl. That sounds extreme, but I'll just pass on the chance. I've used walnut oil on turnings; generally find tung oil and BLO to be better finishes and faster to use and build.

Mark

 

[MichaelMouse]

Rick,

I do not use any nut oil finishes on food-use bowls because of the not uncommon allergies to them.

Which is of course untrue, but I'm sure no amount of real information will overcome one Oprah show. Allergies to nut proteins are present in less than one percent of the population, and of those, less than one percent have any symtom beyond general histamine reaction. In school we were told that the danger was below 1 in 100,000 for the more common peanut (legume) allergy.

Then there's the problem that commercial walnut oil is solvent extracted, and contains no proteins, with even the healthy "natural" pressed stuff deemed safe by the AAAAI for consumption by individuals with nut allergies.

It was some nut that hit, though, I suppose if people insist on regarding it as a piece of the sky, we'll never get over it.

 

[Ruth Niles]

Michael,
So if I keep using walnut oil or beeswax, the people who are allergic to nuts and bee stings are safe; providing they don't eat the bowl?

Ruth
www.torne-lignum.com

 

[spinsdawood]

Well Ruth, if they eat the bowl I'd call Orkin. I use walnut oil on baby rattles and honey dippers. Just give your finish a few days to cure,
Jim

 

[Mark Mandell]

Which is of course untrue, but I'm sure no amount of real information will overcome one Oprah show. Allergies to nut proteins are present in less than one percent of the population, and of those, less than one percent have any symtom beyond general histamine reaction. In school we were told that the danger was below 1 in 100,000 for the more common peanut (legume) allergy.

Then there's the problem that commercial walnut oil is solvent extracted, and contains no proteins, with even the healthy "natural" pressed stuff deemed safe by the AAAAI for consumption by individuals with nut allergies.

It was some nut that hit, though, I suppose if people insist on regarding it as a piece of the sky, we'll never get over it.

Might not be a bad idea if, prior to personal attacks or further analogies to childrens' literature, you would recheck your own source. The AAAA&I indicates that food allergies incidence, including nuts, is now at least 4 times what you state. Perhaps that's why the FDA requires some nut products, especially peanuts, to be listed on processed food labels on a separate line?

I wouldn't be so blythe about dismissing "general histamine" reactions, and I'll not be telling someone when their throat is starting to swell that a couple of Benadryl will fix'em right up.

While the 1997 U.C. Davis study of tree nut oils, including walnut, found differences in antigen content of studied oils tied to processing types and degrees, there is no current means for a woodworker to determine how the oil they are going to use was extracted. In fact, I contacted several walnut oil "merchants" when I considered using it as a finish (rather than buying it at the food store), and found there were at least 4 different "grades" of walnut oil (at rapidly escalating prices), depending on the degree of refinement. It was the lowest grade that was recommended for use as a finish which would, coincidentially, have the highest content of offending antigens. I still have some of the oil on my finish shelf and, not surprisingly, its label makes absolutely no mention of how the oil was extracted, its grade, or its degree of refinement.

I have no qualms about The Sky, but the walnut oil stays on the shelf until I get tired of looking at it and pitch it. All things being equal, it makes no sense for me to put walnut oil on a bowl and wait for some lawyer to come knocking at my door (rightly or wrongly) because his client got sick after eating out of the walnut oil finished salad bowl I sold her as "safe." Especially when I, as a woodworker, am very aware of juglans antigen reactions, and am unable to determine and prove the actual content of the walnut oil finish which I used.

But Mr. Mouse, you are, of course, free to proceed differently, and damn Oprah and them chickens, Full Speed Ahead!

 

[john lucas]

I've been trying Walnut oil and just don't like the look. I can't get a really good shine like I can with other oil type finishes. I still haven't answered the food safe finish question for my purposes. I don't want to argue with the customer because you can't change their mind and will lose a sale.
I tried a salad bowl finish but didn't like the look. It seemed artificially glossy. I guess I need to experiment with it some more and try different techniques of finishing. Just brushing on and rubbing it in didn't work for me. Perhaps knocking down the gloss with steel wool and then buffing with the beal would bring back the right kind of gloss. I didn't have the beal system last time.
I really like a plain beeswax finish. It has a very low sheen and smells and feels great but doesn't wear very well.
Since I don't make very many items than need to be food safe I've never spent much time working on the details.

 

[Dr_dewey]

rancid concern

most vegatable oils will go rancid and would assume nut oils do the same.

 

[TurnedAround]

I buy my walnut oil from a Publix food store near my home. I don't use it exclusively, but do like the way it gives cherry and walnut turnings a rich deep color when applied. I always inform my bowl recipients of the finish, regardless of what type is used. I also like the way it enhances the smell of walnut turnings (until it goes rancid ). I keep mine in the fridge just as the label says you should.

As far as the debate between Mark and the Mouse goes, it seems we have here the proverbial walnut oil and water. They just dont mix .

 

[Mike Schwing]

I've gone through a whole bottle of Mahoney's walnut oil and I have formed an opinion - I don't like it. It is EXTREMELY yellow and alters the color of almost all things it is applied to in a manner I do not like.

After a couple hundred salad bowls with different finishes, I have changed my preferred finish to simply a coat of clear butcher's wax, buffed by hand. It does not alter the color very much if at all. It gives a warm appearance to the work, and it super, super easy to reapply if desired by the user. Any finish applied to a working bowl will eventually (sometimes quickly) wear, peel, or flake, so why bother?

I was initially impressed by my ability to buff a Watco'd bowl to a fantastic shine, but my customers were not. They all bitched and moaned that the first time they used the bowl the shine went away. I was not able to achieve as nice a buff with the walnut oil but the same concerns apply regarding my customers.

Now I give them a more natural looking bowl and they like it better. It doesn't take me a week's extra time to apply, dry, cure, and buff either. Win/win.

 

[C Edward Moore]

Why

MMouse,

If I were you I would read Mark Mandell's posts very carefully. And anyone who has heard of David Ellsworth's problems with walnuts would not make light of those who have life-threatening allergic reactions to walnuts. And while I am not exactly lock-step with David's ideas on education, he certainly deserves my respect, appreciation, and the right to be walnut-free. And I will not subject his allergic problems to derision nor will I cast them aside as if they aren't worthy of my consideration.

And you might seriously consider apologizing to Mark and David for your insensitivity.

 

[Brian Hahn]

A personal nut oil problem

OK, here's a specific example of a problem:
I have a problem with peanuts. I'm not allergic to them per se, rather I'm allergic to the digestive products. That made it harder to diagnose because it didn't hit until 12 - 24 hours later, then it's multiple trips to the bathroom. And peanut oil does cause the problem. Just to make life more challenging for me, I also have the same problem with soy bean oil, which is used in almost everything. Fortunately, antihistamines block the reaction when I can't avoid those oils.

So, while you can argue that the amount of oil leached out of a bowl in miniscule, if you want to be absolutely safe choose an oil that cures (polymerizes) so it can't leach out.

Just my experience, for what it's worth.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Might not be a bad idea if, prior to personal attacks or further analogies to childrens' literature, you would recheck your own source. The AAAA&I indicates that food allergies incidence, including nuts, is now at least 4 times what you state. Perhaps that's why the FDA requires some nut products, especially peanuts, to be listed on processed food labels on a separate line?

http://www.asthmacasestudies.org/patients/publicedmat/tips/foodallergy.stm

Sorry, but the reality remains that nut allergies are more rare than seafood, and dairy. "Up to 8%" with allergies among children and 2% among adults with a food allergy can be quickly put into perspective when we note that only 21% of those with a peanut allergy will outgrow it. Makes that 8% figure quite a bit smaller, if we're considering nuts seperately.

You need to read and interpret, not look for support for what you think you already know.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~aair/nuts.htm

"It may surprise you that we think the risk that a pre-teenage child with nut allergy will have a fatal reaction is so small that the wisdom of supplying adrenaline syringes for them is highly questionable. For the whole of the USA we are currently aware of only three such deaths over many years, far fewer than from a huge variety of other causes."

Oh well, I guess perception is reality....

 

[hockenbery]

Some good points have been made.

1. Seems like the thread says a lot of folks have nut allegies. Any small percentage of say the US population is a bunch of folks. For instance 1800 is only .0006 % of the US population. But we watch that number grow every day. In perspective 1800 is sort of the highway death toll for a month.

2. People allergic to nuts have considerable discomfort when they come in contact or eat nut products and in some instances die as aresult. I know personnaly of a teenager who intentionally ate nuts to show his friend how would break out but unfortunately died before completing the demonstration.

3. Walnut oil is not the most attractive finish available.

4. The most germain issue has not been addressed: Does dried walnut oil presents a risk? Until this is know it might be best not to use walnut oil.

We used walnut oil as a finish in kids classes because it wouldn't hurt them and they could clean up by licking their fingers. We did always ask if anyone in the class had allegies. This was a controlled interaction.


Al

 

[Russ Fairfield]

Mike, you have discovered why I can win the arguement about "food safety" every time with the "no finish". As a general rule, people do not trust finishes, but they do trust bare wood. People associate wood with food, whether it be the crates for shipping lettuce, the barrels for wine, or the more personal use as cutting boards and utinsels in their kitchen. All of these uses of wood share one thing - NO FINISH.

 

[Jack Savona]

No finish

Russ, after reading your comments a while back questioning whether we needed any finish at all, I went ahead and did a few bowls with just the 3 Beall wheels. I've had several comments like: "Wow, what a nice finish. What did you use?"

For any non-decorative material that might eventually have food in it, I'm doing more no finish.

Thanks again, Russ, for your plethora (love that word) of information.

Jack Savona (...having wonderful weather in Maine!)

 

[john lucas]

I've used the Beal on bare wood also but I suspect this is also a finish. All of the compounds that we use for polishing wood are suspended in wax and of course the final compound if you use it is Carnauba wax. I don't know what kind of wax is in the Tripoli or White Diamond. In fact I wonder how much of the abrasive is left behind and what is the material in the abrasive.
I don't think anyone eats off my hand mirrors so it makes me want to stick to those instead of bowls. Of course there are probably some personal injuries to one's pride when you look in the mirror but I can't do anything about that.

 

[C Edward Moore]

How ugly were they ....??

John,

When people ask me if I OD'd on Ugly Pills, I just say "Naw, it just looks like it." And some of the girls were so rough where I came from that we suspected that they used Preparation H for lipstick.

And I promise not to look into any of your mirrors.

 

[-e-]

i use different waxes depending on the wood and my mood.

for blackwood acacia bowls, the chapman's beeswax works exceptionally well== and my customers can easily get some to keep the bowls looking good. the chapman's seems to cure better than just wax.

for a few walnut bowls, the initial finish of Salad Bowl finish worked better than just wax. then i use a beeswax/mineral oil combination after each cleaning.

for my cutting boards and tulip poplar fruit bowl, a harder wax works better after each cleaning.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Absolutely. Then the bacteria they sequestered and subsequently ingest are their own responsibility, except, of course, if they hire a lawyer. The folks with wax are in the same boat, as are those whose answer is the FPL suggestion of mineral oil, though you certainly don't want it on light wood, because the dirt from your hands will leave marks. Imagine what else sticks.

Then there are the folks who use such arguments as "Perhaps that's why the FDA requires some nut products, especially peanuts, to be listed on processed food labels on a separate line?" to justify their position. Well, look at your lawnmower instruction book, especially at the warning not to pick it up and use it as a hedge trimmer. Truely, as the old advertising saw has it, no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

Oh yes - rancidity is caused by incomplete oxidation. If you limit the access to oxygen by storing in a half-empty bottle, storing a bowl in a bowl, or cutting board surface tight to a counter, you will get rancidity. Anyone who cares to can prove it easily with a freshly coated board and their nose. Unless they are already convinced.

So why do folks who make make a cocobolo bowl worry about the cobalt siccatives in the finish?

 

[Matt Meadows]

We have a child in our church that is allergic to anything that is even shaped like a peanut. We all wash our hands well before eating at luncheons b/c even cross contamination from my hands (from the PB&J I had earlier) can make him really, really sick.

Whether or not the oil is dangerous I don't know, but the chance of making that lil boy sick is plenty enough for me to avoid using it. Even a tiny, barely visible fleck of walnut in the oil will carry enough protien to cause serious trouble.

BTW, all lacquers are nontoxic and "food grade" when fully cured, it's just not listed as such in "FDA" material. Anyone who believes a single FDA delusion is decieving themselves. The FDA is more corrupt than the IRS and Enron.

 

[Gynia]

Yes walnut oil is a food safe finish.

This has been a terrific thread. I have rarely read so many positive opposing views. Nore have I read so many responses which work so hard at not taking a position.

Walnut oil? I love the look, feel and use of walnut oil on American Black Walnut. I haven't found a finish that looks as good as walnut oil on a walnut turning.

I don't currently have an alergy to walnut oil. I don't give a seconds thought to the alergic posiblities of walnut oil. Instead I am more concerned with the visual and tactal effect the finish is going to have on my turning.

I refuse to take responsiblity for other peoples alergies. I don't expect other people to take any responsiblity for my alergies either. If I am asked what the finish is I will happly provide that information. If I am asked if a bowl that is finished with walnut oil is food safe I will respond that I use walnut oil that is sold in the super market for salad dressing. I will not provide medical advice about walnut oil.

Good luck

 

[Mike Schwing]

BRAVO Gynia! As someone with loads of allergies (but not nut allergies) I agree totally. When invited to a dinner party I don't demand the host prepare a meal with no dairy, nor do I ask her to remove the roses from the centerpiece.

My previous post on this thread was completely based on the asthetic properties of walnut oil. I don't favor it. Beyond that, I always list what the bowl was finished with on the sale ticket. Far as I'm concerned, thats as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Rick-U]

Thanks

Looks like it's time for me to thank the many people who've provided so much food for thought and enlightened many of us along the way. You've exceeded my expectations once again! I have learned there is always more homework to do to find that perfect finish , but until then I think there's a place for walnut oil in my life even if it does include an asterisk and a couple of footnotes.

Thanks again.

 

[MichaelMouse]

BRAVO Gynia! As someone with loads of allergies (but not nut allergies) I agree totally. When invited to a dinner party I don't demand the host prepare a meal with no dairy, nor do I ask her to remove the roses from the centerpiece.

Worth repeating, Mike. Most people with allergies are aware of them, though some can be remarkably careless about caring for themselves.

In 25 years of answering the pager, I had one case of what I thought might be nut allergy. Kids came running into the shop to get me because the Middle School science teacher was itching, hyperventilating, and becoming covered with hives. I sent them after the prepositioned equipment and started with the "brief history" while I waited. She had come in to the teachers' lounge, taken a couple of chocolates which might have had nuts in them. Denied previous reaction. I asked, found one of the other teachers had some antihistamine, called our regional medical control by landline, and gave her some. By then the oxygen had arrived and the "history in depth" began.

She had been cleaning her prep room, where the gear from the pond life lab had been stored wet the previous Friday - and knew she had a mold allergy! :mad:

Of full-blown reactions, only ones that have progressed to epi and even tubes have been insect stings and attic cleaning. Fully 75% of those knew they were sensitive, and didn't get an epi pen.

My card for those pieces so coated states it is walnut oil. Shouldn't surprise anyone.