Sharpening Set up

[dave harris]

what do most people use for sharpening turning tools? What size grinder, what speed is required, what type of jigs, or what is the preferred sharpening system(s)? there seems to be numerous "systems" available.

Thanks

 

[odie]

what do most people use for sharpening turning tools? What size grinder, what speed is required, what type of jigs, or what is the preferred sharpening system(s)? there seems to be numerous "systems" available.

Thanks

It would be interesting to find out what "most" turners use, but I'm betting the 8" 1725rpm grinder is somewhere at the top.

I used a 6" 3450rpm grinder for 20+ years before I made the switch......that will work well, too.

My bet is the Wolverine is the most common sharpening jig.......but, who knows for sure?

ooc

 

[Steve Worcester]

I use a Woodcraft slow speed 8" grinder with Oneway blue wheels. I would own a Baldor if it wasn't >$500.
For jigs, I use a Oneway setup and added a Don Gieger system to it. The swapped that out for a Sharp Fast that fits in the One-Way setup.

Used a Wolverine for years until the Sharpfast came out. No worries about dropping off the sides.

I have a Tormek, that I haven't turned on except to sharpen scissors.

 

[john lucas]

Based on what I see the majority of turners use an 8" slow speed grinder or 6" high speed grinder with the Oneway jig and white, pink or blue wheels . The grit is usually somewhere between 60 and 120.
Of course you will get a lot of other options because sharpening is one of the most hotly debated issues. I've tried belt sanders which I think are actually a better option but no one makes the perfect one yet.
I've used Disc sanders which work well with the older tools because you can sharpen near the middle where the surface speed is slower so you don't overheat tools. With HSS tools you can sharpen on the outer areas.
I've used wet wheel slow speed grinders. The work well with jigs, not so well when you grind by hand. I guess I grew up watching the sparks come over the edge to know when I have the proper angle. With a wet wheel I can't see the sparks.
When I started turning I used a 3450 6" grinder with gray wheels. I did OK with it. YOu just have to learn how to use it. The newer grinders with white wheels are much better.

 

[justaccord]

I use an 8" slow-fast grinder (usually fast) with the super Norton SG wheels. I grind almost everything on a platform, Stu Batty/Cindy Drozda style.

 

[Wayne Spence]

Sharpening

Dave-I know of no subject that will generate more correspondence, time or energy than sharpening. It ranges from fairly crude stones to the most sophisticated machinery such as the Tormek.From using a rock to an approach using Zen Buddhism. Matters not whether it is chisels, carving gouges or turning tools. FYI I use a 1725 8" white aluminum oxide wheel. For a jig it is the Wolverine. For carrying around away from the shop a 5" silicon carbide wheel at 3400 rpm works wonders.

I have read of some concern among turners in using the standard soft bonded aluminum oxide wheel with some of the latest steels that are super hard. This bears some consideration as the aluminum oxide wheels will abrade them but the wheels will wear away much quicker. In the near future some tools may be made of ceramic oxides such as zirconium, chromium, etc. They have been prevalent in industry for years and as far as I know would not be able to be sharpened by conventional means. A few ceramic knives came on the market about 5 years ago or so and I have never heard or read any evaluation of them.

In the 50's an outdoor writer named Ted Trueblood said that after all the discussion and argumentation regarding fishing methods the best thing to do was get the bait in the water and fish like hell. I might add to that just get the steel to the wheel and turn like hell.

Wayne

 

[robo hippy]

I have a slow speed Baldor. Nice thing about it is that it doesn't have to be bolted or clamped down to the bench. Also, unlike the Woodcraft slow speed grinder, if you want to push hard into the wheel it won't bog down. I use CBN wheels (cubic boric nitride), which is 3/16 inch of material bonded onto an aluminum wheel, and are already balanced. To date, I don't know of another turner who uses them. They are made to order. I have an 80 grit wheel, and a 150 grit wheel. The 80 grit wheel is 4 years old, and has 1/8 inch of material left on it. CBN is made for grinding steel. Diamonds are made for grinding carbide, and tend to plug up with steel. You clean with a really hard aluminum oxide. The bad thing about them is that they cost about $300 each. In the time that I have had mine, I would have gone through at least $300 worth of regular grinding wheels.

I had an Ellsworth jig before Oneway was out. Use it a lot, and it is very simple. After taking a 3 day workshop with Stewart Batty, I have been using a platform a lot more, and may end up with that as my permanent thing for gouges and scrapers. No need to set the tool up in a jig, just put it on the platform and sharpen. You can do any gouge from spindle, roughing, fingernail, or swept back gouge on a platform. Really easy.

If I was to add another grinder, it would be a high speed for shaping, or maybe a belt. I like my scraper sides rounded a like skews because I have them at a 45 degree angle a lot.

robo hippy

 

[Vaughn]

I have the low-speed Woodcraft grinder with Oneway wheels and the PSI knock-off of the Wolverine, and a Tormek. I use the Tormek now on all my gouges, and the dry grinder for scrapers and hollowing tool bits. I've recently gotten the Tormek bench grinder mount so I can use the Tormek jigs on the dry grinder for rough shaping, but haven't taken the time to set it up yet.

 

[hockenbery]

Sharpening is one area where the Pro's and Experts DO NOT agree.

There has been a shift by many pros who turn green wood toward 60 and courser wheels for sharpening the bowl gouge. in the 1990's everyone was using 100 grit wheels. so you have the 100 grit-60grit controversy. Most pros and experts recommend the use of jigs. But there is a jig no jig controversy.

The woodcraft 8" slow speed grinder is about the best deal in grinders.
you will do fine with the wheels that come with it.
add the Oneway Wolverine and you are ready to go.

The 8"woodcraft & Wolverine is as close to a standard system as you will find.


Most of the places I visit as a turner have this system.

If you get to the Florida Symposium. Don Geiger is running two Workshops on sharpening. An excellent value for anyone wanting to learn to sharpen.

There is even more controversy from the carbide turners who don't sharpen at all.

Happy Turning,
AL

 

[David Wilkins]

I use a general 6" 1735 rpm grinder with blue norton 2x wheels. 80 grit works fine for me.
For jigs.
I teach at two facilities, both have a wolverine jig, neither have an adequate way for the students to sharpen the oval skews consistently.

At home I have the tru-grind jig by wood-cut tools. It easily and accurately grinds my spindle, bowl, roughing gouges, as well as my skews and scrapers. It also true's and dresses the wheels accurately, all with the base and arm that come with the standard unit.

 

[waltben]

For over six years -

• Woodcraft 8" 1725rpm grinder w/original white wheels
• Wolverine system
• Cheap B&D grinder w/sewn cloth wheels, tripoli & white diamond to hone
• When away from home and demonstrating, sometimes a diamond hone to touch up.
• Belt sander w/100 grit to re-shape tools, then grinder & hone to sharpen

There's hundreds of other ways, but this is what I use.

 

[dmahany]

Sharpenijng Set Up

I am far from an expert however I have found the slow speed on the Delta VS 8" grinder gives me excellent results. I have been using the 60 and 120 grit pink Aluminum Oxide wheels from Woodcraft and are happy with them for gouges and turning tools. The Oneway Wolverine set up and finger nail ginding jig made a huge improvement in my grinding results.

I have a Tormek that I use for chisels, planer blades and other items but I much prefer the dry grinding for my turning tools.

 

[john lucas]

David I have a jig for sharpening my oval skew. If I have a photo of it at home I'll post it. It's just a table that sits on the Oneway flatform and has a V block glued to it. I shaped some grooves to fit the oval skew so it sits flat.

 

[Vaughn]

...There is even more controversy from the carbide turners who don't sharpen at all...

I'd say the controversy isn't with the guys using the carbide, it's with the guys who consider the carbide users to be less of a turner because they use carbide. Just sayin'.

 

[odie]

I'd say the controversy isn't with the guys using the carbide, it's with the guys who consider the carbide users to be less of a turner because they use carbide. Just sayin'.

That's probably very true, Vaughn......

It's those who know how to sharpen who generally wouldn't trade that knowledge for a selection of carbide tools.

Carbide tools seem to get some turners going, but forestall the inevitable realization that tool sharpening offers greater versatility. Carbide is pretty darned difficult to reshape a cutting profile to fit a particular task.......agreed?

To address your point, Vaughn......I don't think turners who don't sharpen, but use carbide tools exclusively, are any less of a turner.....but there probably isn't any of them that wouldn't benefit by learning how to sharpen traditional steel tools. You might even venture to say that a few of them just might become better turners if they did.

ooc

edit: Just to establish the record......I have a couple of Hunter tools. I must admit they are really nice to have at times, but there isn't anything they can do that more traditional tools can't do just as well.......

 

[Jon Adams]

Jet Wet Sharpener

I am very new to turning so my knowledge is very limited but I went with the Jet wet system and am very happy with it. Simple to use and cheaper than the Tormek.

 

[rsser]

I was a whetstone sceptic but there's enough evidence, from Farrance and the articles in AWT, to indicate that there are technical advantages. Whether they're cost-effective is another question.

 

[John Jordan]

1800 rpm baldor 7 or 8 inch, 60 grit wheel -80 will do, is hard to beat. The 8" import grinders from Woodcraft are second and a very good value. They come with a decent 60 grit wheel and a 100/120 which I don't typically use. Freehand sharpening is difficult on the very fine wheels as there is little "feel" when grinding.

Several people have mentioned various premium type wheels, and they are better, but not much different. I would not buy one until a new wheel is needed. Without getting into the details of it all, most any of the white/pink/blue wheels will do well. A regular turner will not need a lot of grinding wheels in their lifetime.

Fiddle with tightening/loosening, maybe even making your own bushings for the wheels-they need to NOT WOBBLE side to side. Don't get suckered into balancing kits that cost more than the grinder-if the grinder will run smoothly without wheels, you don't need a balancer. Use a good diamond dresser often and lightly.

FWIW, the modern steels that are available now are actually EASIER to grind than standard HSS steels. That the reason they exist, to make sharpening industrial cutting tools easier. The harder elements of the alloys are smaller and more homogeneous. (look up CPM steel if you really care) Some folks would have us believe only their sharpening equipment will do.......

John

 

[rsser]

FWIW I've found that wheel bushes don't need to be all that accurate. The paper and metal washers on the side do the holding. Once the wheel is fitted and trued, you're ready to rock and roll.

Regular cleaning of the wheel face is of course a must.

 

[robo hippy]

For me, the biggest reason to use finer grit wheels is that the steel will last a lot longer. I notice a huge difference between the 80 and 150 grit wheels that I use. I did have a 320 for a while, and some times it just wouldn't remove enough steel to really refresh the edge. I wouldn't even consider a 60 grit wheel, except for quick reshaping of a tool.

robo hippy

 

[rsser]

Yeah, but that's one of the things isn't it RH?

Reshape on coarse, sharpen on fine.

 

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

Sorby has a sharpening system they call Pro Edge; it's a sanding belt style sharpener. I had a chance recently to try one out and liked it so much I replaced my 8" grinder. I've only had it about a month, but so far I don't regret my purchase.

 

[odie]

Sorby has a sharpening system they call Pro Edge; it's a sanding belt style sharpener. I had a chance recently to try one out and liked it so much I replaced my 8" grinder. I've only had it about a month, but so far I don't regret my purchase.

Malcolm........

I'm interested to know more about why you think the belt sharpener is better than the 8" grinder.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like some feedback on the differences as you perceive them......

thanks

ooc

 

[rsser]

Yeah, Darlow is a fan.

Cool running. Flat bevel.

Worth a look.

 

[odie]

In case anyone is interested in seeing the Sorby video of the Pro Edge sharpener, click on the link and scroll down to the bottom:

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/s...Edge_System___Sorby_Pro_Edge___pro_edge?Args=

ooc

 

[odie]

Yeah, Darlow is a fan.

Cool running. Flat bevel.

Worth a look.

Hello rsser.......

A question for anyone who would care to answer........

In practical terms, what makes a flat bevel any better than a curved one?

Off hand, it seems like the physical properties of the curved bevel might be more conducive to turning than the flat......but, I'd like to see some discussion about it......

Also, it's probable that you could re-hone the edge on a curved bevel more times than the flat bevel before regrinding is necessary. This is because once the cutting edge itself is above the plane of the straight bevel, it would become difficult to cut.....and it would seem the very first re-hone would be doing that........does it not?

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

Off hand, it seems like the physical properties of the curved bevel might be more conducive to turning than the flat......but, I'd like to see some discussion about it......

There you go again, thinking of the bevel only as perpendicular to the edge. Our fellows of the flat persuasion differentiate between sharpness angle and clearance angle in describing their planes, and I think the terminology is applicable here. A zero clearance angle is not, in my opinion desirable, because it bruises too easily as you work the inside of a curve. As to sharpness angles, we use high ones in "shear scraping" all the time, and for the same reason the flat folks do - it's best for changing grain directions.

A rounded bevel would kick the edge out of the cut every time you swung the handle to trail it. Great for plunging, but not too good for follow. You'd have to worry a lot about bruising with the close "heel" on your bevel. If you move the handle more perpendicular to the direction of travel you would not want to rise out of the cut, but with the bevel rounding away behind you, you would have to do depth control on your own. In short, you'd have to rely on support parallel to the edge and select your clearance angle. Which isn't bad, but you'd lack stability with that rounded edge, just as you do with the cylindrical gouge and variable angle grind. Tough to coordinate all those round unstable surfaces! Might be "features" to some, but those of the Polish persuasion might find the KISS principle superior, and select another tool.

 

[odie]

There you go again, thinking of the bevel only as perpendicular to the edge. Our fellows of the flat persuasion differentiate between sharpness angle and clearance angle in describing their planes, and I think the terminology is applicable here. A zero clearance angle is not, in my opinion desirable, because it bruises too easily as you work the inside of a curve. As to sharpness angles, we use high ones in "shear scraping" all the time, and for the same reason the flat folks do - it's best for changing grain directions.

A rounded bevel would kick the edge out of the cut every time you swung the handle to trail it. Great for plunging, but not too good for follow. You'd have to worry a lot about bruising with the close "heel" on your bevel. If you move the handle more perpendicular to the direction of travel you would not want to rise out of the cut, but with the bevel rounding away behind you, you would have to do depth control on your own. In short, you'd have to rely on support parallel to the edge and select your clearance angle. Which isn't bad, but you'd lack stability with that rounded edge, just as you do with the cylindrical gouge and variable angle grind. Tough to coordinate all those round unstable surfaces! Might be "features" to some, but those of the Polish persuasion might find the KISS principle superior, and select another tool.

Well MM......once again you do not understand the scope of the discussion.
I understand what you are saying......just don't agree with you.

The fulcrum will be at the heel of the bevel, no matter if the bevel is ground straight, or curved. It is the fulcrum which provides stability of the cut......not the interior of the bevel.

If the cutting edge ends up above the plane of the flat bevel, it is physically impossible for it to cut at all with the bevel rubbing.....this is what will happen if you re-hone the edge. If you resharpen every time, instead of honing the edge, that would be a moot point. You see, with resharpening, the cutting edge would remain exactly on the same plane as the straight beveled edge. With honing, the cutting edge rises slightly.....but, that curved bevel allows the entire surface to dip a little lower. (The fulcrum will be in the same location in either case....flat, or curved.)

It seems to me the beauty of the curved bevel is that you can re-hone several times before resharpening, and the fulcrum of the curved bevel can allow for that.

I do appreciate your input, but can't agree with your thoughts on this.......thanks.

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

Well, OD, I have trouble figuring out why the wood retains a curved reverse image of the gouge unless it's supported parallel to the edge. In the case of these random shavings grabbed off the top of a sack full, it appears as if it's cutting nearly a half inch wide, which would mean that much support, since the bevel's only a quarter inch perpendicular to the edge. Not to mention the curve and twist you see here. Shaving's tapered and twists as if it were cutting thick and feathering out of the cut. The width of the shaving is determined by the amount of tool used to make it. Why I like to skew, and take advantage of the natural gentle curve of my broad gouges to feather the exit.

Note the shaving contains all grain orientations from direct cross (end) to along the grain (face).

You can see the outside position here pretty well, where I'm cutting too broadly, tearing up the left side with a scrape. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Peeling-Outside.jpg

 

[waltben]

Seems this thread has only contributed proof to my argument that no wood turner has the absolute inside truth to any aspect of turning - only what they've found that works for them personally. I started demonstrating, explaining what I was doing, I'd start to get arguments for this and that minor aspect. Like my previous post on what I use for sharpening, I've become very comfortable in just saying that what I'm saying is just what works for me. I'm not interested in having arguments over which way is better than some other way - it gets too much like sports or what passes today for politics.

And, by the by, I didn't know we were allowed political statement avatars.

 

[odie]

Seems this thread has only contributed proof to my argument that no wood turner has the absolute inside truth to any aspect of turning - only what they've found that works for them personally.

I'd have to agree with that, waltben......

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

Seems this thread has only contributed proof to my argument that no wood turner has the absolute inside truth to any aspect of turning - only what they've found that works for them personally.


And, by the by, I didn't know we were allowed political statement avatars.

Well, there are certain principles which pertain throughout the world. Including geometry, the laws of physics, and so forth. If these principles are understood, they can be put into practice with great confidence, though with little actual variation.

Yours or mine?

Now THIS is is my statement.

 

[odie]

Now THIS is is my statement.

Now, that's something I agree with you 100%

Bravo, MM !

One of my favorite presidents said: "Speak softly, but carry a big stick!"

ooc

 

[waltben]

How 'bout adding something like:

"And we don't start wars without being able to pay for them!"

Which I've not seen either side interested in doing for a good twenty years.

 

[odie]

How 'bout adding something like:

"And we don't start wars without being able to pay for them!"

Which I've not seen either side interested in doing for a good twenty years.

Military conflicts would be much less expensive if we were not handicapped by those who are not willing to do what is necessary to win.

Quit sacrificing their lives by giving them rules of engagement that will make their own safety more of a priority than the possibility that an innocent might get in the crossfire. War is hard on the mind and soul, there are some hard truths to it. Let's stop the nonsense and give our men and women in uniform a chance to do what is necessary to keep themselves alive, be victorious, and return to their families.

In that respect, I'll agree with you, waltben.

No half-hearted efforts.....either get the job done, or get out.

Either we are serious about our commitments, or do not place our young soldiers in harms way without supporting them financially and emotionally.

These men and women deserve that at the very least.....and, we deserve the dignity of giving it to them.

ooc

 

[steelguy]

Sharpening Avatars

Seems that you guys are out of wood or grinding wheels or you can't find the keys to your shop!! Instead of discussing each other's avatars, I'd suggest you go see the new movie "Avatar" with Sigourney Weaver. Now there is a project worthy of an afternoon.

Jerry

 

[George Clark]

Military conflicts would be much less expensive if we were not handicapped by those who are not willing to do what is necessary to win.

Quit sacrificing their lives by giving them rules of engagement that will make their own safety more of a priority than the possibility that an innocent might get in the crossfire. War is hard on the mind and soul, there are some hard truths to it. Let's stop the nonsense and give our men and women in uniform a chance to do what is necessary to keep themselves alive, be victorious, and return to their families.

In that respect, I'll agree with you, waltben.

No half-hearted efforts.....either get the job done, or get out.

Either we are serious about our commitments, or do not place our young soldiers in harms way without supporting them financially and emotionally.

These men and women deserve that at the very least.....and, we deserve the dignity of giving it to them.

Odie, for the first time in the history of man I can say I agree 100% with your statement. Well said!

George

 

[KurtB]

While I agree with the sentiments expressed, we have strayed far from our topic of sharpening.

My own set up is a Woodcraft slow speed grinder with two white wheels, for now. I have ordered a Norton 3X seeded gel wheel, 80 grit for my main sharpening, and I will later buy a 46 grit Norton 3X for shaping and general grinding. I am looking forward to using the new wheels.

 

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

Malcolm........

I'm interested to know more about why you think the belt sharpener is better than the 8" grinder.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like some feedback on the differences as you perceive them......

thanks

ooc

It's a very subtle difference, but it's a flat grind versus a hollow grind. I just prefer the way that the flat grind works. If you think about "rub the bevel", with a hollow grind you have to "rub" at least 1/4" (or further) from the cutting edge. With a flat or convex grind, you can "rub" immediately behind the edge. There's also the advantage of a 2" wide belt versus a 1" wide wheel.

 

[odie]

It's a very subtle difference, but it's a flat grind versus a hollow grind. I just prefer the way that the flat grind works. If you think about "rub the bevel", with a hollow grind you have to "rub" at least 1/4" (or further) from the cutting edge. With a flat or convex grind, you can "rub" immediately behind the edge. There's also the advantage of a 2" wide belt versus a 1" wide wheel.

OK, thanks for your input, Malcolm.......

Looks like you might be the only person who actually uses the Sorby Pro Edge system in this thread. Likewise, you seem to be the one who, not only has the Sorby....you have chosen it over grinding wheels for your own tool sharpening.

Being familiar with the high quality of the work you produce, this has great weight in this discussion.

I wish I had the luxury of having both flat and curved bevels in my own shop so I could test the applications of both......but, I don't......and since I'm feeling there is no particular circumstance where I consider myself handicapped, I will probably not spend the money to find out......

......that is......unless, you'd care to offer some more information, and give some specific applications that would cause the rest of us to do a little more consideration.......

Here's a question: Is the advantages of rubbing the bevel closer to the cutting edge more advantageous with cutting wood within a tight curve a better place to see what you're seeing/experiencing......or, would a more gentle curve of the wood be a better place to observe it? Or, will this make any difference at all? I am looking for some specific input that would help us, who can only visualize the differences on a theoretical basis, to gain a little insight into the advantages, as you see them.

Anyone else is perfectly welcome to answer those questions, but I'm mainly interested in responses by those who are actually using a flat grind in preference to a curved bevel, or hollow grind.

thank you......

ooc


Additional: I believe I can see the 1" vs 2" grinding surface advantage when sharpening something like a wide skew. Is there any advantage when sharpening a gouge that sharpens only at a single point......?