turning end grain for a newbie

[unidave]

Hi, I'm very new to woodturning (except 25 years ago in the 7th grade) and I'm having a frustrating time working in hard woods. I made a crude bowl out of poplar and didn't lose any fingers so I thought I'd try purpleheart. My aim is to make a shallow dish, 9" in dia. The blank is 1.5" and roughly round from a trip thru the bandsaw.
My roughing gouge is sharp (not too sharp) and I'm having a heck of a time rounding the blank. When I get to the end-grain, it gets torn up from the gouge. I tried a very small gouge and a scraper but can't make any headway.
I realize a hard wood like purpleheart isn't the best for a beginner but I'd like to try anyway.
Any advice is welcome. Thanks.
Dave

 

[dkulze]

Hi Dave.

I'd strongly recommend hooking up with the nearest woodturning club. They're popping up all over the place like mushrooms and there should be one in shouting distance. Don't even wait for the next scheduled meeting. Give a call to a board member and ask about getting some mentoring.

There's a variety of things that could be happening here so it's tough to give you other advice. I know, for myself, that I learned in HS 25 yrs ago also and was taught to use all my tools pretty much as scrapers, with no teaching on how to ride the bevel and such. Took me several years of returning to turning before someone showed me the trick and WOW! did it make the difference. Some things are just best done hands on.

Good luck,
Dietrich

 

[KEW]

Dave,

You've got a lot figured out already based on your description of the problem. using a roughing gouge to come in from the side as you would for spindle work is not going to work well with the grain orientation of faceplate turning. You'll want to use a bowl gouge and cut from smaller to larger diameter.

I second finding a woodturner's club. But if you want to have another go while you're setting that up, here is a demonstration of bowl turning -
Go to this site and look for the video clips labeled "Faceplate Turning 1" and "Faceplate Turning 2"
http://www.woodcraft.com/videos.aspx

Hope this helps!

 

[Matt Meadows]

Pretty decent videos. Now if I could find a jaw chuck I could afford.....

 

[MichaelMouse]

You want to cut across the piece. That way you have support behind the fibers being cut. You want your edge as close to vertical as you can get it, so the work rotates into the tool, sliding down the edge as you advance slowly across. I'm going to try a photo of red oak (a brittle ring-porous wood)where I cut right off the rim of the bowl, in which you can clearly see the reaction of the fibers to the gouge. They're simply bent out below the heart, then increasingly picked up and out. Note that it's the annual rings which separate. That's what causes tearing, the up component, which has nothing but air to resist the cutting force, and which you want to minimize by keeping your sharp tool edge well-supported close in, and oriented so that point where the cut is at maximum depth is the last point of edge contact.

Oh yes, if you want the back edge of the piece clean, you want first to chamfer or make a slight back-cut so that what is the unsupported portion in the picture is within the face you're cutting.

The cuts you see were made with a 1 1/4 Sorby roughing gouge.

 

[unidave]

Wow, what a nice bunch of folks. Thanks for your replies - I will look into joining a turner's club. I've heard of a few in my area.

Based on what you said, I have a question regarding tool position.
1) Is a roughing gouge ever rotated (left or right) to attempt to shear the fibers?
2) Should the gouge be angled (swung left or right) so it's not cutting at an angle perpendicular to the workpiece?
3) In the practice of "riding the bevel" it seems the tool rest should be raised higher than the centerline - otherwise I'm holding the tool at a very low angle when attacking a 9" blank.

Thanks again for your warm welcome. It's a refreshing break from the computer-nerd forums.

Dave

 

[Wally Dickerman]

Dave, the roughing gouge is designed to be used only on spindle turning. That is, turning between centers, with the grain running parellel to the lathe bed. You'll have nothing but trouble if you're using it for bowl turning. If you don't have one, I suggest that you get a bowl gouge, which is designed and meant for bowl turning. I suggest a 1/2-inch gouge.

Dave, do yourself a big favor and sign up for a class on bowl turning. The best way to learn to use the tools, and especially the bowl gouge, is with hands-on teaching. Some woodworking stores, such as Woodcraft, regularly offer classes.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Based on what you said, I have a question regarding tool position.
1) Is a roughing gouge ever rotated (left or right) to attempt to shear the fibers?
2) Should the gouge be angled (swung left or right) so it's not cutting at an angle perpendicular to the workpiece?
3) In the practice of "riding the bevel" it seems the tool rest should be raised higher than the centerline - otherwise I'm holding the tool at a very low angle when attacking a 9" blank.

Certainly you want to drop the handle a bit. Though you get a bit more pickup with the handle trailing the cut, you get a better straight line, because you reference more of where you've been to determine where you're going.
http://www.photosite.com/mmouse8/MouseDroppings/FurtherDroppings/ Shows the beginning of a cut to finish a rough bowl. You can see how the bevel is guided along its length after establishing the cut. The second photo shows the resin where the gouge was rubbing on the cherry.

I don't like the term "ride" the bevel. People who press the bevel start to lose control of circularity too easily. The edge starts to ride up over endgrain and slide into softer facegrain, or quarter and face for long grain orientation. The gouge starts to bounce, the piece begins to flex, and pretty soon you are trying to figure out how to get back to circular. If you'd ridden the rest and guided the bevel (A-B), you wouldn't have to. http://www.photosite.com/mmouse8/BeforeBeingDropped/4a-Out-Toward-End.html Shows an angle for cutting along the grain.

I' hope I've covered your third point adequately with the pictures. You never want to point the end of any gouge up into the work. In the first place, it is going to make a hell of a mess of the grain, and may put the whole into your face, and in the second, though many people don't consider this necessary, you don't have a good anchor on the rest at all. Work across the piece, not into it. Don't poke - peel.

Just remember:

1) If you cut wood, it doesn't fly, it falls. Newton was right.
2) Don't give away leverage. If you have a good tool and presentation, you can't feel much at all in your elbow, because the thrust of the rotating work is helping anchor that tool into the rest.
3) A clean cut shows on the shaving itself. What do your shavings look like. They should have one clean side - the trailing side.

The wood is the teacher you always have with you. Pay attention to it.

 

[CA Savoy]

MICHEL

Using a Roughing Gouge for bowl work is very dangerous.
A good catch and the tang on the gouge will break and you may wind up eating the handle.
I have seen this happen on several occasions. Students seem to think that because it's name is a Roughing Gouge it is to be used for roughing out, yes routhing out spindle work not faceplate work.

Happy and Safe Turning

CA

 

[Bill T]

To each their own and maybe I am wrong, but I am amassed how many are saying to use a roughing gouge on a bowl. I was taught this was dangerous as the gouge transitions to a flat section of metal where it goes into the handle. This is the weakest part of the gouge and it can bend or break off from the stress of cutting end grain in the typical bowl blank. When looking at the design of most roughing gouges this made sense to me.

I would suggest you order a copy of Bill Grumbine’s DVD on turning a bowl. (http://wonderfulwood.com/dvd.html) It’s excellent and will show you the proper techniques.

Bill

 

[MichaelMouse]

MICHEL

Using a Roughing Gouge for bowl work is very dangerous.
A good catch and the tang on the gouge will break and you may wind up eating the handle.
I have seen this happen on several occasions. Students seem to think that because it's name is a Roughing Gouge it is to be used for roughing out, yes routhing out spindle work not faceplate work.

Well, you're certainly not alone in your belief, however far from basic Physics you may be because of it. Not that science will ever overcome celebrity, but if the tool has a half inch of metal over the fulcrum and five behind, there's a ten to one mechanical advantage to the tang. With the gouge applied properly to the work, the section of the tang resisting is certainly 3/8" or greater, depending on manufacturer, in section. You really have to screw up to break a tang on a convex cut.

Also, when you looked at the pictures, you should have noticed that the tool is intrinsically safe when used above center because of its curvature and the curvature of the work. Sometimes when demonstrating, after my second steadying point - the bevel - is established, I take one hand off and wave, while continuing the cut. Doesn't matter which hand. The toolrest is taking the thrust, not me. All I have to do is feed.

Now anyone trying to stuff those sharp ears inside a turning had better watch out!

It's an edge on a stick. If abused, like any tool, it can lead to an accident, though if the tang broke, Newton says the handle stays where it is. Trouble comes when someone stuffs an edge up into the rotation and it doesn't break!

 

[hockenbery]

mixing endgraqin and face grain

First in practiced hands you can turn most anything with a sharpened spoon.

A agree with CA turning facegrain with a roughing gouge can be down right dangerous. I've seen it result in broken tool rests and cracked banjos.

The photo provided by Michel looks to be an engrain piece so the roughing gouge might be a good choice for the outside.

The original question was about turning a facegrain piece.

I strongly reccommend using a bowl gouge on face grain work.

Most expert turners could get away with using a roughing gouge like an english ground tool. But they just wouldn't use it unless it was the only tool in the box.

be safe,
Al

 

[Anthony Yakonick]

Here we go again

 

[Bill Boehme]

Well, you're certainly not alone in your belief, however far from basic Physics you may be because of it. Not that science will ever overcome celebrity, but if the tool has a half inch of metal over the fulcrum and five behind, there's a ten to one mechanical advantage to the tang.

Michael,

[font=&quot]Your description of mechanical advantage assumes rigid body mechanics which is an over simplification of the dynamics of the problem. Your hand/body at the back of the handle has to included in the analysis as a very soft spring and viscous damper, the tool itself is a stiff spring; and don't forget that the tool rest, banjo, bed, and wood are not rigid bodies, nor is the fulcrum location once a catch begins. It would be easy to visualize that once a catch begins, the fulcrum location will rapidly change from your favor to the wood's favor and the speed at which it occurs will be on the order of a hundred times greater than a person's reaction time. It will be all over and done before you even know that it happened.

Bill
[/font]

 

[MichaelMouse]

First in practiced hands you can turn most anything with a sharpened spoon.

A agree with CA turning facegrain with a roughing gouge can be down right dangerous. I've seen it result in broken tool rests and cracked banjos.

The photo provided by Michel looks to be an engrain piece so the roughing gouge might be a good choice for the outside.

Of course, a quick recheck would show you the obvious, that the picture is of the end grain section of a crossgrained bowl. Precisely the problem posed by the original question.

Now a question for you. Why form your opinion based on others' misuse of the tool and resulting failure? Why not study success as a model? I feel a tool is misused if it is improperly supported, which is why I would propose this quick test for those who cut other ways. Can you lift either hand from the tool as you're making the cut (even from the handle, for those who dispute leverage) and continue the cut one-handed? If so, you're cutting the wood as it wishes to be cut - or at least tolerates.

Every time I hear the argument that the cut is something only a fool would do, I recall the words of the old Tom Leherer song. "...it's so simple - so very simple - that only a child can do it."

 

[drjcbarton]

Hey Redfish,

If you want a decent (hell, very good I would say) chuck for low bucks check out Grizzly. I have one of their 4 jaw chucks that I use on my Jet MiniVS and I have been very pleased. Cost about $40 and uses the double bar tightening system.

Chris

 

[dkulze]

They reviewed the Grizzly scroll chuck in Wood magazine a bit back. It got solid marks and the general comment that, although it didn't compare to the higher end chucks, it was safe and very workable. I'll second Chris's recommendation if you're short on cash.

And as to the ongoing argument above, Weird things can happen very quickly when you're dealing with the amount of force generated at the business end of a lathe tool. I've always figured "better safe than sorry" and keep my face shield on and my hands out of the way of sharp stuff. I leave rest to the engineers and physicists cause it just don't matter when things go bang.

As to using anything but a bowl gouge for hollowing a bowl, best switch to the scraper and leave the roughing gouge alone. Yes, the right expert can "turn anything with a sharpened spoon". And David Blaine can be frozen in a block of ice for 24hrs and survive. Doesn't mean it's a good thing or that I want to try it. I'd avoid neat tricks and stick to using the right (safest and most effective) tool for the job.

Dietrich

 

[theeviltwinn]

Michael,

[font=&quot]Your description of mechanical advantage assumes rigid body mechanics which is an over simplification of the dynamics of the problem. Your hand/body at the back of the handle has to included in the analysis as a very soft spring and viscous damper, the tool itself is a stiff spring; and don't forget that the tool rest, banjo, bed, and wood are not rigid bodies, nor is the fulcrum location once a catch begins. It would be easy to visualize that once a catch begins, the fulcrum location will rapidly change from your favor to the wood's favor and the speed at which it occurs will be on the order of a hundred times greater than a person's reaction time. It will be all over and done before you even know that it happened.

Bill
[/font]

Great post Bill

I have always listened to the people who know, call them celebrities, without trying to prove them wrong. After all, if there is an easy way why look for a hard one. It's nice to see that real physics supercedes "common sense" physics and proves them right. Maybe that's why they are celebrities.

I'll stick to following the people who know better.

Mike

 

[MichaelMouse]

Great post Bill

I have always listened to the people who know, call them celebrities, without trying to prove them wrong. After all, if there is an easy way why look for a hard one. It's nice to see that real physics supercedes "common sense" physics and proves them right. Maybe that's why they are celebrities.

I'll stick to following the people who know better.

Mike

Then you'd do better to forget Bill's post, because it is meaningless. The beginning of collision is a problem in statics, with the basic laws of leverage applying. IF and only IF the tool can be brought into motion by the force of the collision will your meaty palms help to dampen the movement by deforming and absorbing part of the energy. Which isn't what you wanted to hear, but what actually happens.

As to the tool rest, once again, deflection, if any, would diminish the force to which the gouge would be subjected. Amazing that people who speak of the necessity of large cross-sections for greater reach won't acknowledge that smaller cross-sections are possible with less. But, that would be common sense, wouldn't it.

 

[hockenbery]

ooops shame on me!!

And I live so close to Disney too!

fool me once and all of that

 

[C Edward Moore]

Slow down, dangerous curve !!

As Al said, a sharpened spoon in the right hands can make good cuts. Now how about that same spoon in novice hands?

Suppose you are descending from a mountain top on a windy road so that the mountain is on your left and a sharp left turn looms ahead. A sign says "Dangerous curve ahead!" and previous experience has caused you to suspect that this curve is not banked enough. So you slow way down and creep around that curve. Then you say "Hey! That curve isn't dangerous!" And the next day you read in the paper how someone was not as cautious as you were at that same curve and went a little too fast with disastrous results. This analogy sounds remarkably like the arguments in this thread.

I'm not impressed with the supposed physics that I've read either. Theoretically, physics says you can remove a lug nut on a wheel of a vehicle going down the highway. Simply apply the correct torque and the nut will come off. The application requires a little more explanation however.

It is true that a roughing gouge can make a shearing cut on the convex exterior of a bowl mounted in the usual orientation provided the tool is working down the grain. However, a large width gouge is inviting trouble because the toolrest support cannot easily be directly under the cutting point and some torque must be countered.

The statement that a roughing gouge should not be used on a bowl mounted normally is a good one. Novices need rules that will keep them out of trouble. If a novice pointed a roughing gouge directly into a bowl blank with "corners" then the probability of a disaster is rather high and the broken tool rest or tang is likely. Chances are, 3/4" or more of stock would be engaged by the roughing gouge. If that same novice stuck his Ellsworth gouge with side grind straight into the same place he might engage 5/16" or 3/8" of stock and the tool handle length would probably allow him to escape that catch with only some noise. And we haven't even mentioned what happens if the wing of the roughing gouge is engaged.

So, let's keep the common sense rule "Don't use a roughing gouge on a bowl mounted normally!" for the sake of the newbies. If you want to use a roughing gouge on the exterior in a shear mode, then try a 1/2" roughing gouge for that cut. The smaller width makes it safer. :cool2:

 

[MichaelMouse]

It is true that a roughing gouge can make a shearing cut on the convex exterior of a bowl mounted in the usual orientation provided the tool is working down the grain. However, a large width gouge is inviting trouble because the toolrest support cannot easily be directly under the cutting point and some torque must be countered.

:

While acknowledging your disdain for hard science, how is it that any force greater than that required to release a shaving is ever exerted on the tool?

A large radius gouge is actually better than a small one, because it can get a longer shear in a shallower cut than a narrow one, and the danger points - the corners - are farther from the piece. Remember, there can only be one point of tangency, but the longer curve allows greater stability and control as there is more bevel in contact. Valid both convex and concave, though, as I stated at the outset, only a fool would let those sharp edges have a chance at catching inside a bowl. For that, a wide-radius gouge with double relief in the form of curve and corner does an excellent job. http://www.photosite.com/mmouse8/MoreMouseDroppings/5-Inside-Peel-Half-Inch-For.html It almost effortlessly produces a fair curve because it has a broad reference of where it's been to establish where it's going, minimizing ridging, as you can see if you hit the button for the next photo.

As to new folks, wasn't everything new to you at some point? New folks follow directions without prejudice. They keep the toolrest close, anchor the tool firmly to it with an overhand, and reference the bevel before cutting because they were taught to do it.

I will admit that I took the roughing the gouge away from my High Schoolers when they got ready to evacuate the inside. They were often a bit too experimentally inclined. Middle-Schoolers were only ever given forged gouges, because they were normally standing on risers to fit the lathe (poorly), and didn't have a lot of room to use the body, relying only on their arms.

 

[C Edward Moore]

physics?

While you may make disparaging remarks about my attitude toward physics, however inaccurate, your statement about the bevel is a study in contradiction.

"A large radius gouge is actually better than a small one, because it can get a longer shear in a shallower cut than a narrow one, and the danger points - the corners - are farther from the piece. Remember, there can only be one point of tangency, but the longer curve allows greater stability and control as there is more bevel in contact. "

As you correctly state, there is one point of tangency. So how can you have "more bevel in contact" if the length of bevel on each tool is the same?

Your first sentence sounds good, but it violates the basic concept of torque. In the case of a small gouge the point of contact with the stock may be 3/8" up and 3/8" over from the contact point on the toolrest. In a larger gouge the point of contact with the stock may be 5/8" up and 5/8" over from the contact point on the toolrest. If the same force is applied by the stock in each case, then less torque must be countered in the smaller case than in the larger.

Now if you are saying that if you have two scrapers, making an interior cut with the one with the largest radius of curvature will produce the smoothest cut, then I will accept that. That is, of course, provided that the radius of curvature of the tool is less than that of the inside of the bowl. Problems occur when they are the same or the reverse inequality occurs.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Then you'd do better to forget Bill's post, because it is meaningless. . .

Well, shoot . . . I guess that my 30 years experience as a control system engineer in aerospace was meaningless -- maybe I should'a listened to muh pappy 'n become a bean counter instead since I apparently don't know what I am talking 'bout.

Bill

 

[MichaelMouse]

While you may make disparaging remarks about my attitude toward physics, however inaccurate, your statement about the bevel is a study in contradiction.

"A large radius gouge is actually better than a small one, because it can get a longer shear in a shallower cut than a narrow one, and the danger points - the corners - are farther from the piece. Remember, there can only be one point of tangency, but the longer curve allows greater stability and control as there is more bevel in contact. "

As you correctly state, there is one point of tangency. So how can you have "more bevel in contact" if the length of bevel on each tool is the same?

Your first sentence sounds good, but it violates the basic concept of torque. In the case of a small gouge the point of contact with the stock may be 3/8" up and 3/8" over from the contact point on the toolrest. In a larger gouge the point of contact with the stock may be 5/8" up and 5/8" over from the contact point on the toolrest. If the same force is applied by the stock in each case, then less torque must be countered in the smaller case than in the larger.

Now if you are saying that if you have two scrapers, making an interior cut with the one with the largest radius of curvature will produce the smoothest cut, then I will accept that. That is, of course, provided that the radius of curvature of the tool is less than that of the inside of the bowl. Problems occur when they are the same or the reverse inequality occurs.

Well, the best turning teacher is tactile feedback, but it's difficult for a third party to experience that when attempting to answer the student's "what am I doing wrong?" Therefore, I go to the second best turning teacher - the form and fall of the shavings. http://www.photosite.com/mmouse8/MoreMouseDroppings/?page=1 includes a picture entitled "straight side shavings." You'll notice that they are broad, indicating that there was a good part of the edge in the cut, as I stated. You will also notice that they show a straight even cut on the trailing edge, an indication that they are being severed cleanly, which is an excellent indicator of good tool position, severing at final tangency. With a bit of observational interpretation, you can even determine my skew angle by looking at the annual rings.

As to a single point of tangency, that is not a contradiction. One point at any diameter. Since the shaving is taken across a decreasing diameter, with the gouge handle slightly down and the right flute rotated inward slightly, multiple points of tangency are available. The shavings are fairly uniform in thickness, which is why they don't curl longitudinally, though they do twist, a physical necessity. One other point of instruction is that they lie where they were created, in this case because the rest was so close and they so broad that they quickly jammed the gap. With a greater gap, they would have continued with the momentum imparted by the piece from which they were removed, down and out through the gap.

I'm sorry, but the torque moment you mention just isn't clear to me. The gouge does not twist, because it is held firmly to the rest, and is guided by contact with the workpiece. The piece rotates, and of course you realize from your recall of vector forces, that the further up from centerline you go, the longer the outward vector becomes in proportion to the downward. If your tool edge traces a chord, the force is almost directly parallel to that chord, exerting helping pressure out and slightly down against the tool rest. Are you talking about rotational force differences between the inner trailing portion of the cut and the outer leading? They're countered by the pressure of the tool being advanced.

I don't scrape inside, being a devout sandophobe, but I do lay a large radius gouge - in this case forged - on the inside surface, allowing the same rotational forces to hold the bevel against the side as the wood slides down the skewed edge, producing shavings with clean edges caused by the same skewed, rotated presentation that produced them on the outside. The action is similar to the Hout gouge or a shear scraper, save that the bevel is also guided. Once again, where the gap between rest and cut is small, and I prefer a curved rest to get more of that condition, the shavings accumulate on the tool and rest. It's often necessary to follow the cut by examining the opposite wall. Of course, unless my interior contour matches my rest, there are some places where the gap increases, allowing that mess of shavings to drop into the bowl and eject aft, or if the bowl is deep enough, sometimes they are carried as high as 3:00 o'clock or slightly earlier, following a ballistic trajectory into my hair.

 

[C Edward Moore]

torque

My comment about torque can easily be summarized. The example was merely to show why the larger tool yields a longer moment arm, so with the same downward force applied by the stock, the larger tool must overcome more torque than the smaller one. In the hands of a newbie I feel that there would be less of a chance for a catch if they are using a smaller diameter gouge rather than a large roughing gouge.

I have safely used a 1/2" roughing gouge for a finish cut on the exterior of a convex bowl. This is not really that different from using a traditional bowl gouge with a "flat" grind, such as one might use in the bottom of a bowl. I don't get big wide shavings, but the light wispy ones such as that produced by an Ellsworth gouge when the handle is dropped and a shear cut occurs with the side grind tangent to the bowl.

 

[MichaelMouse]

My comment about torque can easily be summarized. The example was merely to show why the larger tool yields a longer moment arm, so with the same downward force applied by the stock, the larger tool must overcome more torque than the smaller one. In the hands of a newbie I feel that there would be less of a chance for a catch if they are using a smaller diameter gouge rather than a large roughing gouge.

I have safely used a 1/2" roughing gouge for a finish cut on the exterior of a convex bowl. This is not really that different from using a traditional bowl gouge with a "flat" grind, such as one might use in the bottom of a bowl. I don't get big wide shavings, but the light wispy ones such as that produced by an Ellsworth gouge when the handle is dropped and a shear cut occurs with the side grind tangent to the bowl.

OK, not a player, as the cutting pressure is so low that the gouge can be held one-handed, and is never greater that that required to remove the shaving. It wants to rotate the gouge into the guiding bevel anyway. Friction on a sliding cut, as demonstrated by the shaving analysis, is less a factor than differential coefficient of friction between end and face grain.

The thin wispy shavings can be made any time by reducing the skew angle, something which slows stock removal, of course, there being no free lunch.

 

[Anthony Yakonick]

Hey guys can you answer a question so a normal person can understand. If you want a pissing contest get your own thread :mad: I've said it before if you use a roughing gouge on a bowl do it at you own risk and dont come crying when you break a gouge or loose a finger!!

 

[Steve Worcester]

I got lost here somewhere...

Did anyone answer the posted question?

 

[MichaelMouse]

I got lost here somewhere...

Did anyone answer the posted question?

Yep, I did. Direct answer, words and picture.

Then the fecal matter hit the ventilator.

 

[C Edward Moore]

From scratch

Hi, I'm very new to woodturning (except 25 years ago in the 7th grade) and I'm having a frustrating time working in hard woods. I made a crude bowl out of poplar and didn't lose any fingers so I thought I'd try purpleheart. My aim is to make a shallow dish, 9" in dia. The blank is 1.5" and roughly round from a trip thru the bandsaw.
My roughing gouge is sharp (not too sharp) and I'm having a heck of a time rounding the blank. When I get to the end-grain, it gets torn up from the gouge. I tried a very small gouge and a scraper but can't make any headway.
I realize a hard wood like purpleheart isn't the best for a beginner but I'd like to try anyway.
Any advice is welcome. Thanks.
Dave

Dave, you have identified yourself as being new to woodturning and appear to be having difficulty with the end-grain when turning a bowl with the grain perpendicular to the axis of the lathe. The suggestions I am going to list are what I would tell anyone who asked for help with this problem, as you have. Before you begin, lend someone your roughing gouge and ask them to return it in about a week or two. The safety concerns expressed in this thread are valid and as a less-experienced turner, you would do well to heed them.
1. If you want to turn bowls, then get a good bowl gouge, such as the Ellsworth gouge or Mike Mahoney gouge.
2. Put the standard side grind/ Ellsworth grind/ Irish grind on the gouge using a system similar to the Oneway/Wolverine system.
3. The Ellsworth gouge comes with a set of instructions. If you don't have them, then borrow a set from someone.
4. Practice making the cuts described on the instruction sheet on a piece of fresh wood that is selected only for the purpose of making shavings.
5. Ask an experienced turner to watch you make these cuts and to give you some help/suggestions.
6. Get a good video/DVD such as ones by David Ellsworth, Mike Mahoney, and Bill Grumbine. I overheard John Jordan say that Mike Mahoney is the best bowl-turner in the U.S. at this time. Practice the cuts the video recommends.
7. With the lathe turned off, on the exterior of a bowl-shaped practice piece whose bottom is on the tailstock side, place the left side of the bevel tangent to the bowl. Drop the handle until the gouge is about at 45 degrees from horizontal. Hold the tool like that with one hand and slowly rotate the stock with the other. You should get a very small shaving when doing this.
8. Now try #7 with the lathe turned on at a moderate or low speed. If you move the tool along the rest towards the headstock end and continue to make small shavings then you are cleaning up the surface and because the cut is shearing at the 45 degree angle the end-grain areas should improve as you repeat the cut. There is a similar cut which is a shear SCRAPE, that also cleans up end-grain problems.
9. Try to hook up with a woodturning club. Choose the person of whom you wish to ask advice very carefully. Distinguish between those who know and those who will tell you that they know.
10. Have fun and be safe.

 

[MichaelMouse]

1. If you want to turn bowls, then get a good bowl gouge, such as the Ellsworth gouge or Mike Mahoney gouge.
2. Put the standard side grind/ Ellsworth grind/ Irish grind on the gouge using a system similar to the Oneway/Wolverine system.
3. The Ellsworth gouge comes with a set of instructions. If you don't have them, then borrow a set from someone.
4. Practice making the cuts described on the instruction sheet on a piece of fresh wood that is selected only for the purpose of making shavings.
5. Ask an experienced turner to watch you make these cuts and to give you some help/suggestions.
6. Get a good video/DVD such as ones by David Ellsworth, Mike Mahoney, and Bill Grumbine. I overheard John Jordan say that Mike Mahoney is the best bowl-turner in the U.S. at this time. Practice the cuts the video recommends.
7. With the lathe turned off, on the exterior of a bowl-shaped practice piece whose bottom is on the tailstock side, place the left side of the bevel tangent to the bowl. Drop the handle until the gouge is about at 45 degrees from horizontal. Hold the tool like that with one hand and slowly rotate the stock with the other. You should get a very small shaving when doing this.
8. Now try #7 with the lathe turned on at a moderate or low speed. If you move the tool along the rest towards the headstock end and continue to make small shavings then you are cleaning up the surface and because the cut is shearing at the 45 degree angle the end-grain areas should improve as you repeat the cut. There is a similar cut which is a shear SCRAPE, that also cleans up end-grain problems.
9. Try to hook up with a woodturning club. Choose the person of whom you wish to ask advice very carefully. Distinguish between those who know and those who will tell you that they know.
10. Have fun and be safe.

Can't be a man if he doesn't smoke the same cigarette, eh? Lotta dollars in that 1,2,3 advice. Will anything short of a Stubby or Oneway do for a lathe?
Equipment does not make turnings, turners make turnings.

Of course, if 6 is true, 4,5 may be skipped.

Seven is one of the biggest problems I have with the "bowl gouge" business. If the handle is down at forty five, half the support of the toolrest, minimum, is gone. Violates what I learned and teach as turning principle two - don't give away leverage - and usually violates principle number one, which is don't put your body in front of a whirling turning. Only thing it requires to be complete is for someone to tell him to try and hold a 30 pound lump with a spindle center and tailstock pressure.

As for 8, a shear scrape is a cut without bevel support, leading to the question of why should it be necessary, when by guiding rather than "riding" the bevel, the same or better is available with a gouge. Folks get into scraping mostly as compensation for poor cutting technique. If they followed the rules for scraping when cutting, they'd save a lot of trouble. Firmly reference to the rest, the first of A-B-C, present the edge carefully - especially carefully with shear scraping, because you have no B, as is the case with interrupted circular pieces. True scraping presents such a broad edge that picking up some unsupported grain is almost inevitible.

As to 9, the person you want to listen to is the one who listens to you. A good teacher acknowledges the student, building on the base of knowledge the student already posseses. For instance, if someone is already using a roughing gouge and hasn't broken it for an outside cut, a teacher should not embarrass himself and disparage the student by saying, in effect, you can't do what you are already doing. A poor teacher is the one who attempts to assume the halo of the saints by invoking their name or implying that the limited success the student has already had is pure luck, and the only route through Purgatory is to purchase indulgence in the form of saints tools or texts, rather than improving themselves. If someone reads you their resume instead of giving an answer, or says that only the proper relic or medal can get you through - walk away and watch someone cut wood.

There's the best teacher of turning - the wood. Your objective is to cut wood so as to perturb it the least, which means that you feel the least pressure on your tool as you work, the shavings fall as they are generated, and the surface is both smooth and fairly curved.

The second-best teacher is the shaving. You should know what makes it wide or narrow, what it means to have a feathered or smooth edge, what makes it twist rapidly or slowly, and relate these to the surface obtained.

Or, you could spend money and hope.

 

[dkulze]

I gotta throw in a comment/gripe here. I keep seeing folks say that "the tool doesn't make the turner" and disparaging recommendations to track down teaching videos or avoid certain practices. I want to express some concerns this raises regarding possible bad advice to new turners.

No, the tool doesn't automatically give you turning skill. On the other hand, crappy tools with poor edges, used in ways that are kinda not designed to be can make learning to turn a miserable and unsafe experience. The post made by Ed highlights many basic recommendations and, yes, it does actually take money to buy good tools and jigs, and learning the "right" way to do things matters. Comments that imply this recommendation means you have to spend $4000 plus on a lathe to be able to turn, and that to recommend a known name's video for teaching is somehow invoking saints and the only road through purgatory, are really misleading to new turners and kinda insulting to both Ed and to the folks that put out some pretty danged good teaching videos.

The simple reality is that, if you are new to the craft, you can spend the absolute minimum and have a tough time learning, with lots of problems caused by minimally adequate to poor equipment. You can also blunder along with whatever you've figured out that kinda works and never be open to advice on what tool works best and cuts to avoid because you'd consider advice from a more experience turner as insulting bragging.

The recommendations that Ed made, to the best of my judgement, were good, basic steps to take to get decent equipment and access several well known and reliable teaching resources that will make the learning process easier. I support Ed in making them and would recommend the same steps to any turner who wants to build skills.

Good luck Dave
Dietrich

 

[Bill Boehme]

Since I have been turning for a bit less than two years (I started when I retired), I would like to say that I am in full agreement with Ed Moore's list of ten recommendations for new turners. While not necessarily the only way to skin a cat, I think that they are a very sound set of guidelines for a new turner interested in bowl turning. I also like the idea of viewing any of the various videos available (mainly because I like to soak up as much information that I can find on any subject that I am interested in). In particular, I can recommend those from David Ellsworth and Bill Grumbine since I own those and feel that they are very worthwhile. However, I also feel that while videos are good for understanding the fundamentals, they are no substitute for one-on-one tutoring from an experienced turner. To me, it is obvious that videos lack one very important aspect of training, and that is feedback on one's turning technique. I found that my own experience was to focus too much on the mechanics of using a bowl gouge. This caused my use of the tool to be too mechanical instead of working on developing my intuitive feel of using the tool to know when things were "right". I was fortunate enough to find some very good mentors in my turning club who helped me advance from "stiff mechanical newbie" to a little more relaxed and intuitive in my skills.

Bill

 

[jmr2001]

A little fun

You know if I did not like fights so much I would just go out in the garage and make a bowl. Oh there I did it, I started another fight. It’s not a garage it’s a shop. No, no that’s not right either it’s a studio - that’s it a studio. Unless of course your car had to be in it and then it is the wife’s! So ultimately it’s what ever she says it is and now I’m back to a garage. So round and round we go. Can I say wife on here or do I have to use a bunch of letters? SWMBO or something like that I think.
Was that a bowl or a vessel I said I would make? Gee, I almost started one again. Lets just call it a semi-round (in my case at least) or round thingy. I better stop before we start talking about the finish I’m going to use and if it’s food safe or not. By the way, I don’t tell anyone what the finish is so in my weird way of thinking they will never be able to come back to me if they get sick and die from eating my bowl.
Okay, I’m done for now (not really, but it sounded good). I had my fun at everyone’s expense. I really do enjoy the good heated discussions that come out of this forum. Keep up the good work and maybe some day I will be smart enough to come up with some of the subjects for the discussions! We all have to have goals. I gave up and being a good turner so this is what is left for me. Peace and Love.

 

[dkulze]

Hey Joel,

You go guy!

Sincerely,
round thingy maker Dietrich

P.S.(I managed to secure the garage/shop/studio (yah, studio, that's it) by building a divider wall so the car won't fit anymore. Slipped it right by LOML and it works like a charm)

 

[DWFII]

I'm a greenhorn...no cache to speak of, no reason to pay me any attention.

But I'm curious...if there's no merit in discussions such as these, what in the world does this forum exist for? What does any forum exist for? Showing off? Bragging? Gloating?

Or learning from the varied and various experiences of others?

Again, I'm no expert...I thought valid points were made on both sides. I have taught in my specialty (bootmaking) for almost 30 years and MM's comments about teaching, and teachers, and so forth, were spot on.

OTOH,as a newbie, I'd be hesitant to go against common wisdom and use a roughing gouge on face grain...at least until I was a bit more sure of my basic skills. But, by the objective evidence available, it can be done... and done safely. Personally, I think something can be learned from that!

Seems like what could have been a good, interesting, discussion degenerated into peevishness, if nothing else, especially towards the end.

Just another $.02 for the kitty....


DW
In the High Desert of Central Oregon

 

[C Edward Moore]

No Problem

I recently posted a list of ten items that I would recommend to a novice turner, Dave, who had posed the question about turning with a roughing gouge. This was done in an attempt to refocus on the question asked, as a result of Steve's question and implicit suggestion that we stick to topic. I do not presume to have selected the ten BEST suggestions, nor do I think that no other suggestions are valid. Rather, I hope that folks will choose one of mine to amplify or suggest additional ones that they think are valid.

As a former academic, now designated as Professor Emeritus from a major university, I am used to academic debate and a free exchange of ideas and opinions. Personal attacks do not concern me. I value the opinions of established members of the forum, such as Dietrich Kulze and Mark Mandel and our moderators. They are forthright and identify themselves. I place little or no value on opinions expressed by those who hide behind a pseudonym and lurk in the shadows. My friend, C.A. Savoy, is an experienced turner and toolmaker. He and a mutual friend, Don Riggs, deserve to be honored for their contributions to the Capital Area Woodturners with its almost 200 members, in a manner similar to a recent article in the AAW Journal. If C.A. says don't use a roughing gouge to rough out a bowl, then it is for a very good reason. He is an excellent teacher and thinks ahead so as to help novices avoid problems. In other words, C.A. has credibility with me and shadow lurkers do not, no matter whether the shadows throw rocks at me or not.

Hidden within the personal attacks are some good principles. Unfortunately, one must sort through the attacks, buzz words, and a few inaccuracies in order to find them. Catchy phrases are not substitutes for good physics, nor for good teaching.

So, let's forget all the blather and focus on answering Dave's question.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

In addition to the reference to the use of a roughing gauge which others have dealt with my first reaction is to 'sharp but not too sharp'. For any wood and especially hardwoods your tools should be as sharp as you can make them. A good part of learning to turn is learning to sharpen the tools. It's critical. That said, when turning endgrain which is involved in all turning try different tools It's the nature of some woods that a better surface is achieved with a scraper. Other woods, a gouge works best. An additional factor in this is the dryness of the wood. Any time the finish off the tool is not satisfactory, try different tools and try them at different angles, especially the scrapers. Experiment.

Malcolm Smith