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More questions than answers

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As reported by Ralph,aka n7bsn;
"Stuart Batty talking about the difference between US and UK Turners, noting that UK Turners all have better techniques, but most have no sense of design, while US turners have design drilled into them from day one, but are always looking for the quick and easy way to turn something."

I tend to agree with Stuart, But, why? Is it that so many North American turners come to the craft later in life. Or maybe because they jump to the artsy side quicker, perhaps too soon? Or maybe the UK folks are mostly products of the apprenticeship programs and learned the craft doing production work. Why are the "Down Under turners" so adept at pushing the design envelope?

So many questions, any thoughts/ answers from the forum folks?
 

hockenbery

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Jake an interesting observation
Someone once said something like: All generalizations including this one are false......

I've had two UK students in the past year both had a keen interest in design.

What I see as a generality is that folks trained as artists who come to woodturning seem to do more creative work than those trained in the craft trying to be artists.

The UK has a Registry of Professional Turners:
"There are four main criteria governing ELIGIBILITY for inclusion on the Register.

The Register is open to individual craftsmen and craftswomen,
whose work, in any material, is created using some form of lathe,

1. who earn a substantial part of their living from this work,
2. most of whose work is intended to be judged on aesthetic as well as functional grounds,
3. who have demonstrated to an Assessor that they have a personal commitment to high standards of design, execution and finish."

In the US we don't have any corresponding measure of competency.

Happy Turning
AL
 
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............................................................................
What I see as a generality is that folks trained as artists who come to woodturning seem to do more creative work than those trained in the craft trying to be artists...........................Happy Turning
AL

Al, That is one answer that didn't occur to me. Thank you. Thinking back, some of the better known turners have have a fine arts or music background.
 

john lucas

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I have sort of observed the same thing and I think it might be because a lot of English turners do spindles and production type work. Production work develops technique. When you turn a hundred of something you skills with the tool improve dramatically.
Many turners in our country turn out just a few bowls or hollow vessels a month if that. Even then they might use a scraper to slug away at the piece and eventually get the form right.
I may be wrong in this. It could be simply that someone who teaches over there is simply stressing tool techniques.
I think we tend to stress form heavily because we have more of an "Art" market over hear. How you achieve that form is irrelevant as long as the piece is successful. If your doing production turning, form is also critical but tool technique comes to the front because you must produce the part accurately, and quickly and good tool technique helps achieve this.
I'll pose this question with Mark Baker who is the editor of Woodturning and has traveled a lot in both countries.
 
R

Ron Sardo

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When I started turning, I remember the expects telling me "Worry about how to use the tool first then worry about design."

I was never built that way, I had a design in mind and wanted to figure out how to get the tool to do what I wanted. I know I made an awful lot of wood chips until I finally got the shape I wanted. Thanks goodness wood grows on trees. I think many turners from the States who have come into the field recently think this way too.

I don't have any interest in becoming a production turner. If I did, I would have worked on learning how to use the tools differently. It's just a different approach, it all depends on what direction you want to go.

There is nothing wrong with learning a quick and easy way to turn something. I know I can rough out three bowls faster if I use a McNaughton Coring system then it would take me to hog out all the wood from the insides of a single bowl. How can that be bad?
 
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Why not do what you like and allow others to do the same? This art/craft stuff comes up all the time, and it's not always the artsy claiming a higher calling as it seems here. Isn't there a "wood is good" bunch out there that eschews Burning, piercing, carving, dying and Bondo altogether? I think they consider theirs a higher calling.

I like Shaker, some like Hepplewhite, and some even like the gilt and Gesso of the Second Empire. No matter the culture, there's some version of de gustibus non est disputandum, because it's one of those universal truths. To do so promotes only division, not "diversity."
 
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The Guilds

In europe,including England turners studied under a master or journeyman. The had not only learn all skills of "the trade" but also had to do it as required by the boss. The boss actually graded the turner on their efforts.
Richard Raffin was trained under the British system. Design had very little to do with their years in the field. Most don't have college degrees. Some have trade school training. Thirty years ago some like Raffin broke out of the mold after seeing the work of the likes of David Ellsworth, Rudy Osolnick. The American Masters of the seventies were making a living making what they chose to and that which would sell. A new frontier for those overseas.
Peter
 

Max Taylor

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[SIWhat Michael says makes a lot of sense. I am 82 yrs young and probably will never be an 'old master' but I enjoy trying all facets of wood turning that strikes my fancy. Max.ZE="3"][/SIZE]
 
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Why not do what you like and allow others to do the same? This art/craft stuff comes up all the time, and it's not always the artsy claiming a higher calling as it seems here. Isn't there a "wood is good" bunch out there that eschews Burning, piercing, carving, dying and Bondo altogether? I think they consider theirs a higher calling.

Michael, I didn't consider my questions as promoting “one side or the other.” In all facets of woodworking/turning I value good joinery and beautiful woods. I may not appreciate a particular design but give full credit to the obvious effort, workmanship/craftsmanship, and creativity of the finished product. I don't believe any group has a “higher calling” regardless of their stature or self image.

I won't bore you or the forum with all the fine turners,UK and US, whose work I admire. It is too subjective an undertaking.
 
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John Jordan

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I don't buy any of it. There are plenty of less skillful turners as well as incredibly talented turners everywhere. I've taught in eight or nine different countries, and there's really not much difference.

The good turners anywhere are certainly not looking for quick and easy-that's what makes them good. :) The amateur/hobby turners in the US have pushed the technical limits of woodturning to a great degree.
John
 
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Jake, one of the things that is perhaps lost on turners from the Northern countries ( UK, USA etc) is how lucky they are as they can buy almost any tool/machine and often at very reasonable prices. I believe this is one of the reasons why Aussie and NZ turners have been more 'inventive' as they are accustomed to making things themselves.(we don't have easy access to tools and they are expensive)
I think it is also one of the reasons why USA turners push the limits as they can easily access the 'high end' tools eg: dental drills, micromotors etc and once you have the good tools the sky is the limit.
 
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Jake, one of the things that is perhaps lost on turners from the Northern countries ( UK, USA etc) is how lucky they are as they can buy almost any tool/machine and often at very reasonable prices. I believe this is one of the reasons why Aussie and NZ turners have been more 'inventive' as they are accustomed to making things themselves.(we don't have easy access to tools and they are expensive)
I think it is also one of the reasons why USA turners push the limits as they can easily access the 'high end' tools eg: dental drills, micromotors etc and once you have the good tools the sky is the limit.
Yep , it's a real bugga being at the end of the tool chain :(

I noticed a comment in a post up above about most of the turners outside of the USA not
having college degrees .
If by collage , university was meant , then yep , thats about right , here in NZ anyway .
Not every country has university degree courses for everything under the sun :D
We just teach other ....... and turn out some bloody good work :cool2:

PS. Some clubs run classes , but no portable international qualification that I know of .
 
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john lucas

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I'm not sure what a college degree has to do with it. :) I have a degree in Health and Phys. Ed. and I don't think that helped my woodturning (and I still don't know how I ended up as a Photographer) Most turners I know have degrees in business, engineering, and computer science. Not sure how that helps turning either other than engineers pushing the mechanical envelope. It did push me into metal working because I had a course in Machining in college that fueled my desire to learn that.
I think a whole lot of turning are your peers and possible the magazines. You learn from other turners or experiment on your own. In the US we see a lot of artistic turning so you kind of want to go that way.
What about the French. They do some cool stuff. Of course I've long admired what is happening in NZ. I took a class with Ray Key last summer and he gave us a great history on how turning progressed in England. Utilitarian items sell well over there so that's what people tend to make.
 
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Glenn and Jock, being at the end of the tool pipeline I'm sure is a limiting factor, but not the whole answer.. Many new and less well off turners in the U.S. and around the world are required by economics to become “inventiveâ€, as you put it. Just follow any of our forums, lots of questions on making do without the expensive tool. The down under Guilds seem, to the casual observer at least, to hold the key to the new and sometimes exciting work that you and your mates produce.

I also must plead guilty to, at least in my mind, putting NZ, Australia, to some degree Canada, under the U.K. banner. That's why Stuart's question so confounded me when referring to the lack of design in the U.K.
 
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I also must plead guilty to, at least in my mind, putting NZ, Australia, to some degree Canada, under the U.K. banner.

How on earth can anybody make that mistake ? :D
They are all thousands of kilometers apart .
Two of them , Australia and New Zealand are in the Southern hemisphere , a different hemisphere from the United Kingdom , which is on the island of Britain in the Northern hemisphere .
Canada is separated from the U.K. , by a rather large ocean . :rolleyes:
 
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Going back...

To my original post.... I put it in the humorous stories from the Utah Symposium, as the way Stuart told he, he intended it to be a joke


TTFN
Ralph
 
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Jake, To expand on my previous post, I wonder that peoples willingness to try new ideas and question 'tradition' comes from various sources. One of those sources is having to become resourceful. eg: Making your own lathes and tools rather than going to the local shop and buying a 'solution' that your mate has told you works.
Another might also be the climate. It is approaching winter here and we can still walk around at night in shorts and a shirt, so are outside more and exposed to nature and travel great distances on holidays. So are exposed to many things in our natural environment.

Not that we are alone on these, but I think they must help turners with their ability to move away from 'tradition'
 
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Ron Sardo

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How on earth can anybody make that mistake ? :D
They are all thousands of kilometers apart .
Two of them , Australia and New Zealand are in the Southern hemisphere , a different hemisphere from the United Kingdom , which is on the island of Britain in the Northern hemisphere .
Canada is separated from the U.K. , by a rather large ocean . :rolleyes:

But they are only inches apart on the map!!!:eek:
 
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Come on Jock what mistake, Canada aside, you folks all drive on the left. That must mean you are all related, right!:eek::D

Ralph, many controversial subjects are couched in tongue-in-cheek speak.:cool2: Gotta admit, there is some humor in this thread.:rolleyes:
 
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Come on Jock what mistake, Canada aside, you folks all drive on the left. That must mean you are all related, right!:eek::D
By that reasoning you yanks are ruskies :D
Has anyone come up with a diagnosis regarding the insanity that had you fighting that cold civil war for half a century ? :rolleyes:
 
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By that reasoning you yanks are ruskies :D
Has anyone come up with a diagnosis regarding the insanity that had you fighting that cold civil war for half a century ? :rolleyes:

That's the rub Jock, any all encompassing statement will eventually rise up and bite us in the back side. It can be fun trying to dodge the the teeth though.:D
 
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